I used to have a different view of it. I used to think "As long as people stay decent even if they have drunk, let them." Turns out that resulted in a damaged apartment that the drunk people felt was not their responsibility to pay for fixing, because, you guessed it, "Hey man, that was just because I was soooooo hammered." Best of all, they still to this day think they can drink responsibly. I guess it's difficult accepting that drinking turns you into human slime, after all, that means you're a child if you can't drink responsibly, right?
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Why do I need to replace drinking with either of those two things? They are mutually exclusive. Drinking is an activity that can have detrimental side effects, and can be disruptive. Being a minority or a homosexual are part of what make people what they are. Your argument is spurious.Drinking at my house or at my game DOES affect me, or at the very least has the potential.See it's that last part that bothers me. Replace "drinking" with "homosexuality" or "minorities" and you will understand the problem I have with your argument form.So whether or not behavior is OK depends on whether or not you feel that behavior is core to who they are as a person?
Yeah that could never lead to intolerant thinking...
I'm free to tolerate what I like. Part of what it means to be a human being. I don't like alcohol, I don't want it in my house. If someone doesn't like that, then they either don't come to my house, or they don't drink for a few hours when they do, and cope. If that's intolerant, so be it. Its my house, my rules. Comparing me to a racist or a homophobe because I don't want drinking in my house, well, that's just silly. My not wanting alcohol in my house is not doing anyone any harm.
I used to have a different view of it. I used to think "As long as people stay decent even if they have drunk, let them." Turns out that resulted in a damaged apartment that the drunk people felt was not their responsibility to pay for fixing, because, you guessed it, "Hey man, that was just because I was soooooo hammered." Best of all, they still to this day think they can drink responsibly. I guess it's difficult accepting that drinking turns you into human slime, after all, that means you're a child if you can't drink responsibly, right?
Yes, that's correct. And I wouldn't let that person drink at my house anymore. I would not assume all of my friends were irresponsible jerks because of one person's actions.
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I am not sure you understood.
These people were 100% certain before it happened that they can drink responsibly.
Despite this, they cost me a fair penny and did not in any way consider themselves responsible for it, either for paying or for cleaning up.
Thus, I do not take the chance anymore. With anyone. What should I do? Ask for a cash deposit that would cover smashed windows, puked-down floor and costs for the time of getting a violent person an ambulance? Should I install an ejection seat so I can get rid of a drunk who won't leave? Please, you think I'm a jerk for not letting people drink at my table, what should I do?
I'm free to tolerate what I like. Part of what it means to be a human being. I don't like alcohol, I don't want it in my house. If someone doesn't like that, then they either don't come to my house, or they don't drink for a few hours when they do, and cope. If that's intolerant, so be it. Its my house, my rules. Comparing me to a racist or a homophobe because I don't want drinking in my house, well, that's just silly. My not wanting alcohol in my house is not doing anyone any harm.Why do I need to replace drinking with either of those two things? They are mutually exclusive. Drinking is an activity that can have detrimental side effects, and can be disruptive. Being a minority or a homosexual are part of what make people what they are. Your argument is spurious.Drinking at my house or at my game DOES affect me, or at the very least has the potential.See it's that last part that bothers me. Replace "drinking" with "homosexuality" or "minorities" and you will understand the problem I have with your argument form.So whether or not behavior is OK depends on whether or not you feel that behavior is core to who they are as a person?
Yeah that could never lead to intolerant thinking...
And I'm fine with that. As long as you realize it's your problem with alcohol. If you dislike it that much, I would certainly not bring alcohol to your house. It would even be very reasonable to not have alcohol at games you were involved in away from your house. Just don't tell me it's my problem because of some other person's action. (Now if I get too drunk, and you have to talk with me, that's different. I just don't want you judging me because of someone else.)
I would never, ever, EVER tell someone not to drink at a table that I was running a game at.
I have two friends that I used to game with who every now and then would like to imbibe of alcohol and knew their limits and didnt drink to the point of excess or intoxication.
But I knew THEM. I have an 20+ year relationship with them. It's one of mutual respect. These two were pretty heavy smokers as well. But wouldn't smoke in my presence because they thought it was disrespectful. So we made sure to punctuate the game with regular smoke breaks.
