Poisons in PFS

[UmbraCorvus]

I am currently playing a ninja and as such am considering using poisons for my character and would like some clarification on the ruling in the faq. Does the list of poisons available to characters with the poison use ability apply to which poison can be crafted? Or can I craft whatever I can afford?

[Dragnmoon]

UmbraCorvus wrote:

I am currently playing a ninja and as such am considering using poisons for my character and would like some clarification on the ruling in the faq. Does the list of poisons available to characters with the poison use ability apply to which poison can be crafted? Or can I craft whatever I can afford?

Yes they apply to which poisons can be crafted as well.

Also Ninjas do not have the ability to craft poison.

[The Fox]

Here is a great thread for you to check out:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q7wv?Poison-Use-in-Pathfinder-Society

In particular, see my post in that thread; it explains which poisons from the Core Rulebook are always available. (Spoiler: the FAQ is wrong and has yet to be updated.)

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

ITS A TRAP!! Don't use poisons in PFS. You need a home game where you can craft poisons from stuff you find or creatures you can harvest from, otherwise your just putting gold in a toilet and flushing it.

[Chris Mortika]

Not every choice has to be optimal, UaBS. There's lots of fun to be had from poisons.

[nosig]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Not every choice has to be optimal, UaBS. There's lots of fun to be had from poisons.

I often don't take optimal combat builds - but even I can't really find the fun in a poisoner build. Perhaps I've just missed it, but... Tried to build it as an alchemist, as a druid, as a rogue, and as a witch but all four seem to just not work at all...

Poisons are basicly de-buffs, and ... often poor expensive ones at that.

perhaps I am missing something - so I wish the OP luck, and would love to see him with a working PC at a table sometime.

[Jiggy]

Chris Mortika wrote:

There's lots of fun to be had from poisons.

Please elaborate. The phrase "I'm playing a poison-user" makes me excited, but every time I've looked at actually putting it into practice, it's made me feel disappointed.

The main thing that poisons (at least, the ones we're allowed to use) can do is deal ability damage, generally at a rate of (at best) 1d4 per failed save, no more than 1/round.

To actually end the fight, you need to take a score from low- to mid-teens all the way down to zero.

Unlike hit point damage, your efforts to do so won't be cumulative with your allies' attacks.

Which means that even if you throw 10 DEX damage on somebody, if your allies then drop him from HP damage, you haven't really made much of a contribution. In fact, your allies' success will feel almost like "kill stealing". I.e., "Aw, I almost had him!"

I guess instead you could think of yourself as a debuffer, using STR-damaging poisons to give penalties to attack and damage or DEX-damaging poisons to make them easier for your allies to hit. Even then, you're looking at 1-2 rounds of failed saves just to get a -1 on them. You'll need about 2-3 rounds of failed saves to get the equivalent of the fatigued condition (available to spellcasters as a touch-AC cantrip with a single save and a single round).

So if I want to actually defeat enemies, my poisons will take so long they'll be dead before the poison runs its course. If I want to be a debuffer, I'm two rounds behind a cantrip.

If I want to make poison a relevant part of the actions I'm performing, I have to deliberately hold back from accidentally doing standard things like "using class features" and "having a STR bonus".

If there's something I've overlooked, such that having poison on my blade actually makes my character different than if I didn't, I'd be very interested, because poison is cool... as long as it's actually reflected in my gaming experience.

[Chris Mortika]

I agree, nosig; poisons are essentially de-buffs. And, as always, don't bother with the small fry unless you can take them all the way out, quickly. And with the collection of elementals and evil outsiders, poisons aren't an end-all. They are a disappointing one-trick pony.

I've never been able to figure out how to make poisons work on a blade, Jiggy. But arrows work pretty well.

My best success with a poisoner was an alchemist / summoner. The eidolon was venomous, and both the summoner and the eidolon shot lots of poisoned arrows at people.Also, summon monster lists gave him a couple of poisoning critters that added to the effects.

A halfling witch / ninja might be a pretty good choice, with jinx and misfortune making the saving throws less likely.

[nosig]

Chris Mortika wrote:

I agree, nosig; poisons are essentially de-buffs. And, as always, don't bother with the small fry unless you can take them all the way out, quickly. And with the collection of elementals and evil outsiders, poisons aren't an end-all. They are a disappointing one-trick pony.

A halfling witch / ninja is a pretty good choice, with jinx and misfortune making the saving throws less likely.

