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If you are in a mythic campaign. at mid to high levels, the Sohei will pull ahead thanks to the love mythic range feats get. Mythic Rapid shot give you 1 more extra attack or no -2 penalties on your attacks. Mythic Many shot gives you an additional 2 arrow attack with your 2nd attack.
Thats 2 more arrows into the air without the need for ki or other limited resources.
I wasn't going to go there specifically because Mythic is so much better for characters using traditional options from the CRB and APG (like, basic class features and feats like Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, etc.).
In a Mythic Campaign there's really not even much of a debate because the Mythic materials just don't account for and support as much of the Zen Archer's uniqueness. That's true of most of the archetypes that do something in a very unusual way, like stat swaps (WIS for DEX), or abilities that are entirely unique in their mechanics.
On the other hand, there are some synergies that swing the advantage back to the ZA. I really want to play an evangelist of Erastil with a Zen Archer base. Double wisdom to hit and Wisdom to damage on all bow attacks, in addition to level 19 Zen Archer abilities.
Animal ally and sohei certainly seem like a great way to have a buff as hell horsy. =)
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Honestly though, the correct answer is Cavalier 4/Sohei 16 :P
You can still qualify for Horse Master with the Luring Cavalier archetype, which would also let you apply Challenge bonuses to ranged attacks. I think Order of the Wild from Knights of the Inner Sea gives you a bonus to your ranged attack rolls as an Order ability, so that's probably your best mounted archer combo right there.
Have to say, I'm leaning very strongly towards thinking the best role for the Sohei is a mounted melee combatant with a modest investment in archery as a backup. As long as he can bring his mount along, Being able to move and flurry thanks to Mounted Skirmisher already makes melee a much more attractive option for the Sohei.
Of course, at that point we're comparing a mounted melee combatant with a good backup bow to a dedicated archer, which might be a bit too dissimilar for a proper comparison.
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I don't think you actually get WIS to hit twice from that combo. Both abilities allow you to use your WIS instead of your DEX, so they just overlap.
The Evangelist actually doesn't say that it's instead of another stat, simply, "When using a longbow you add your Wisdom bonus on attack and damage rolls..." which implies they probably do stack, otherwise it's a pretty terrible rank 3 Boon.
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I don't think you actually get WIS to hit twice from that combo. Both abilities allow you to use your WIS instead of your DEX, so they just overlap.The Evangelist actually doesn't say that it's instead of another stat, simply, "When using a longbow you add your Wisdom bonus on attack and damage rolls..." which implies they probably do stack, otherwise it's a pretty terrible rank 3 Boon.
Before anyone brings up the "NO DOUBLE DIPPING" argument, there's an formal FAQ petition on this very type of situation. It is found HERE.
Modifiers from ability scores aren't actually bonuses, strictly speaking. If they are, they're untyped bonuses—which means they stack with all other bonuses except themselves. Thus, if you have multiple things that say "Add your Dex modifier to this roll," you only get to add your Dex modifier once.
So, to answer the actual question:
1) Nope; it's not a typed bonus. It stacks with all other modifiers, but can't stack with itself.
2) If you have Fury's Fall and Weapon Finesse, you've basically got two feats with overlapping effects. You don't get to add your Dexterity modifier more than once to CMB if it's already been included due to any other effect. SO! If you have Weapon Finesse... you'll only want to look at taking Fury's Fall if you're expecting to be using weapons you can't modifier via Weapon Finess to make trip attacks. Otherwise, Fury's Fall is a waste for you.
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LinkyModifiers from ability scores aren't actually bonuses, strictly speaking. If they are, they're untyped bonuses—which means they stack with all other bonuses except themselves. Thus, if you have multiple things that say "Add your Dex modifier to this roll," you only get to add your Dex modifier once.
So, to answer the actual question:
1) Nope; it's not a typed bonus. It stacks with all other modifiers, but can't stack with itself.
2) If you have Fury's Fall and Weapon Finesse, you've basically got two feats with overlapping effects. You don't get to add your Dexterity modifier more than once to CMB if it's already been included due to any other effect. SO! If you have Weapon Finesse... you'll only want to look at taking Fury's Fall if you're expecting to be using weapons you can't modifier via Weapon Finess to make trip attacks. Otherwise, Fury's Fall is a waste for you.
This quote is among the heated discussion on the issue, but this is the advice subform, therefore it should be saved for the rules forum :).
I love James Jacobs, I greatly appreciate his input in many circumstances, but I also recognize that his decisions are not binding (And I dearly hope it's not, there's several cases that this comes up that I'd prefer the "stacking" side of things).
