I'm running Silent Tide for PFS Monday night, and spent Sunday in a test run with friends who don't play PFS. My trial run was... a trial. Any advice for these issues?
- Opening encounter, they captured a War Hounder. First question during interrogation: "Where is this Nessian that Yargos is talking about?" I was completely baffled -- there is no way I can imagine that the guys who are taking orders from Nessian will not know Nessian's location, which does an end-run around the entire rest of the module! Help?
- The beginning text is sooooo long that people were zoning out. Monday night it will be LOUD, so a 5-minute monologue isn't going to be heard. Since it will not change the outcome of the story, am I allowed to shorten the read-aloud so that it gets them on track quickly?
- I couldn't find anything that described the doors of Nessian's tower. They might even be unlocked, but since the War Hounders are listed as readying for "when the PCs break in" I assume they have to break in. But how? What DC for breaking down the door? Did I miss it?
- Building on the previous point, when doing an ability check (strength to crash open door), is that just "part of your move" as you run up & slam into the door? Or is it a standard action? I let them use moves, and get 2 attempts per round. Same with the drowning guys and their handcuffs -- move action to burst chains, which thus allows for two checks per round. Wrong?
- When doing Aid Another for skill checks, the rules leave it open-ended if a skill allows for assistance. It mentions opening a lock as being un-assistable, I presume because you can't have multiple people shoving lock picks inside the tumbler at the same time. So for the music box puzzle, they wanted to assist on the perform check, but I'm thinking "you can't have two people playing the same flute at once, so no." I've never seen two people going at a wind instrument together. Players were miffed. Should I stand my ground on that? They can keep trying, so it's not a big deal, but the players questioned it.
- The towers that fell into a pyramid shape: players wanted to run/climb/scramble up the angled walls. There is no climb DC listed, but I figured since it's on a slant to some unknown degree, the DC should only be 8, maybe even 5 like a knotted rope. Yeah?
- When the first player got to the top, I had Nessian up there (assumed crenelated tower, probably wrong to do that?) and he got a natural 20 followed by a confirmation roll of natural 20 to use his screaming arrow on the wall climber PC. With everything rolled, he did 26 points in a single shot and made the final fight epic. This is not a complaint or question, I was just happy to open the fight so shockingly well. The PC lived, but he was scared for a moment!
Any tips or advice is appreciated. Thanks!
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Outshyn: Are they playing PFS now? I mean was this their first PFS experience?
Ill address some of your points:
1) You could say that they met Nessian outside the city at some location and that they never found out where he moved his base too although poor Job (one of the dead guys) was a good friend of Nessians. Like you were thinking, you dont want to give away his location just yet (you could however give them a false red herring location)
2) Many people have issues with boxed text. Some players take notes, others dont. Personally if its really long I tend to spice it up a bit by inserting other comments about players characters attention skills. Ask THEM questions about what the person giving the quest is saying.. comment on a party members baboon companion. etc
3) Ill have to check into this. The DC to break open a simple door is 13. Id say all the doors are simple unless it states otherwise (And season 0 scenarios rarely do). They probably tried to wedge the doors shut.
4) Its a standard action to break down a door. Generally it requires an action to open any door, but because someone has gone to the effort of securing the door (at least to the point where effort is required to open it) then breaking down the door is a standard action.
Its definetly not a move action to bust chains. For starters as the dudes will sink, a swim action (move) will be needed and then a strength or disable device to bust them chains open.
5) Aid another is interesting. I dont know what you do for social checks but i generally rule if the player said nothing in a conversation i generally dont permit them to aid someone else in the discussion (bluff /dip or otherwise). In terms of picking locks. Now in terms of Assist other with the musical flute.. think outside the box. One person might assist the primary by more clearly defining what notes have to be sounded to the person actually playing the flute. Both are uses of the perform skill just.One person might play their own flute first and then the person doing it for the group might follow along.
Obvious the person second is the primary, the first maybe is assisting.