I dont know the rest of the gamers/people out there.
I've seen games go all pear shaped because people were making decisions that they would not have made if they were sober/drinking less. I've seen this at the gaming table, I've seen it in clubs and I've seen it on the street.
Which is why if I dont know you or barely know you I would never, ever, EVER tell you not to drink.
But I'm pretty sure I'd pack my stuff up and leave the table. No hard feelings but drinkers for the most part aren't my scene. It's not something I do and It's something that I've made a conscious decision not stay away from. If that makes me a horrible person then I guess I'll be burning in hell right along side the pedophiles and murderers.
I'm not telling you what to do. I'm telling you what I'D do.
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I am trying to figure out if I am still reading all of this because I feel like I have something to apologize for or because it is making me introspective about whether or not I am a bad person deep down in my gazed narcissistic navel or because I feel like I have something to contribute that I am having a hard time coalescing it into a focused argument that goes beyond thinly veiled bukowski happened upon as a teenager
or some combination of all three
hmmm
then I went and made fun of rogues a bit
evens out in the end
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Again, none of that is to say that everyone who drinks will be a problem, but the vast majority of those who will be a problem won't admit, so how do you handle that? Especially if you like them when they're sober?
When I banned alcohol at my gaming table, I went to the individuals who inspired it and simply said, "We can't have drinking during the game anymore. Its too disruptive, and we don't get nearly as much done." Everyone understood, and it wasn't a problem. Simple as that. They were good friends and cared enough that it wasn't a big deal.
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The question is... does everyone get ONE chance to do it? I say no. If that makes me a jerk, so be it.
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I am not sure you understood.
These people were 100% certain before it happened that they can drink responsibly.
Despite this, they cost me a fair penny and did not in any way consider themselves responsible for it, either for paying or for cleaning up.
Thus, I do not take the chance anymore. With anyone. What should I do? Ask for a cash deposit that would cover smashed windows, puked-down floor and costs for the time of getting a violent person an ambulance? Should I install an ejection seat so I can get rid of a drunk who won't leave? Please, you think I'm a jerk for not letting people drink at my table, what should I do?
I do not understand. I game with friends, people I know. I would not let complete strangers come into my house and get drunk. Not even for a party. I would not be friends with someone who destroyed my place and refused to help make amends even if it truly was an accident. So again, I do not understand. Do you not know your friends that well? Or are your friends just jerks?
And... these were people I thought I knew. I just hadn't seen them drunk before.
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The question is... does everyone get ONE chance to do it? I say no. If that makes me a jerk, so be it.
Everyone? No. My friends? Yes. I trust my friends until they do something to lose my trust. I don't hold my friends accountable for other peoples actions though.
I'm free to tolerate what I like. Part of what it means to be a human being. I don't like alcohol, I don't want it in my house. If someone doesn't like that, then they either don't come to my house, or they don't drink for a few hours when they do, and cope. If that's intolerant, so be it. Its my house, my rules. Comparing me to a racist or a homophobe because I don't want drinking in my house, well, that's just silly. My not wanting alcohol in my house is not doing anyone any harm.Why do I need to replace drinking with either of those two things? They are mutually exclusive. Drinking is an activity that can have detrimental side effects, and can be disruptive. Being a minority or a homosexual are part of what make people what they are. Your argument is spurious.Drinking at my house or at my game DOES affect me, or at the very least has the potential.See it's that last part that bothers me. Replace "drinking" with "homosexuality" or "minorities" and you will understand the problem I have with your argument form.So whether or not behavior is OK depends on whether or not you feel that behavior is core to who they are as a person?
Yeah that could never lead to intolerant thinking...
Well I guess I'll just have to tolerate your intolerance. Apparently intolerance isn't something that harms people...
Well I guess I'll just have to tolerate your intolerance. Apparently intolerance isn't something that harms people...
I guess you will, since my intolerance of alcohol doesn't harm anyone. Get over it.
Intolerance to people driving under the influence? Yeah, I guess we'll just have to tolerate that from you. I mean, it IS a risky behaviour that has a fair possibility of hurting others, but really, lots of people actually get BETTER drivers when they have a brew inside the vest, you know? Not to mention weed. That makes people SOOOO good at driving.
