Story trumps rules, IMO. You set callout that indicated what would happen if he died, the archer killed him anyway. Hence, they triggered the effect, ready action or not.
Mechanically speaking, drops and falling occur instantly (for minor distances, which this is one of them). Considering that gravity pulls objects at ~9 m/s, that bomb would have dropped 27 feet in the first second of that guy's death (if we script turns as 6 seconds, each "Action" taking 2-3 seconds, there wouldn't be time to reasonably grab it). Assuming the guy is average height, the bomb would have to drop about 7 feet, so there's even less time to prevent it falling.
I feel you did it right. If they wanted an action, I'd have let the closest PC try to reflex save and catch it (probably DC 30+ due to the prohibitive time restraint.)
Though, even catching it wouldn't guarantee it didn't detonate. Most frontliners wear heavy armor and gauntlets, you know.
I think many times players are upset by "surprise" rules. If a bomb was in hand someone should seen it.
Story trumps rules, IMO. You set callout that indicated what would happen if he died, the archer killed him anyway. Hence, they triggered the effect, ready action or not.
Precisely. The onl case I could make against this is if you had never presented your players with a fight that couldn't be won through cutting up everyone. You established pretty well in this fight what would happen if you killed the villain, then they killed him, smooth move. If this is the first situation where you punished them for their stupidity after playing for 5+ sessions, then I could see why this would cause problems.
I think many times players are upset by "surprise" rules. If a bomb was in hand someone should seen it.
I don't feel it was really surprise. BBEG hold up a spherical object with an appropriately ominous statement when he's close to death. Something should have caught their attention. And the effect is really no different than a myriad of spell effects that deal damage, this one was just triggered by his death (similar to the death throes monster ability) instead of turn activated.
If they knew it was a bomb maybe they would have tried for a disarm. And a that statement does not make anything obvious. The object could have have had any number of effects.
Any number of effects, all of which could be assumed bad for the party.
"Do it, send us all to Hell" can, yes, be any number of things: Opens rift to literal hell, explodes, binds everyone's soul to name a few. Case being, something bad will happen.
The statement comes in the midst of combat, while being mauled on by a heavy melee attacker and this, assumedly, outnumbered, outmatched enemy pauses his combat to hold up an unidentified orb and say that. While being killed.
It doesn't really matter if it was a bomb or not. It was an unknown variable that appeared on the battlefield, and was given enough telegraphing that the PCs should have gotten a feel that something was up. The archer chose to react as normal and shoot the guy to death.
I'd call this a surprise if, as he was dying (not on his turn), he pulled a smile-and-wave before triggering the bomb. Nothing the players could do, and knew nothing of it.
It is not a readied action, it is just a consequence of killing the anti-paladin. When the ranger shot him dead, he dropped everything and that stuff falls to the floor and whatever consequences occur. It is that simple.
If the party wanted to plan it better, the ranger could have delayed a moment and another party member (maybe the barbarian, if his turn came up again), could have made a declaration like "I ready an action to grab the bomb before it hits the ground in the event the anti-paladin is killed." Specific, yes, and it may not have happened if the ranger did not drop the anti-paladin, but it would have potentially stopped the detonation.
That would have made for an even more dramatic scene. However, you ran it fine and players like to whine a lot (as both a DM and a player, I feel comfortable saying that).
Thanks for the replies,
The PCs argued that he wouldn't have time for a third readied action. They suggested that his Standard Touch of Corruption and move equivalent draw item would be all he could do.
Technically speaking, they are correct. Ready is a Standard action, and it specifically says you can ready a Move, Standard, Swift, OR Free action (not any combination of the above).
So if he held up the bomb and Readied an action to Touch of Corruption (what was the trigger for that?) and then drop the Bomb, he essentially used TWO Standard actions, which is a no-no.
That is an issue separate from "The bomb simply fell when he died" (I would have allowed someone a Dex, Sleight of Hand, or maybe Acrobatics check to catch it myself, at the very least in that case).
If the Ranger was really clever, he would have shot the bomb out of the antipaladin's hand.
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I would have run it exactly as you did. The players are correct, but the plot special ability trumps the rules. I'd probably have told the players that the bomb was magically tied to his life force so that when he died[or his life dropped below x% or something] it would detonate, just to keep them from making a huge deal about it, but still I feel that as a GM I'd not be doing my job if I didn't occasionally break the rules in exchange for the story, as it is the GM's job to tell a cooperative story.
I would also say that if the bomb were to fall, it would happen in between the action that dropped the Antipaladin to below 0 and the action taken after that, and would be free. I might allow a PC a reflex save to catch it. That is, if I were making it "fall".
I think I get what your asking:
The BBEG died on the Ranger's turn. Does the bomb drop then or does it drop when it comes around to the initiative count the BBEG would have gone on if he didn't have the distinct disadvantage of being dead?
If that is the case, I think the answer is the bomb drops on the Ranger's turn - as soon as the villain died. Like, immediate action kind of soon.. interrupting the Ranger's turn and everything (assuming he had some turn left).
