|
I think a lot of the issue comes down to having to build an AP which extensively uses a new rule system while the kinks of the rule system are being worked out. I think this led to underestimation of just what the mythic PCs could do, and overestimation of the abilities of Mythic monsters.
I definitely wouldn't judge all APs by this one. And although I own this AP and love the plot elements, I would not want to run it without a whole lot more experience in running adventure paths and GMing in general.
Agreed completely.
That is why I prefer Wotc 3E core for D&D. All levels of play at the start with the core. Yet Dms need to at least anticipate that a Mythic Cleric can feed a army of 400+ as well. I played in a Epic level game. The DM kept nerfing everything. It stopped being Epic. Both sides agreed to stick to levels 1-20.
The trick at least for players is to insist that everyone have a cheat sheet for their characters. Before the last AP I was in ended I played a Bard. I had a sheet pf all the bonuses players and myself recievied from Bardic Performance and spells. It helps speed up play. Another player who was the Cleric just kept looking at the core for his spells. The DM kept skipping his turn as that slows down play. Espcially at higher levels. Herolab was a big help as well.
Good opinions stated . . .
I honestly don't think the problem here is that players can do legendary things that future bards will sing about with relish. Mythic play means players being able to do mythic things that mere mortals can't accomplish. That's cool. I'm all about that!
In fact, I seem to recall someone above equating it to Herculean acts of power and grandeur. How awesome is that?!? When I put that mental image in my head, it's just WOW, that'd be cool!
However, as cool as great feats of Herculean effort are to perform, there comes a time when having no challenge against them just makes it boring! I'm reading posts here (and in another thread that's been quite consistently updated) where GMs are hand-waving encounters because there is no challenge anywhere in this AP, if run as written (and sometimes even with changes made).
Hercules walking right up to Hades in his own realm and curb-stomping him in less than six seconds without even straining a muscle isn't mythic, it's comedy. Such ridiculousness can't be taken seriously. That's the equivalent to what players are doing to Demon Lords in their own realms in this AP using mythic rules. It's not fun, man. It's laughable, and that's not a winning AP.
Let me also toss out my agreement with Jawa, though. I own every Paizo AP save one, and their quality has always been top notch. This AP sought to use a new system of rules, and, unfortunately, it fell down. This wouldn't dissuade me from purchasing another Paizo AP using the mythic rules in the future even, because I believe the company can learn from this one and improve upon it. And would! There's a learning curve in everything. Just because one AP falls down doesn't mean there's a problem with the process. One failure provides for a learning moment. It's not the end of the world.
|
|
I have had to rework the all APs I ran. So I assumed WOR was not different. I did expect them perhaps wrongly that being Mythic power they would have optimized the npc and encounters. Apprently not. I get your point SC and agree with it.I'm seeing it in regular APS as well. I have both a Gunslinger and a Alchemist in the group. The gunslinger is optimized. If I don't give even minor npc or creatures double in some case triple hp he one shots most creatures. Including BBEGs. The alchemist is optimized as well yet not as much. Yet he has bombs with status effects. When the enemy is both staggered and nauseated it kind of makes it hard to enjoy running the game.
My advice is to cheat sometimes. The npc makes his save more than once. The enemy has more hp. Tailor the encounters to match the pcs. If some players simply ask them if they just want to breeze through every encounter or a challenge. I'm probably going to do do the same for this AP.
IIRC, mythic tiers were thought to be worth 10 levels or PC CR originally, but playtesting they switched a tier to equal .5 levels. Which means the Demon lords top out at CR 30 instead of 35 as originally intended.
I wonder how much it would help to just half the number of tiers PCs get in WoR?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's begun.
Because of the cleric's Inspired Spell ability, the party had no hesitation starting the citadel with the fighter "slightly" buffed: Alter Self, Bull's Strength, Good Hope, and Weapon of Awe, combined with a bard's Inspire Courage. For those counting, that's +7 attack, +9 damage, even before things like Haste (+1 attack) or Prayer (+1 attack and damage). And yes, they all do stack.
Then there's his -3/+9 mythic power attack with a 1-handed weapon, doubling to +18 on a crit.
So the fighter was walking around with a not-unheard-of static line of +21/+16 1d6+28, with a critical that did 2d6+74.