That's it. No one gets to drunkenly demolish my house more than once.
How does someone demolish your house when they're drunk? Let's take the level of exaggeration down a few pegs.
If someone becomes so violent or belligerent from drinking alcohol, you ask them to leave. If they refuse, you forcibly remove them from your house. If you're not comfortable/able to remove them, you call the police. Needless to say, you don't invite that person back again.
I suspect that some people claiming that no one can handle their alcohol have really terrible friends.
Intolerance to people driving under the influence? Yeah, I guess we'll just have to tolerate that from you. I mean, it IS a risky behaviour that has a fair possibility of hurting others, but really, lots of people actually get BETTER drivers when they have a brew inside the vest, you know? Not to mention weed. That makes people SOOOO good at driving.
I just can't really get behind being intolerant of behavior that is harmless to oneself or pretending that that behavior is harmful to yourself.
It's that kind of mentality that fuels most of the intolerance moments around the world, and I will not be patting someone else on the back for taking the same kind of stance against the evils of alcohol.
Now someone mentioned drugs. That's ILLEGAL behavior. By virtue of it being against the law, that behavior is harmful to be around. To relate that to alcohol, I don't want to see anyone who is driving trying to drink. Cause that is how people get killed. I don't really care if you are "under the legal limit", and neither do the people you are more likely to run over from a light buzz. Even being under the legal limit greatly decreases motor skills for most individuals. It's why I see the legal limit as more of a way to handle trace amounts of alcohol in the system after a good nights rest.
So yeah, I can see not allowing alcohol at my house, if everyone is driving, but I probably don't want to hang out with people that I have to tell not to commit attempted murder.
Well I guess I'll just have to tolerate your intolerance. Apparently intolerance isn't something that harms people...I guess you will, since my intolerance of alcohol doesn't harm anyone. Get over it.
No one ever does think that their intolerance harms people...
Exactly, Marthkus. You find it okay to be intolerant to people that act in a way that brings a risk to their environment. I do too. I just consider people drinking to bring such a risk.
Exactly, Marthkus. You find it okay to be intolerant to people that act in a way that brings a risk to their environment. I do too. I just consider people drinking to bring such a risk.
Except it doesn't.
In the case of drunk driving, it's the car and the alcohol that brings the risk. I'm guessing you allow cars at your house right?
I would never, ever, EVER tell someone not to drink at a table that I was running a game at.
I have two friends that I used to game with who every now and then would like to imbibe of alcohol and knew their limits and didnt drink to the point of excess or intoxication.
But I knew THEM. I have an 20+ year relationship with them. It's one of mutual respect. These two were pretty heavy smokers as well. But wouldn't smoke in my presence because they thought it was disrespectful. So we made sure to punctuate the game with regular smoke breaks.
I dont know the rest of the gamers/people out there.
I've seen games go all pear shaped because people were making decisions that they would not have made if they were sober/drinking less. I've seen this at the gaming table, I've seen it in clubs and I've seen it on the street.
Which is why if I dont know you or barely know you I would never, ever, EVER tell you not to drink.
But I'm pretty sure I'd pack my stuff up and leave the table. No hard feelings but drinkers for the most part aren't my scene. It's not something I do and It's something that I've made a conscious decision not stay away from. If that makes me a horrible person then I guess I'll be burning in hell right along side the pedophiles and murderers.
I'm not telling you what to do. I'm telling you what I'D do.
See, that's an even weirder attitude to me.
What if they'd rather play with you than drink, but don't realize that's why you keep leaving? Though I guess if we're talking about people you barely know that's not really the issue.
Or obviously, what if you're running the game? Packing up and leaving is killing the game, but without even giving them the chance to decide to play instead of drink. Or even letting them know why.
I'd absolutely let them know why I was leaving.
My thing is this, in my experience drinking at the table hasnt been the default. Smoking pot at the table hasn't been the default. Even smoking at the table period hasn't been the default.
So if we're sitting down to play the game and all of a sudden people start breaking out the Sam Adams? That's my cue that it's time to move on.
Cant win for losing it seems. I guess it would matter if I was actually trying to win. But I'm trying to do what's emotionally/mentally healthy for me. Im not trying to stop other people from doing what they want to do. That's kind of the point that I'm trying to make here.