I actually looked at a Witch/Alchemist and using the spell Beguiling Gift (outside of PFS, I wouldn't use it in PFS because of YMMV), but found I would do better just handing the target my Mutigen to drink ("A non-alchemist who drinks a mutagen must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the alchemist's level + the alchemist's Intelligence modifier) or become nauseated for 1 hour") as the save was higher, the effects removed him from the fight for an hour, and it cost zero GP...

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Not every choice has to be optimal, UaBS. There's lots of fun to be had from poisons.

I agree, but its a big stretch from not optimal to terrible. This leans very far into the terrible category imo.

I like poison use in home game, where you can brew, strengthen, harvest, make stronger, etc. Even there you have to house rule crafting otherwise it takes several months to make a single dose of any decent poison:( I have custom crafting rules I use in my games that make poison brewing decent, and allow harvesting from flora and animals. I had a poisoner bard who used a whip in a dark sun game and he was amazing. Makes poisons not a sink of 40% of your resources per game session to make a difference.

But thats my opinion, if the OP can find a way to make it worthwhile to him more power to him, I just see it as a bad idea all around, particularly in society.

[Acedio]

Spoiler:

Purple worm poison is very effective.

[Jiggy]

Acedio wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

And also not available. That's the problem. The poisons worth using aren't allowed. The poisons that are allowed are too slow/weak to actually see an appreciable effect in any given encounter.

[Finlanderboy]

Damage to con also reduces HP.

[UmbraCorvus]

Thanks Fox I found your post earlier but forgot to bookmark it and then I couldn't find it again. To everyone else I realize that poisons aren't as great in pfs but I feel that using poiso
ns sparringly will allow my character greater versatility.

P.S. The Pathfinder staff should consider releasing some kind of legal resouce that makes poisons a little more user friendly. Also update the FAQ, I really hate argueing with GMs. Thanks everyone.

[Acedio]

Jiggy wrote:

Acedio wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

And also not available. That's the problem. The poisons worth using aren't allowed. The poisons that are allowed are too slow/weak to actually see an appreciable effect in any given encounter.

Yeah, you're SOL unless you get that boon.

[Rogue Eidolon]

Finlanderboy wrote:

Damage to con also reduces HP.

Deathblade is one of the best poisons out there. It's fast, it has a reasonable DC, and it's synergistic with your team and with itself. But as far as I know, it's only in limited dosage on an AP boon.

[nosig]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Finlanderboy wrote:

Damage to con also reduces HP.

Deathblade is one of the best poisons out there. It's fast, it has a reasonable DC, and it's synergistic with your team and with itself. But as far as I know, it's only in limited dosage on an AP boon.

at 1800 gp a shot it is ... hard to use if you buy each shot. Even if crafted it still runs 600 gp per dose... so you burn almost enough money to buy a 1st level wand (600 gp) to get one chance at hitting something.

[Mahtobedis]

Personally I don't like Poison's in PFS.

Not because they are mechanically disadvantageous, which I think they are, but because they are rather annoying to resolve.

Each poison is different. So when a poison is used the poison needs to be looked up, then the saves need to be rolled. Then the poison needs to be remembered and rolled again. It just slows the turn a great deal more than I like.

[Szilvas]

Of courssse, for usssss Vishkanya, thissss question becomessss easy to anssswer...

Alchemist Class Details wrote:

Poison Use (Ex): Alchemists are trained in the use of poison and starting at 2nd level, cannot accidentally poison themselves when applying poison to a weapon.

Vishkanya Racial Traits wrote:

Poison Use: Vishkanyas are skilled in the use of poison and never accidentally poison themselves when using or applying poison.

Of course, acquiring poisons other than ones that come to Vishkanya naturally is still a question mark...

[Rogue Eidolon]

nosig wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Finlanderboy wrote:

Damage to con also reduces HP.

Deathblade is one of the best poisons out there. It's fast, it has a reasonable DC, and it's synergistic with your team and with itself. But as far as I know, it's only in limited dosage on an AP boon.

at 1800 gp a shot it is ... hard to use if you buy each shot. Even if crafted it still runs 600 gp per dose... so you burn almost enough money to buy a 1st level wand (600 gp) to get one chance at hitting something.

I'm assuming crafted by an alchemist with Sticky Poison and good Int because that's my experience with it as a PC (not in PFS of course). It was worth every penny of the 600 gp per dose. When you're throwing a DC 20 Fort save per hit in an attack routine, with the DC rising by 2 on each failed save (and their Con sapping so their Fort bonus goes down), you can do some major Con damage for the cost. I'd moreso compare it to the cost of dweomer essence or something. I know wizards buy and use that stuff.