The only thing I can think of to really back this up is falling. If a character springs a pit trap or is pushed off a cliff or has their feather fall spell countered - they fall immediately. In fact, it is a free action since once they hit bottom they can continue their turn (unless they have the distinct disadvantage of being dead too).
Hope that helps
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I also think you ran it just fine. If the 'bomb' could be activated on impact, then it falling to the ground as his corpse hit the floor is makes perfect sense.
The players may not like it, but there are times when events are beyond their control.
As a side note, you should not need to argue with your players. IF this is happening, then they have a lack of confidence in your GMing. If they disagree with something that happens, it certainly is a good idea to take a moment to listen to their perspective...but once you decide the outcome, it should end there and they should accept your ruling. If it devolves into an argument, it means your players lack some confidence and respect for you as a GM.
I am not sure I agree it depends on what you were planing.
If he was trying to threaten then so he could escape I would agree that narrative trumps specific in this case and the bomb goes off from falling on the ground.
If he was trying to take them out with him he would have just dropped the bomb as a free action and it shouldn't have gone off.
Antipaladin's turn, Standard Action: Touch of Corruption. Move action: Draw item and hold it up. Free Action says, "Do it, Send us all to Hell".
There was no "Readied Action". Does that RAW the item is not active outside his turn? I think most of you suggest that the bomb drops and detonates, possibly with a save. I allowed all in range a save.
With all of the Confusion I mainly want to know if the bomb should, in fact, fall at the end of the Ranger's turn, AKA moment of Enemy death. A conclusive answer on that might effect future game play.
Thanks for all of your feedback here. Trying to be a better GM.
The problem I have with all of this is it doesn't make a ton of sense that it would just detonate go boom like that if he fell down. Presumably it'd still be clutched in his hand as he fell, or at least that's one possible interpretation.
I think perhaps the problem here may lie in a lack of description?
EX, How It went Down:
Player: "I kill him."
GM: "Okay, so his Bomb goes off."
Player(s): "Wait, WHAT? But I killed him, how'd he have time to do anything?"
How the players saw it: "I killed the enemy, and the Bomb still went off! That's super lame."
How the GM saw it: "Well they killed the guy...of course the Bomb is going to explode when it hits the ground."
How it could have been avoided: "As <Ranger's Name Here>'s arrow hits the Antipaladin, he slowly falls over...dropping the orb as he goes limp, his hand no longer able to hold it aloft. After it leaves his grasp, it hits the ground, triggering an explosion! Roll Reflex saves, please."
From a hard rules standpoint you're players are correct-ish. However, as a GM I would have ran it as you did. Occasionally story trumps rules.
Honestly, the only thing that was "broken" is that you created a unique item that was activated as part of manipulating the item and that a moderate impact would set it off. And in this case, it was necessary for it to work from a story perspective. NPCs don't always have to follow the rules, and "for the sake of the narrative" is a valid reason why.
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The stunned condition causes anything in hand to be dropped. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to apply the same to the dead condition. From a rules standpoint I think you're fine.
From a story/player trust perspective, if you played it like you portrayed it in your OP, I'd think you gave them warning enough. Their perception may not agree with yours though. Sometimes you really have to hit players over the head with what seems obvious to you.
I'd have done exactly the same thing as you did. Them's the breaks when you shoot a big bad holding a bomb.
Thoughts:
<barbarian>I sunder the bomb.
<two-handed club wielding fighter>: I do a Babe Ruth/Mark McGwire/Mighty Casey impression and smack the bomb into the next county.
<jedi> I force-push the bomb away (oops wrong system).
<wizard>: Time-stop.
Thoughts:
<barbarian>I sunder the bomb.
<two-handed club wielding fighter>: I do a Babe Ruth/Mark McGwire/Mighty Casey impression and smack the bomb into the next county.
<jedi> I force-push the bomb away (oops wrong system).
<wizard>: Time-stop.
All these sound like great ideas if the players had said I READY my X to do Y.
But if my character "drops"(ie kills) someone, then they do just that "drop". If you kill someone they don't drop prone on THEIR go (otherwise they would be in the way until the next time they were supposed to move) it is implicitly assumed they drop on the killers go.
So unless the party had readied an action to deal with the bomb (which they could have based on the OPs description of the BigBads final words), then they wouldnt get a chance to dispose of the bomb. (IMO)
to be fair to the players you probably should have roll falling damage for object and see if it breaks thus triggering the bomb. pretty easy to do with a glass bomb but if it is made out of something more sturdy then, it may not go off. Glass had hardness of 1 hp of 1, half damage from the fall 1d6 damage. So 4 or better on d6 bomb goes off. anything lower and the players got lucky.
This sounds pretty dang fair.