6) Im bad with climb dcs so Ill pass on this
7) Awesome. Although if he was a level 1 character why isnt he or she dead dead?
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I'll take the climb question.
While the towers are slanted into eachother, the map clearly shows that their bases are adjoined. This makes it not a slope but a wall. That rules out DC 0. Now I cannot see any of those towers to have adequate handholds equivalent to the branches of a tree, so that rules out DC 15. At the lowest, I would say a DC 20.
All that said, I would strongly warn players that one can only climb at quarter speed (or half if you take a -5 penalty to the climb). That means even a character with a 30-foot movement can progress 1 square per move action (2 squares with the aforementioned penalty). Seeing as the central tower is at least three stories high, and with one perceived entry-point at the top... actually, let 'em climb. Then pelt them with arrows once they get near the top. Take damage? Succeed at a climb check or fall. }=)
I thought the map was just depicting the tops of the buildings, where they fell together, for walking on. I assume the base of the buildings is about 15' away, which puts the slant at about 45 degrees. But you're saying that they're actually straight up and didn't fall inward?
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Here ya go makin' me open my PDF =P
I am saying that they were brought together and there collapsed or leaned towards the center. The first line of the Pyramid's description is that it's not really a pyramid at all. It also mentions that each of the three towers has a makeshift guardhouse for the henchies. Guardhouses are typically on the ground floor.
One thing to note about PFS maps is that they are typically done by level. So the ground level in this instance is all three of the guardhouses and the lowest level of the tower which you can actually climb. Note that there are no second stories in the cross-section beneath. This would imply that there is no standable terrain.
So the bases of the towers are together, just the tops have collapsed toward the central building, creating a "teepee-like wreck". In hindsight, this probably would reduce the climbing difficulty to 15, but the restriction of quarter movement should still keep it from being viable.
Matthew,
Thanks for the tips! The test run was with people who do not play in PFS and do not wish to. It's the 3rd PFS module they've played through, but they've never had a "PFS experience." They don't know what a chronicle sheet is, nor what prestige points are, etc.
Regarding #4, can you point me at official text? All we found was text that said ability checks are possible, but nothing about what type of action it would be. In fact, ability checks are mentioned under the skills section, and many skills are move actions or even free actions, so I'm still feeling confused about what to rule for this during Monday night's game.
Regarding #7, they had 3rd level characters, all pre-gens that I gave them for the game day. The PC in question went to -7 but a friend poured a Cure Light Wounds potion down his gullet, and they both got back into the fight.
Sior,
Thanks! I think I understand your point now, but then it seems like the guards in the guard towers are not towering over anyone. At ground level they cannot see over the terrain much at all, even though it says they have an "excellent vantage point." Do we call BS on that text? I'm fine doing that, but just, I'd love it if the text made sense with what I'm actually trying to run and I'm not quite feeling it, yet....
EDIT: to anyone, one more question: because this is a 3.5 edition module and we're not allowed to change/update them, what do I do about rules that are "informing" the stat block? For example, the undead. Old 3.5 rules say they're immune to crits. We can't update the stat block, must use 'em as 3.5 intended, so are these undead immune to crits, even though in Pathfinder they wouldn't be? In addition, Nessian is listed as having a tactic of using Combat Expertise to take a full -5 to his attack roll to gain a +5 to his AC. Combat Expertise doesn't work like that in Pathfinder, but due to the "never update except for spot+listen becoming perception" rule, Nessian must have a weird special Combat Expertise that doesn't exist outside of the module, right?
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In regards to 4:
Aid Another
You can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check. (You can't take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone. The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.
Thats from the paizo website. Note that it dosnt define how many can help. It says sometimes you cant get any help, sometimes you can but only a limited number.
I generally go with 2 additional helps. Thus if someone is talking to the orc, 2 other people can help (but again its never a case of 'Can I just roll diplomacy?'). People can pool their collective knowledge skills to aid someone trying to remember how a bridge can be raised (knowledge engineering).