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I really wish I could lock my own thread. {sigh}
I used to have a different view of it. I used to think "As long as people stay decent even if they have drunk, let them." Turns out that resulted in a damaged apartment that the drunk people felt was not their responsibility to pay for fixing, because, you guessed it, "Hey man, that was just because I was soooooo hammered." Best of all, they still to this day think they can drink responsibly. I guess it's difficult accepting that drinking turns you into human slime, after all, that means you're a child if you can't drink responsibly, right?
Can turn you into human slime, if you were already a person of slimy character to begin with. Why do I say that? Because you talked to them afterwards and they refused to pay (because was hammered). You can't blame the alcohol for that, it is an excuse chosen by people trying to con you and escape paying for damages.
I get you've had a bad experience, but all the groups I've been in that have drank have had a good time (bad rolls are even funnier after a few ales). We also found it very appropriate (ales for a dnd game, south American beer for a pirate game).
You have had the bad experiences, I have not; but even when my experiences have been good I have still run into would-be-tyrant dms that wanted to come down hard on it. Yes, even a single bottle of ale (drank by a 100 kilo person) would be too much for them. They just HAD to try and keep control because they just knew it was bad, they knew better than me and any player that thought differently.
That is when any sense of reason capsizes into madness.
That's it. No one gets to drunkenly demolish my house more than once.How does someone demolish your house when they're drunk? Let's take the level of exaggeration down a few pegs.
If someone becomes so violent or belligerent from drinking alcohol, you ask them to leave. If they refuse, you forcibly remove them from your house. If you're not comfortable/able to remove them, you call the police. Needless to say, you don't invite that person back again.
I suspect that some people claiming that no one can handle their alcohol have really terrible friends.
Did it ever occur to you that some people can be very good people, just a!&%+$#s when they drink, and so if you keep it all without alcohol, you can be friends with them, but with alcohol, you can't? Sodding machismo b~*$%!@$ about "I'm an adult, because I can handle alcohol. Those who can't are simply terrible human beings."
The truth is that everyone can flip on alcohol. You could have started a new prescription drug, you could be dehydrated and react far faster than you usually do, you could have been emotionally through the wringer so your behaviour when drunk gets stranger than usual, and so on. Someone who can't hold their liquor isn't a bad person... so long as they are sober. How's that for intolerance?
I really wish I could lock my own thread. {sigh}
I apologize for participating in the derail. I'll stop now.
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No one ever does think that their intolerance harms people...Well I guess I'll just have to tolerate your intolerance. Apparently intolerance isn't something that harms people...I guess you will, since my intolerance of alcohol doesn't harm anyone. Get over it.
Please, do tell my how my intolerance of alcohol will bring harm to another human being. Define it. Explain it. Weave a scenario. My rejection of alcohol is going to bring down society and lay waste to nations.
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Did it ever occur to you that some people can be very good people, just a!##+$#s when they drink
No, because that is not how alcohol works.
I really wish I could lock my own thread. {sigh}
Sincere apologies.
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I really wish I could lock my own thread. {sigh}I apologize for participating in the derail. I'll stop now.
I don't mind decent derail. I don't like to be the instigation of people spewing bile at each other.
Can turn you into human slime, if you were already a person of slimy character to begin with. Why do I say that? Because you talked to them afterwards and they refused to pay (because was hammered). You can't blame the alcohol for that, it is an excuse chosen by people trying to con you and escape paying for damages.
I get you've had a bad experience, but all the groups I've been in that have drank have had a good time (bad rolls are even funnier after a few ales). We also found it very appropriate (ales for a dnd game).
You have had the bad experiences, I have not; but even when my experiences have been good I have still run into would-be-tyrant dms that wanted to come down hard on it. Yes, even a single bottle of ale (drank by a 100 kilo person) would be too much for them. They just HAD to try and keep control because they just knew it was bad, they knew better than me and any player that thought differently.
That is when any sense of reason capsizes into madness.
That's why I said there is a cultural expectation that the things you do when drunk don't really count. It's not them being odd, sadly. Many will of course take responsibility, but everyone with a problem will cling to this.
And if you think not allowing alcohol at your table is "madness", I don't know what to say.