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So, presumably, the bomb was not armed before he drew it. (otherwise, it could have gone off any time he was hit, bumped or jostled, assuming it is impact triggered). Technically, short of a special ability, he should not have been able to cast (standard), draw (move), and arm (typically at least move) the bomb.
now, if the guy really is crazy enough to carry the equivalent of flasks of plutonium laced nitroglycerin, then this is totally legit. If it is more like a modern hand grenade dead man switch, just give him quickdraw(bomb) and you are fine. ;)
Thoughts:
<barbarian>I sunder the bomb.
<two-handed club wielding fighter>: I do a Babe Ruth/Mark McGwire/Mighty Casey impression and smack the bomb into the next county.
<jedi> I force-push the bomb away (oops wrong system).
<wizard>: Time-stop.
Trying to figure out the logic behind a bomb that goes off from a gentle fall to the ground but not being his by a sword from a man who can do exponentially more damage.
I'm with Rynjin here in thinking a Reflex save is in order. I'd give everyone adjacent a chance to catch the bomb before it hits the ground. If you use Hero Points, consider making them spend one of those.
I'd start the next session asking why the players were confused. If they genuinely just thought the guy was bluffing or whatever, that's one thing. If they didn't understand what he was even saying, though, there's something you need to work on.
Next, announce that you're going to do a small rollback and let those adjacent try to catch the bomb. It's more realistic, anyways.
The ranger should have held his action, and waited for another party member to do something more appropriate.
~9 m/s
Close.
Gravity is an exponential curve expressed as:
s = (iVt) + ( (1/2)at^2)
iV = initial velocity, t = time, a = acceleration
s1 = (0(1)) + ((1/2)(9.8)(1^2)) = 4.9 meters or 16.1 feet in the first second
s2 = (4.9(1)) + ((1/2)(9.8)(2^2)) = 24.5 meters or 80.5 feet total in the second, second
s3 = (24.5(1)) + ((1/2)(9.8)(3^2)) = 68.6 meters or 225.4 feet total in the third second
s4 = (68.6(1)) + ((1/2)(9.8)(4^2)) = 147 meters or 483 feet total in the forth second
s5 = (147(1)) + ((1/2)(9.8)(5^2)) = 269.5 meters or 885.5 feet total in the fifth second
s6 = (269.5(1)) + ((1/2)(9.8)(6^2)) = 445.9 meters or 1,465.1 feet total in the sixth second
1,465 feet = 1 round. If you fall from this high or higher, you take the maximum of 20d6 damage. It is really hard to grab something if you don't grab it right away. Try this out with a bouncy ball at your house. Drop it, wait half a second, and try to grab it before it hits the floor.
HOWEVER, if you are catapulting a cow over a cities walls, the math is a little different :oP
Assuming your guy is holding the bomb over his head, maybe 7 feet.
sx = (0(x)) + ((1/2)(32.2)(x^2)) = 7; x = 0.65 seconds for the bomb to hit the floor.
The average person's brain takes 0.025 seconds to register things happening and then another 0.2 seconds to react to what has been seen. This leaves a window of 0.425 seconds for a close combatant to catch said bomb. After 0.225 seconds, the bomb has fallen 0.8 feet. Is grabbing the bomb theoretically possible? Yes. Is grabbing the bomb realistic by any means of the imagination? Nope.
Thank you Sarrah. I am not a math/physics person at all (Social sciences here), so that illustrates my thoughts more precisely. Although I think, based on your information, it would drop more than .8...nevermind, I'm probably physicsing wrong again.
The anti-paladin could presumably have dropped the bomb on his own turn. Dropping things is a free action. Giving the players a chance to disarm him was generous if it was made clear to them what was going on, which I doubt it was.
After all, bombs that you can trigger by dropping as a free action are not, as far as I know, a normal part of Pathfinder. Suppose I got a load of firebombs that did fire damage when dropped, and then gave myself resistance to fire; I could go around exploding them and hurting all my enemies while still performing normal actions.
Trying to figure out the logic behind a bomb that goes off from a gentle fall to the ground but not being his by a sword from a man who can do exponentially more damage.
Depends on the nature of the bomb. Certain modern explosives are very shock resistant. You can smack them with a hammer all you want and they won't do anything but deform. You need a proper detonator to get them to explode. Even if the bomb is the classic bundle of red sticks of dynamite, lop off the end with the fuses and you've greatly reduced the size of the explosion (assuming the other end doesn't go up in a sympathetic detonation).
If it's only the shock of landing when dropped, that's a dangerously sensitive bomb. If it's something like a grenade spoon or a dead-man switch, severing things in the right place might prevent detonation or cause it.
I remember a sci-fi story with a WWII tech level atomic bomb that someone was trying to detonate manually. Another character shot the bomb. A third character asked if he was trying to kill them all, but was told that an atomic bomb is a complicated device that must have a lot of things happen exactly right. If they don't, perhaps only the triggering charge goes off or the bomb doesn't go critical.
If the bomb is more of a dead-man's switch trigger, it could easily have detonated as soon as it is released after the muscles go slack with death.