Unfortunately, he just turned 8th level, so he took Improved Critical on his scimitar. Critting on a 15-20, plus the ability to use a mythic surge to take an extra attack when needed turned the first few fights of the citadel stupid.
Our wonderful 160 HP barbarian? Hit-crit-mythic surge for another crit. Dead. Our 112 HP vrock? Hit-crit. Unconscious.
As the sorceress' player said post game, "Yeah, I got to spend the night following the party and watching the fighter kill things."
So what were the major issues?
- Inspired Spell lets the cleric spam buffs on the fighter, not worrying about healing because she can always use mythic surges for that.
- Remove mythic power attack and the fully-buffed fighter is down to 1d6+22/2d6+44. MUCH easier to keep as-written creatures alive against that.
- Remove the swift, "Oh, it's still up? I'll use one more mythic surge to kill it," champion ability and the barbarian woman would have lived.
So last night was a bit of an anomaly, but watching what mythic was doing to the fighter's damage output as soon as he had Improved Critical is making us already discuss what rules we're going to need to change. (We've really been enjoying "rolling criticals", but even without them the fighter can one-round most foes in the dungeon, so we think they have to go.)
I had started to use the critical hit deck rather than the core rules for crits. I think that they are more enjoyable and it removes one shotting monsters and PCs with one hit.
As for buffs; just wait until you have mythic heroism on each PC for the length of the adventuring day. Pretty much every fight needs to have cheap and easy ways to remove buffs.
I'm using a Hexcrafter/WHW with grab and constrict to great effect, although arcane accuracy with an enormous INT bonus helps!
Has anyone wondered if it was due to the tactics that certain encounter were pushovers in WotR.
I'm asking because we got a TPK in WotR.
This was a group that one shotted Karzoug in WotR, trounced RoW, and had no problems at all in SS.
Yet, in WotR, they got a TPK.
Okay. Two things that I've mentioned before.
First, if you reduce Mythic Power Attack to the same effect as Mythic Deadly Aim, you lose half of the brokenness of MPA.
Second, if you modify the Critical Hit system so that the only thing multiplied by the critical hit is the damage dice rolled for the weapon (so a 1d8 x3 critical would be 3d8 on a critical, and then add in other bonuses), then you eliminate the one-shot kills which both eliminate the viable threat of enemies... and of threats to the PCs. (In essence it's treating critical hits like regular Vital Strike.)
NobodysHome, you could even keep your rolling-criticals in this case. The only thing that you get is extra damage dice. Thus if your fighter criticaled, he'd be doing 3d8+28. If the "rolling" aspect allowed a second critical hit, then he'd just be 6d8+28. It's not nearly as broken.
When and where Greywolf?
I don't care about "boring" - what I care about is if it is balanced and doesn't break the game.
The current version breaks the game. It must go. And let's face it. An extra +1 to each bonus is still effective - for a 20th level fighter, that's +15 damage instead of +10.
But hey, if you want a bell and whistle, then keep the "eliminate penalties to hit if you spend a point of Mythic" as that's the last broken aspect of the elements in the Feat that just don't work.
|
I've had almost the same GreyWolfLord. I've had to reign but a fair bit to avoid killing the party. So far anyway. I'll wait until later in the AP before I get too excited, but so far we all seem to agree this is a fun AP.
I did nerd MPA though. It's now equivalent to deadly aim. Also made furious focus a viable option for 1 character - a cleric of Shelyn.
|
I've worked my groups near unstoppable abilities into my brawler/marshal's roleplaying. He thinks he is invincible by the grace of Sarenrae, and I play him in an incredibly reckless manner. Constant AOO's, jumping off of cliffs, charging through blade barriers. Basically trying to get him killed.
I have as of yet not managed to get him below half hp. We are near the mid of the path and it's already starting to get kinda boringly predictable. I'm usually stunned if a fight goes past 2 rounds.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, in short, all mythic feats are boring as they all increase basic feats? In a way I agree with that. I was looking for more choices from feats.
FanaticRat, having an ability that lets you kill Cthulhu in one shot from full hit points is not exciting. It's boring. It's "oh we wiped out another god-like creature. Yawn. Okay, let's find Odin and spank his ass. Maybe he'll last two rounds."