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Did it ever occur to you that some people can be very good people, just a!##+$#s when they drinkNo, because that is not how alcohol works.
REA-lly? Do tell me more about how alcohol works. Because I obviously have no idea.
Well I guess I'll just have to tolerate your intolerance. Apparently intolerance isn't something that harms people...I guess you will, since my intolerance of alcohol doesn't harm anyone. Get over it.
See, right there is you being a jerk. That is what is being called out. Get over yourself first.
That's it. No one gets to drunkenly demolish my house more than once.How does someone demolish your house when they're drunk? Let's take the level of exaggeration down a few pegs.
If someone becomes so violent or belligerent from drinking alcohol, you ask them to leave. If they refuse, you forcibly remove them from your house. If you're not comfortable/able to remove them, you call the police. Needless to say, you don't invite that person back again.
I suspect that some people claiming that no one can handle their alcohol have really terrible friends.
Did it ever occur to you that some people can be very good people, just a~++#+&s when they drink, and so if you keep it all without alcohol, you can be friends with them, but with alcohol, you can't? Sodding machismo b!$$*!!# about "I'm an adult, because I can handle alcohol. Those who can't are simply terrible human beings."
The truth is that everyone can flip on alcohol. You could have started a new prescription drug, you could be dehydrated and react far faster than you usually do, you could have been emotionally through the wringer so your behaviour when drunk gets stranger than usual, and so on. Someone who can't hold their liquor isn't a bad person... so long as they are sober. How's that for intolerance?
If, could, might, may be the case once and fearmongering.
Or the crew sit around, enjoy their drinks, don't get dry mouths and have a good time.
On the machismo, you do know how alcohol works right? I said 1 drink doesn't do squat to a 100 kilo chappy because of the chemistry behind it. The blood alcohol level slightly rises, shock and horror. Not up to any of the negatives, but may be more relaxed and enjoying the taste of a nice amber ale. A dangerous development, I know.
See, right there is you being a jerk. That is what is being called out. Get over yourself first.Well I guess I'll just have to tolerate your intolerance. Apparently intolerance isn't something that harms people...I guess you will, since my intolerance of alcohol doesn't harm anyone. Get over it.
You're no better, and on top you're breaking message board rules.
I have nothing to get over.
REA-lly? Do tell me more about how alcohol works. Because I obviously have no idea.Did it ever occur to you that some people can be very good people, just a!##+$#s when they drinkNo, because that is not how alcohol works.
You seem to be losing your s#*& over groups having a few drinks with a game. Exaggerating the common effects and throwing in all sorts of doom and gloom situations.
Look just say drinking during a game will cause the dead to rise and end the world already.
Did it ever occur to you that some people can be very good people, just a$~*$!!s when they drink, and so if you keep it all without alcohol, you can be friends with them, but with alcohol, you can't?
Sure, that has occurred to me. I just think its unfair for you to assume everyone is that kind of person. Again, you have every right to set the rules for your own household. Trying to extend your experience with a handful of people to everyone who drinks alcohol is unfair.
Sodding machismo b$+$!~$@ about "I'm an adult, because I can handle alcohol. Those who can't are simply terrible human beings."
If you're implying I said that, I did not. If someone cannot handle their alcohol, they should not be drinking alcohol. If you're afraid they're going to be pressured into drinking because other people will, then you can ask those other people if they're willing to not drink because of the situation. Most people are reasonable.
The truth is that everyone can flip on alcohol. You could have started a new prescription drug, you could be dehydrated and react far faster than you usually do, you could have been emotionally through the wringer so your behaviour when drunk gets stranger than usual, and so on.
Sorry, that is not the truth. Not everyone "flips" on alcohol. Some people that get really drunk get super happy and friendly. Some people tell everyone that they love them. Some people think they're amazing at everything.
Different people behave differently when drunk. Stating you don't want to take the chance that someone that drinks may "flip" would be similar to saying every x type of player you've dealt with has acted in y way, and so you no longer game with x type of players.
Fill in x with whatever you can imagine and you can see why this is problematic.
Again, feel free to not allow alcohol at your home or refuse to game with people that drink, that is completely your right. But if you try to tell all of us how we may react based on your experience with other people, you're going to get a lot of people vehemently disagreeing with you.