Back to disagree with yall that think the best mounted archer is Sohei/Cavlier. It takes 1 feat to get the AC across all your levels. I thought with 3 feats I can still do that with any class. So I give to you my Sohei/WeaponMaster
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Ability Scores:
STR: 24 (+7) (14 base, +4 tome, +6 belt)
DEX: 32 (+11) (15 base, +2 racial, +4 level, +5 Tome, +6 belt)
CON: 20 (+5) (13 base, +1 level, +6 belt)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 18 (+4) (12 base, +6 Headband)
CHA: 8 (-1)
Saving Throws
Fort: +25 Ref: +27 Will: +22 (+2 vs enchantments)
AC: 50 - Touch 39, Flatfooted 32 (+10 base +8 armor bonus, +11 dex, +6 Mirror Moves, +3 Barkskin, +5 Ring of Protection, +6 Monk bonus)
Attacks: C.Longbow +47; 1d8+23+1d6 dmg (19-20/x3)
Deadly Aim +41; 1d8+35+1d6
Flurry, DA, RS +36(x2)/+36/+36/+31/+31/+26/+21; 1d8+35+1d6 dmg (19-20/x3)
With Ki & Haste +37(x2)/+37/+37/+37/+37/+32/+32/+27/+22; 1d8+35+1d6 dmg (19-20/x3)
Fighter Class Abilities:
Weapon Guard (replaces Bravery)
Weapon Training +3 (replaces Armor Training)
Reliable Strike (replaces Weapon Training 1)
Mirror Move (replaces Weapon Training 2)
Monk Class Abilities:
Flurry of Blows
Devoted Guardian (replaces Stunning Fist)
Evasion
Monastic Mount (replaces Fast movement & Increase unarm damage)
Maneuver Training
Still Mind
Ki Pool (10 points)
Ki Weapon (replaces slow fall and abundant step)
High Jump or Barkskin
Weapon Training (replaces Purity of Body, Diamond Body, Quivering Palm, Timeless Body, Tongue of Sun and moon)
Wholeness of Body
BAB: +18 CMB: +27 CMD: 48
Feats:
Human: Nature Soul
1st Level: Point Blank Shot
Fighter 1st: Precise Shot
Fighter 2nd: Rapid Shot
3rd Level: Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Fighter 4th: Weapon Spec (Longbow)
5th Level: Deadly Aim
Monk 1st: Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 1st: Mounted Combat
Monk 2nd: Mounted Skirmisher
7th Level: Animal Ally
9th Level: Boon Companion
Monk 6th: Mounted Archery
11th Level: Many Shot
13th Level: Improved Point Blank Shot
Fighter 6th: Cluster Shots
15th Level: Point Blank Master
Fighter 8th: Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow)
17th Level: Improved Initiative
Fighter 10: Improved Critical
19th Level: Iron Will
Fighter 12: Greater Weapon Spec (Longbow)
Skills:
Max Perception
Max Ride
Some Acrobatics
Some Sense Motive
Some Stealth
Sprinkle last ranks out
Gear (880,000gp):
Belt of physical perfection+6 (144,000g, 1lb)
Manual of dexterity +5 (expended, 137,500gp)
Manual of strength +4 (expended, 110,000gp)
Composite Seeking Merciful *str24* longbow+5 (99,100gp, 3lb, hardness 15, hp55)
Vest of armour+8 (64,000gp, 1lb)
Ring of protection+5 & counterspells (56,000gp; greater dispel 660gp)
Headband of Wis+6 (36,000gp, 1lb)
Ring of Ki Mastery & Substance & counterspells (19,750gp; greater dispel 660gp)
Greater bracers of archery (25,000gp)
Cloak of resistance+5 (25,000gp, 1lb)
Luckstone (20,000gp)
Deulist Gloves (16,000g)
Boots of speed (12,000gp, 1lb)
Bottle of air (7250gp, 1lb)
ioun stone +1 armor (5000gp)
eyes of the eagle (2500gp)
handy haversack (2000gp, 5lb)
2 ioun torches (150gp)
mwk backpack (50gp, 4lb)
300 arrows (15gp, 45lb)
cold iron knuckle (2gp, 1lb)
2 weapon cords
98,430 gp
His attack routine is:
Flurry with Deadly Aim, Haste, Manyshot, burning Ki point =
+37(x2)/+37/+37/+37/+37/+32/+32/+27/+22; 1d8+35+1d6 dmg (19-20/x3)
His average damage per round is 399.9!
This is vs AC 38 which I got from averaging the AC of a Balor, Pitfiend, and Great wyrm Red dragon.