I'm old-school AD&D, and I've seen the problems of Monty Haul gaming and the like. This is worse than that. This is like enabling God Mode in Doom and using the BFG as your sole weapon to eliminate everything... while also enabling a second cheat to quintuple the damage of the BFG so it can one-shot boss creatures from a distance.
Wrath of the Righteous honestly just needs to be renamed "Rocket Tag" Honestly pulling punches might've been your first mistake. PC's should never have DM armor. They're mythic. They can raise each other with no problem.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is what I think: Mythic Feats should not be "enhancement feats" expanding on pre-existing Feats. They should instead do new and different things that are specifically related to the Mythic abilities themselves.
For that matter, the Mythic Spells should have been entirely new spells. Not rehashes of old spells. No, I'm talking new spells that are powered by Mythic Points... and the level of spell you can cast depends on your Tier.
This would even allow for say a Fighter to have Mythic Spellcasting. Think on that for a second... the Fighter who is able to create a Mythic Shield that protects him while fighting two-handed, or a Horror Effect that will demoralize foes as he splatters an enemy. Now that is interesting and diverse. And best of all, more easily balanced.
(Seriously, some Mythic spells are useless. Some are overpowered. Mythic Endure Elements is one of the most potent 1st level spells around, not because of damage but because it allows people to ignore snow terrain and fight in a blizzard as if it were clear out. And it's a 1st level spell that can be cast on as many people as your character level.)
So if we had more Mythic Feats that were unique to Mythic rather than revamps of existing Feats, and spells that existed only for Mythic, then this allows for greater control. You don't have problems like one Feat being so powerful (Mythic Power Attack) that a player can use it to one-shot Demon Lords on a lucky crit, while a second feat (Mythic Deadly Aim) is so underwhelming that there's almost no reason to take it.
But this would require a significant rewrite of Mythic. It'll never happen.
Agreed, The 3pp mythic material is very good.
Any suggestions on which 3pp Mythic Books are the best of the lot and worth acquiring for new Mythic Feats and Mythic Magic? And preferably not broken. ^^;;
When and where Greywolf?
Sorry about having so long to get back. I wasn't running it (was a player), but I believe it was near the end of book 5, probably the BBEG at the end (but can't say for certain, as I didn't pre-read the book/AP so don't know if it was actually at the end, or just our perception).
GM ran tactics different then the books overall from what I understand.
The missing core spells and feats books are good.
Out of curiosity...what kind of 3pp mythic material would you all be interested in seeing published?
When and where Greywolf?Sorry about having so long to get back. I wasn't running it (was a player), but I believe it was near the end of book 5, probably the BBEG at the end (but can't say for certain, as I didn't pre-read the book/AP so don't know if it was actually at the end, or just our perception).
GM ran tactics different then the books overall from what I understand.
To give a non-spoilery way to ask/answer the question, was it any of the following:
Drow
Giant
Lich
Marilith
Fallen Angel
Minotaur
Demodand
Worm
Statue
Dragon
The group I am DMing is just about to close the worldwound (at the end of book 6).
The typical encounter is: The wizard drops a fireball that ignores SR, ignores immunity to fire, and does 250 + 20d10 damage.
Then our bard gives everyone mythic haste and they all crowd around the BBEG. Since no BBEG has +20 to initiative, the PCs all go first. Our cleric of Gorum can easily do 600+ damage. The rogue can hit everyone in the room, and the paladin can't be hit. Etc.
This has me handwaving encounters away, since they will use minimal resources (that is mythic points) to alpha strike the bad guys.
I don't consider this a failed AP, since everyone seems to be having fun, and they keep coming back. But, it is not a normal AP. The PCs are superheroes that can likely become (or already be) god-killers. The abilities of the PCs are so outrageous that it lends itself to players who want to be total min-maxers. Look, a munchkin game can be fun. But don't think it will be a typical game.
Bad guys are easily dealt with, since, by economy of action, the PCs can take them out before the bad guy can release their ultimate weapon.
I'll be DMing Iron Gods next, and it will be a welcome relief to have PCs (and bad guys) within normal levels.