To be honest it all comes down sometimes to reality. 2 people cannot both sit in front of the same lock picking it. 4 people can get together to theorise what an arcane mark means.
Treat some cases as immovable things that happen. Treat other cases on a case by case basis.. if someone comes up with something really good, then let them have it.
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To be honest it all comes down sometimes to reality. 2 people cannot both sit in front of the same lock picking it. 4 people can get together to theorise what an arcane mark means.
I definitely agree with this point. Similarly, I do not allow aids on Knowledge checks while in combat to identify qualities of the monsters. This is a what you remember check. (Besides, at that point you're in combat and aiding is a Standard action.)
So far as the vantage point goes, I think they still have a vantage point. It's not elevated, but they can see everything out their doors, flat terrain with the exception of some boulders. But that's just my justification.
As far as the 3.5-PF translation goes, I typically just run it as written. However, I do let seasoned players know that this was written for 3.5, so things may not be as they expect them to be. For instance, there is one scenario where a group of baddies rely on spiked chains to attack creatures from reach. Well, in PF, spiked chains don't have reach anymore! It would totally nerf the encounter if I ran it to PF rules. So in keeping with the spirit of the game, I would just keep it to 3.5. Adjust as you feel necessary. Some may disagree with me but I see the Black Echelon to have simply "undead traits", so you are still using the 3.5 stat block but can apply the PF "undead traits" to it with no difficulty. You can even do the same with the Combat Expertise if you feel so inclined. But again, others may disagree with me. The whole translation thing is a large grey area that no one seems to agree upon, hahaha.
Thanks guys. I'm going to run it literally 3.5 all the way. So those undead cannot be critted, nor can they be sneak attacked, and Nessian gets a full +5 to his AC, bringing it to 24. I appreciate all the help!
Also, one more whopper of a question to close it out. I didn't know this at first, but apparently spells are supposed to continue after the caster's death (which makes total sense now -- you wouldn't want permanent effects to suddenly disappear upon the caster's death). So if you're fighting a caster's summoned monster and you kill the caster, you still have to deal with the summoned monster, at least until the time of the spell ends.
So... supernatural abilities work the same way? The Black Echelon undead have a supernatural mist ability, which grants 20% miss chance. It says it's a standard to activate it, but it doesn't say anything about how long it lasts. Do they have to use a standard every round? Does it work like a similar spell? If so, will it continue just like a spell -- so if they die, the fog continues to enshroud the place until some number of rounds have passed?
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Thanks guys. I'm going to run it literally 3.5 all the way. So those undead cannot be critted, nor can they be sneak attacked, and Nessian gets a full +5 to his AC, bringing it to 24. I appreciate all the help!
Please don't do that. If you are running for PFS you must use Pathfinder rules. The whole point of organized play is that we all use the same rules in the same scenario as written to ensure that play experience is balanced. If you are using different rules to make encounters harder you are unjustly punishing your players, robbing them of resources they shouldn't have to spend on encounters that none of the rest of the campaign had to encounter.
It might not seem like much of a change, but that kind of drain can affect the whole campaign. What happens several levels and several harder encounters later when those characters run at Gencon in a few months, but sit at a table with normal characters? Those guys are a few hundred gold short on potions and wands they could have used to save others. After the TPK, they start comparing histories and realize their home GM has been slowly draining them just to make the encounters harder. Now, no one wants to play with guys you GMd because they know they can't carry their weight. Then on the way home they have stop to pick up torches and pitchforks to head over to your house....
See, just a bad idea. Run with the standard rules. Don't get pitchforked by your players.
Also, one more whopper of a question to close it out. I didn't know this at first, but apparently spells are supposed to continue after the caster's death (which makes total sense now -- you wouldn't want permanent effects to suddenly disappear upon the caster's death). So if you're fighting a caster's summoned monster and you kill the caster, you still have to deal with the summoned monster, at least until the time of the spell ends.