This can be tweaked a bit, Improved Critical will help a lot. He doesn’t need the 3 Feats for the Animal companion but I thought it had great synergy with the Sohei Monastic Mount. Also he has about 100k to spend. On top of that, I didn’t know how to factor in Reliable Strike, so that dpr is unaccounted for.
Now Animal Ally gives limited selection of ACs. So you could possible talk to your GM about flexing the list. That would help get a Pegasus or some flying creature. Also I used the Elite Array for stats, and Estimated Wealth by level for gold.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So, yeah, Zen Archers make better archers than a sohei, by far.
+1
I'll go on to expand on my "Sohei would be useless" info:
Sohei get mostly useless stuff that make you feel good (the surprise round stuff when 99% of GM's don't do surprise rounds anyway.)
They get Mounted Combat feats, but it doesn't say they don't need to meet pre-reqs (so people say they don't need to because the core class ones don't need pre-reqs) so you absolutely will have GM's that say you need pre-reqs. Because this will happen, you can't say this is a "feature."
Point Blank Master and Improved Precise Shot are too late to be relevant with Sohei.
Why Zen:
Prime stat of Wisdom for To Hit and other abilities that trigger off Wisdom.
Perfect Strike with "saving the day"
Better flavor
So, yeah, Zen Archers make better archers than a sohei, by far.+1
While I agree they are better Archers, you would need to define what context you are using for "better". After level 15, the Sohei would have everything they need to put out more dpr than a ZenArcher. Since this is the end of a character career I think that is kind of useless, but if you are doing One-Shot high level stuff then the Sohei is very very scary.
I really think they can get the highest dpr at level 20.
Honestly though, the correct answer is Cavalier 4/Sohei 16 :PYou can still qualify for Horse Master with the Luring Cavalier archetype, which would also let you apply Challenge bonuses to ranged attacks. I think Order of the Wild from Knights of the Inner Sea gives you a bonus to your ranged attack rolls as an Order ability, so that's probably your best mounted archer combo right there.
Add to that the magic saddle that gives your mount the teamwork feats you have and have fun.
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Sohei get mostly useless stuff that make you feel good (the surprise round stuff when 99% of GM's don't do surprise rounds anyway.)
Just because you and the GMs you play with decide not to use all of the rules, does not mean that the rules cease to exist. Surprise Rounds are commonly used by most GMs I've played with, and the feature has actually been a life-saver on more than one occasion. The fact that it's doubly boosted by adding 1/2 class level to Initiative and that part of their capstone is always rolling 20 on initiative, this is really an effective ability. Battles can be won and lost based on who goes first.
They get Mounted Combat feats, but it doesn't say they don't need to meet pre-reqs (so people say they don't need to because the core class ones don't need pre-reqs) so you absolutely will have GM's that say you need pre-reqs. Because this will happen, you can't say this is a "feature."
That would be GMs house-ruling and not something that weighs against the class. The Sohei can select mounted combat feats for his bonus feats. Monks do not need to meet the prereqs for their bonus feats. Since the Sohei feature does not replace the core monk feature, it works exactly the same.
Point Blank Master and Improved Precise Shot are too late to be relevant with Sohei.
Far less relevant for a mounted combatant with an initiative boost.
So basically all of your "Sohei would be useless" list actually boils down to "my group doesn't pay attention to any of that stuff so I don't care". Those are two very different things.
Add to that the magic saddle that gives your mount the teamwork feats you have and have fun.
What? I didnt know something like that existed. You must tell me the name.
Please.
@Ssalarn: What did you think of the Mounted Sohei/Weaponmaster?
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Add to that the magic saddle that gives your mount the teamwork feats you have and have fun.What? I didnt know something like that existed. You must tell me the name.
Please.
@Ssalarn: What did you think of the Mounted Sohei/Weaponmaster?
I liked it! I was thinking that there was probably a decent way to combo Fighter and Sohie and parlay those extra feats into wiggle room for Animal Ally.
Doesn't having that many level of Fighter mean you actually have 1 less attack than listed? Flurry gives you the ITF attack at 8th and the GTF attack at 15th, so if you don't get to 15th in monk you wouldn't get that attack, right? That would mean you've got one less attack, but I don't think that's playing too big a role in your DPR anyways so probably still a worthwhile trade.
Add to that the magic saddle that gives your mount the teamwork feats you have and have fun.What? I didnt know something like that existed. You must tell me the name.
Please.
The Horsemaster's Saddle. A bit pricy as 12 000 GP, but very handy with the right build.
Doesn't having that many level of Fighter mean you actually have 1 less attack than listed? Flurry gives you the ITF attack at 8th and the GTF attack at 15th, so if you don't get to 15th in monk you wouldn't get that attack, right? That would mean you've got one less attack, but I don't think that's playing too big a role in your DPR anyways so probably still a worthwhile trade.