Looked at the Mythic Bullet Points. I must say I was tremendously underwhelmed. In fact, you could say I was quite disappointed with what was done with Mythic Feats there. Admittedly I didn't waste my money on the products so I'm just going by my impression reading up on it, but pretty much it was the opposite of what I'm looking for - not more Mythic double-layered Feats, but rather a decent number of entirely new Feats crafted from whole cloth.
This is a list of the new Feats built for Mythic (ie, not reFeats):
Marked for Glory
Mythic Companion (normal feat)
Ascendant Spell (normal meta-magic feat)
Drink is Life (3rd tier needed)
Dual Path
Extra Mythic Power
Extra Path Ability (3rd tier needed)
Lucky Surge (3rd tier needed)
Maximize Surge (6th tier needed)
Mythic Paragon
Potent Surge
These are along that line, but do have normal feat prerequisites:
Mythic Spell Lore
Fabulous Figments
Legendary Teamwork
Titan Strike
Two-Fisted Drinker
Valiant Charge
These Feats do something new, rather than enhancing existing Feats. I must admit I'm tempted to require all new Mythic Feats in my current games (which I added Mythic to) to only use these specific Mythic Feats. And it is stuff along this line that I feel works best for new products. Not a rehash "enhancement" of existing Feats, but something new.
I also have to admit that if I did ever run WotR to disallow Dual Path or have it be a 3rd (or even 6th!) tier Feat. Otherwise it's too powerful.
|
|
The group I am DMing is just about to close the worldwound (at the end of book 6).
The typical encounter is: The wizard drops a fireball that ignores SR, ignores immunity to fire, and does 250 + 20d10 damage.
Then our bard gives everyone mythic haste and they all crowd around the BBEG. Since no BBEG has +20 to initiative, the PCs all go first. Our cleric of Gorum can easily do 600+ damage. The rogue can hit everyone in the room, and the paladin can't be hit. Etc.
This has me handwaving encounters away, since they will use minimal resources (that is mythic points) to alpha strike the bad guys.
I don't consider this a failed AP, since everyone seems to be having fun, and they keep coming back. But, it is not a normal AP. The PCs are superheroes that can likely become (or already be) god-killers. The abilities of the PCs are so outrageous that it lends itself to players who want to be total min-maxers. Look, a munchkin game can be fun. But don't think it will be a typical game.
Bad guys are easily dealt with, since, by economy of action, the PCs can take them out before the bad guy can release their ultimate weapon.
I'll be DMing Iron Gods next, and it will be a welcome relief to have PCs (and bad guys) within normal levels.
Yeah, this was one of the most boring combat APs out there. The Mythic elements just seem to make everything into rocket tag. I am enjoying Mummy's mask quite a bit more than Wrath.
|
|
I am DMing this and we just got to the Church on the cliff edge in SoV, they had 2 party members go down on the Ghoul fight, they had no problem with the Gargoyles. They are pretty discouraged and want to just leave the area and continue on. I am thinking of having one the the NPCs come to assist them and then forcing their hand by having the Inquisitor show up.
I want them to clear the area because the upgrade to Radiance but I don't know if i should.
Thanks Ira for making me feel better about dropping this campaign and living up to the thread's title. I don't believe that anyone has described the end fights without them going into story mode or handwaving them.
Interestingly, and a follow-up to my complaints on Mythic Power Attack, it seems like a big player in our campaign is also the level of buffage the fighter is getting:
Cleric:
- Bull's Strength (+2/+2 from a +4 enhancement bonus to STR)
- Weapon of Awe (+0/+2 from a sacred bonus to damage)
Bard:
- Inspire Courage (+2/+2 competence bonus)
- Mythic Heroism (+4/+4 morale bonus)
Magic items:
- Alter self (+1/+1 from a +2 size bonus to STR)
So before we even look at the fighter's stats and feats he's getting +9/+11 from buffs. Even without mythic heroism it's +7/+9.
Compare this to our Second Darkness campaign where the fighters are lucky to get +1/+1 or our Rise of the Runelords where it maxed out at +5/+5 and you'll see it's not *just* the mythic feats; it's the extra availability of buff spells so the party doesn't hesitate to map out 2-3 fights, buff up, run through those fights, heal up, and repeat ad nauseum.