So... supernatural abilities work the same way? The Black Echelon undead have a supernatural mist ability, which grants 20% miss chance. It says it's a standard to activate it, but it doesn't say anything about how long it lasts. Do they have to use a standard every round? Does it work like a similar spell? If so, will it continue just like a spell -- so if they die, the fog continues to enshroud the place until some number of rounds have passed?
The ability description says it works like natural fog, so without further info I'd say yes, it sticks around. Probably much longer than a few rounds, since it takes a while and some wind for natural fog to disperse.
The monster description says it is a full-round action to start the mist, not a standard.
Huh? The whole discussion was about how we should *not* change things, and that includes keeping the feats as they were written/expected, back when the 3.5 module was created. We're following the rules for PFS by doing this, so that someone playing with me now will have the exact same experience that everyone had 6 years ago during the same playthrough. Why wouldn't that be right? The way you worded it, you sound like you think keeping those rules is not only wrong, but against the spirit of the "don't change anything" edict from PFS management. You refer to it as "changing things to make it harder" when in fact it is running the module as written. It's actually no changes. So you can see how I might be confused by "no changes" being called "you changed it." I guess I could use some help understanding that.
What happens several levels and several harder encounters later when those characters run at Gencon in a few months, but sit at a table with normal characters? Those guys are a few hundred gold short on potions and wands they could have used to save others. After the TPK, they start comparing histories and realize their home GM has been slowly draining them just to make the encounters harder.
No, they realize that I played it following the rules as stated in the Guide, and other DMs changed things that they were not allowed to. Do you see what I mean?
Also, I realized after posting that I have to use the undead traits from 3.5 -- if I don't, I have to update their hit points and a whole lot of other things too. Those trait blocks dictate a lot of the stat block.
Also, this:
The monster description says it is a full-round action to start the mist, not a standard.
...is for the tier 1-2 module. I'm running tier 4-5, which has a monster stat block that says it's standard.
EDIT: This is from page 32 of the PFS Guide:
Scenarios are to be run with minimal changes by GMs, limited to adding CMB/CMD scores to NPCs and monsters and using newly combined skills such as Stealth and Perception instead of Move Silently and Spot. If a creature in the scenario also appears in the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2, or Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 3 and maintains the same CR between both rules sets, you may use the Pathfinder RPG stats in place of the 3.5 stats. This is the only substitution allowed in these scenarios.
None of the monsters in Silent Tide are in the Bestiary 1/2/3, so they don't qualify for being updated. So, help? How do I square what you're saying with what is written in the Guide?
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Huh? The whole discussion was about how we should *not* change things, and that includes keeping the feats as they were written/expected, back when the 3.5 module was created. We're following the rules for PFS by doing this, so that someone playing with me now will have the exact same experience that everyone had 6 years ago during the same playthrough. Why wouldn't that be right? The way you worded it, you sound like you think keeping those rules is not only wrong, but against the spirit of the "don't change anything" edict from PFS management. You refer to it as "changing things to make it harder" when in fact it is running the module as written. It's actually no changes. So you can see how I might be confused by "no changes" being called "you changed it." I guess I could use some help understanding that.
I apologize. When I read blanket statements like "just going to run it literally 3.5 all the way" and then specifically mention all of the harder stuff of that edition, and knowing this is your test run, I assumed you had not read the conversion rules in the guide, or willfully ignoring them. That argument/sentiment has shown up regularly on these boards most often for season 0 play.
What happens several levels and several harder encounters later when those characters run at Gencon in a few months, but sit at a table with normal characters? Those guys are a few hundred gold short on potions and wands they could have used to save others. After the TPK, they start comparing histories and realize their home GM has been slowly draining them just to make the encounters harder.
No, they realize that I played it following the rules as stated in the Guide, and other DMs changed things that they were not allowed to. Do you see what I mean?
Also, I realized after posting that I have to use the undead traits from 3.5 -- if I don't, I have to update their hit points and a whole lot of other things too. Those trait blocks dictate a lot of the stat block.