Delicious golden or amber ale, enjoyed in good company with dice, dungeons, great shenanigans and much mirth.
Tell me how this is a bad thing or dangerous? :/
REA-lly? Do tell me more about how alcohol works. Because I obviously have no idea.Did it ever occur to you that some people can be very good people, just a!##+$#s when they drinkNo, because that is not how alcohol works.You seem to be losing your s*@& over groups having a few drinks with a game. Exaggerating the common effects and throwing in all sorts of doom and gloom situations.
Look just say drinking during a game will cause the dead to rise and end the world already.
Stop attributing to me what I haven't said, please.
It is a risk, certainly not automatic. And the risk is not worth taking, because guess what? Once is too much. Not to mention, I would prefer to keep decent people as friends and not have to exclude them when something happens. Keeping it sober does that. Allowing drinking would not.
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Please, do tell my how my intolerance of alcohol will bring harm to another human being. Define it. Explain it. Weave a scenario. My rejection of alcohol is going to bring down society and lay waste to nations.No one ever does think that their intolerance harms people...Well I guess I'll just have to tolerate your intolerance. Apparently intolerance isn't something that harms people...I guess you will, since my intolerance of alcohol doesn't harm anyone. Get over it.
Prohibition.
Which lead to strengthening organize crime and eventually the drug trade. One of the most violent, crime ridden eras of American history was cause by an intolerance of alcohol.
*I'm assuming you're not meaning singular cases of intolerance, and just wanted an example where intolerance of alcohol destroyed lives.
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children, children, please. Can't we all have a beer and calm the f-word down?
I'll start.
Salud to our health!
I don't mind decent derail. I don't like to be the instigation of people spewing bile at each other.
I don't think most people are spewing bile. We just happen to disagree and are trying to explain our points of view. If it goes too far, the moderators will delete posts/lock thread.
I'm always interested in seeing other people's points of view on issues. This can lead to disagreeing/debating, but that shouldn't be misconstrued as arguing.
Not everyone flips. Everyone CAN flip. It's really only about circumstances. And seriously, having someone so drunk that they keep moaning about how you're their best friend... that isn't my idea of good gaming.
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Funny how a game that starts off most groups in taverns is somehow incompatible with alcohol...
Please, do tell my how my intolerance of alcohol will bring harm to another human being. Define it. Explain it. Weave a scenario. My rejection of alcohol is going to bring down society and lay waste to nations.No one ever does think that their intolerance harms people...Well I guess I'll just have to tolerate your intolerance. Apparently intolerance isn't something that harms people...I guess you will, since my intolerance of alcohol doesn't harm anyone. Get over it.Prohibition.
Which lead to strengthening organize crime and eventually the drug trade. One of the most violent, crime ridden eras of American history was cause by an intolerance of alcohol.
*I'm assuming you're not meaning singular cases of intolerance, and just wanted an example where intolerance of alcohol destroyed lives.
Well, it should come as great comfort to you that I certainly think the prohibition was a bad idea.
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Funny how a game that starts off most groups in taverns is somehow incompatible with alcohol...
And funny how an activity that deals so heavily with killing and combat doesn't get better with real weapons and clashes between the players.
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Please, do tell my how my intolerance of alcohol will bring harm to another human being. Define it. Explain it. Weave a scenario. My rejection of alcohol is going to bring down society and lay waste to nations.No one ever does think that their intolerance harms people...Well I guess I'll just have to tolerate your intolerance. Apparently intolerance isn't something that harms people...I guess you will, since my intolerance of alcohol doesn't harm anyone. Get over it.Prohibition.
Which lead to strengthening organize crime and eventually the drug trade. One of the most violent, crime ridden eras of American history was cause by an intolerance of alcohol.
*I'm assuming you're not meaning singular cases of intolerance, and just wanted an example where intolerance of alcohol destroyed lives.
No, I wanted an explanation of how MY intolerance of alcohol was going harm anyone. Prohibition is not a good argument, since I am not a legislator, president, or anyone who can affect how other people live their lives. I'm not calling for banning it, making it illegal, or eliminating from society. I'm saying it's not welcome in my home or at my gaming table. Plain. Simple. I may even go so far as to say, "elegant."