So someone previously posted in the thread that Wild Arcana and Inspired Spell were culprits, and I expressed doubt. Considering the cleric is burning through her mythic surges to buff the fighter to such obscene levels, I have to agree; the ability to cast a whole host of "anything on the cleric list" spells is turning our fighter into a monster.
Add mythic and so far nothing in Citadel Drezen has survived more than a round against him...
Hmmm... those abilities may be the culprit or the result is. The result being that casters can cast 5-11 extra spells per day. Even if casters had to memorize everything ahead of time the amount buffing would likely increase.
To help that out, I started having every enemy begin each fight with every buff spell they had already active. It was 'cheating' but necessary as there is no way an enemy can take a round to cast a spell on themselves.
But it was annoying. Even at mid levels every fight needed dispel magics cast by both sides, which gives even more power to eldritch breach.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Here's one solution that has been bandied about: Limit the number of buffs on a character to his or her charisma modifier, with a minimum of one. I think there were conditions on that (like allowing bardic song in addition) but really, you could just limit it to Charisma modifier for everything.
It would have a huge impact on the game. And stop having Charisma as a dump stat!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I've already decided that my enemy casters are going to have to have Greater Dispels prepared as often as possible. In my previous post I didn't even note the +1 attack bonus from Haste and the havoc it wreaks, because at least the bard forgets to Haste the party sometimes.
The fighter won't let a single buff expire before saying, "Hey, cleric! Buff me again!"
I swear, I need to get her one of those electric car waxers...
Here's one solution that has been bandied about: Limit the number of buffs on a character to his or her charisma modifier, with a minimum of one. I think there were conditions on that (like allowing bardic song in addition) but really, you could just limit it to Charisma modifier for everything.
It would have a huge impact on the game. And stop having Charisma as a dump stat!
True, but pretty unfair near the end of Book 2 to suddenly say, "Hey, know that Charisma you dumped because it was useless? Now it's your most important stat! Sorry!"
They're still having a blast with the AP, and did their first-ever Pathfinder scry-n-fry (poor Daiatan was a mythic surge away from actually getting to roll his initiative before he died), so the group is still saying, "Great game! Lots of fun!" after every session.
I like to keep reporting because it seems like people are finding my reports informative.
They'll be heading downstairs next week. I look forward to seeing how they fare against incorporeal critters...
That's the thing. I'm perfectly willing to say "I've noticed some problems and want to incorporate an optional rule improve the game." That's how I've altered the critical system on the fly, incorporated Mythic, nerfed some aspects of Mythic, and so forth. Or in the Runelords game, eliminating Leadership entirely (with cohorts remaining for roleplaying purposes with the caveat of "they'll protect your rear and this way I won't kill them off") and letting the two players choose a replacement Feat.
On the other hand, I also will allow players to rewrite their character if it's not working out (like the player who was going toward Mystic Theurge going to almost pure cleric with one level of wizard - also let him choose different spheres for his cleric).
Ultimately the game is to be enjoyed, as you said. I'm not an MMORPG system that doesn't allow changes. ;)
Oh, absolutely. We're already talking about nerfing Mythic Power attack, and have already marked some feats as "so broken no one can take them" (Fleet Charge).
But eliminating buffing when he played the buffer throughout RotRL (he was Shiro the bard) and he's *finally* getting to be the buffee would just be out-and-out mean.
There are "adjustments", and there are "hosings".
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
can you at least tell him that as a joke and then post a picture of his reaction:D
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
can you at least tell him that as a joke and then post a picture of his reaction:D
You sir, are cruel.
I like that in a person.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I swear. We need to form a gaming group out of captain yesterday, NobodysHome, magnuskn, and myself. No idea who we'd get to GM for us though....
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, Shiro's player would do it in a heartbeat.
Just so he could laugh maniacally as we died. Again. And again. And again.
Did I mention he's a longtime convention Call of Cthulu GM? If he hasn't killed or driven insane at least 3/4 of the party, he considers it a personal failing. :-P
(True story: He ran the same homespun module at a convention, for one group of friends, and for another group of friends, myself included. In all three sessions, at the exact same moment of the campaign, the player he was targeting screamed out loud at the table. A GM who can make players scream out loud on cue? Yeahhhh....)
If I wasn't so busy with other things I'd volunteer.