That's what makes converting season 0 so tricksy, yet important. The campaign experience has changed already, now we have to sure those differences are applied evenly. I love this scenario, it is still in my top 10 favorites. I applaud your coming to the boards to get advice on how to do it correctly.
Also, this:The monster description says it is a full-round action to start the mist, not a standard.
...is for the tier 1-2 module. I'm running tier 4-5, which has a monster stat block that says it's standard.
EDIT: This is from page 32 of the PFS Guide:
Scenarios are to be run with minimal changes...
Again, I assumed being a test run this would be a 1-2 run. But advice still stands, the fog should stick around after monster death.
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I played in Outshyn's game last night, and I have to say it was run wonderfully. We were fairly low-level for subtier 4-5, but were able to handle the challenge. Some of the non-combat challenges were handled adroitly and with aplomb.
Rescuing the chained prisoners from the cliff bottom was helped by the swimming dinosaur familiar taking the thread lead-line down to the chains, so the wolf-mounted cavalier could work on hauling them up.
The safes were a blast to work through, and we really showed up the lackey. It didn't take long, and Outshyn brought the scenario to life with our making arrangements to have the Society get first bid in with Ol' Torchy on the interesting stuff, like the ancient Taldan music.
The final fight was a challenge until our fourth-level wizard levitated the cavalier and mount on up to meet Nessian at the same time the rogue opened the main downstairs door and the eidolon climbed to a flanking position. Outshyn used the PF modifications for combat expertise, and we were able to take Nessian down, eventually.
All-in-all, a good scenario with an expertly prepared GM made for a delightful session.
Oh, and the cavalier, working off my diviner, was able to get everyone the Lookout feat! Great fun.
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I'm sorry, I'm still a bit confused. When I run Silent Tide, the undead can be critted because undead in PFRPG can be critted. I run feats like Power Attack and Combat Expertise as they are in PFRPG because the PHB is not a legal source. The only thing I don't change is the statblock. I don't change hit points, I don't change attack bonuses, I don't change AC or Saves. I keep the statblock the same, but I use PFRPG rules. Isn't that what we're meant to do?
As for the party jumping the rails, I had this happen once. I told them flat out where the bad guy's hideout was. On the way to the hideout, I had the other encounters trigger and gave the players the choice to stop the mayhem or go straight to the hideout. The only encounter we wound up skipping was Torch, and that was no great loss.
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Apologies for the necro! I was just going to add that, since there's no statement for it one way or another, I'm going to have the Black Echelon Operative's "Enshrouding Mist" ability dissipate in the same way as a fog cloud spell: 4 rounds in moderate wind (11+ mph) or 1 round in strong wind (21+ mph). Now I just have to figure out how to decide how strong the winds are during the night the scenario takes place :)
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I'm running this scenario just for a home group and not for PFS credit, so I thought I might add a little to the ending to better round out the PCs' role in stopping Silent Tide.
My plan is that, after defeating Nessian and finding all of the signal lanterns, Yargos looks up the abort code and realizes it's too complex for just one person to handle all of the lanterns in the correct order and correct time spacing. So he and the PCs race to an abandoned lighthouse. From the top, they can see in the moonlight the hordes of undead starting to clamber onto the beach from the depths below.
Sending the complex abort code requires the PCs correctly follow Yargos' verbal instructions by a skill challenge variation. Three PCs need to make a DC 7 Intelligence or Linguistics check to follow the code in the same round (other PCs can aid another). If any of the three checks fail, the abort code is not properly sent and the invasion continues. The PCs can try again, but time grows ever shorter. If they fail again, they'll then get a third and final try to get it right before it's too late to stop the invasion!
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I ran the scenario tonight and had that little extra ready, but it turned out not to be necessary because (after a debate) the PCs decided to go to the cathedral and return the tune rather than head straight for Nessian. With the song restored, there was no longer any particular hurry in sending the abort code. All in all, it was a fun session even if the plot was a little shaky here and there . . .