Yea I had to weigh out the extra attack (at BAB -10) vs the +1 hit (G.weapon focus), +2 dmg (G.weapon Spec), and the increase of Weapon Training by 1 (another +1/+1).
With the DPR its not worth the loss of +2/+3 to all my attacks.
Other things to consider are the tradeoff of increased hp and more Feats of the fighter vs the better saves and flexibility of the Monk. Since that stuff wasn't really effecting DPR did not bother with it too much.
@kudaku: Thanks
I never noticed that. Completely silly! Tells you you can't use these feats then gives you the feats as a bonus feat.
Now there is a reason for this. The feats Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot weren't out yet when this archetype came out. Zen Archer is APG and those 2 feats are Ultimate Combat.
I'm housing ruling this to Snap Shot and Improved Snapshot. It just makes sense. It will replace Rapid Shot and Many Shot. I'm sure if the Zen Archer had come out in the UC that's what it would be.
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Something that just occurred to me (and I think works) is that the Zen Archer has the possibility to hugely buff his damage dice for arrows with just a couple of low level buffs. Ki Arrow allows him to use his Unarmed Damage dice for arrow attacks... Enlarge will increase his unarmed damage by once step, Strong Jaw will increase it by another 2 (not a size enhancement so it stacks and a monks unarmed counts as a manufactured AND natural weapon, so it affects it).
At level 5 this would turn 1d8 into 4d6, at level 10 1d10 into 4d8, at 15th 2d6 into 6d6 and at 20th 2d10 into 8d8. That's a pretty huge improvement that is going to massively up his DPR, and of course the usual items like Monks Robe etc buffs it just the same as it would normally. Worth considering.
@suthainn: It would be something to consider. I started this with the DPR olympic rules in which you did not have a chance to buff. Also, does Strong Jaw work on a monk? The spell says natural attacks.
Voska66 reply made me realize how bad we hi-jacked this thread.
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Heh yeah, still, all useful advice and theory!
And yes, it does indeed work and is awesome.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Incidentally, if do you consider minor buffs, it also turns the Zen Archer into a fantastic single shot attacker at higher levels if movement is required. He has enough feats to spring for Vital Strike (and perhaps even Improved), with those couple of buffs up at higher level play he is going to HURT when he hits with one arrow whilst moving.
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define what context you are using for "better". After level 15, the Sohei would have everything they need to put out more dpr than a ZenArcher.
The context of "is the game going to be going on", because in the 50+ characters I've played over to many to count game sessions (PFS alone I've got more than 130 played games) I have been in exactly 9 sessions of a game at 15th level or greater that wasn't a PVP thing.
Basically most games go from 1 to 12 including PFS, and if you don't start having fun until 15th, you suck.
Also, my 4th level Zen Archer would out damage that 15th level Sohei build at level 10, or come very close to doing it. I ran out of mechanically better feats at level 9. So the only way to improve would be to take two levels of Zen to get Improved Precise shot or to buy items. But it was a heavily optimized interlaced Ranger/Fighter/Monk build built around 4 levels of Zen Archer for Wis to attack, AC, Perfect Strike, Point Blank Master at earlier than expected and Ki Pool shenanigans. I couldn't be as good as fast with straight fighter, straight ranger, or any combo of the two. It had to be Zen for the bonus feats to average more than a feat a level for most of the character's life.
So basically all of your "Sohei would be useless" list actually boils down to "my group doesn't pay attention to any of that stuff so I don't care". Those are two very different things.
I have one weekly group and 140+ tables at various cons playing PFS. Pretty much 99 percent of the universe doesn't use surprise.
As for the bonus feat ignoring Pre-reqs. Maybe you didn't understand my post. I agree there is a RAW argument to say they ignore. There is also one to say they don't ignore. So be my guest arguing that point with every GM. I'll just assume they need to meet the pre-reqs until an FAQ says otherwise and not have an issue.
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I have one weekly group and 140+ tables at various cons playing PFS. Pretty much 99 percent of the universe doesn't use surprise.
I am now trying to reconcile my personal '100% of Pathfinder groups use surprise rounds' experience with your personal experience. Maybe you're mistaking 'playing a PFS scenario with no successful ambushes in it' for 'playing PFS with a GM who decides to house-rule away surprise rounds'?
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Maybe you're mistaking 'playing a PFS scenario with no successful ambushes in it'
Fine, I'm mistaking. I'm certainly not saying that any GM said they were house ruling it away. I'm one of the very few GM's that gives a player a perception check to act in Surprise rounds, but I can remember maybe 4 PFS scenarios that give DC's for the surprise or set up scenarios to attempt to ambush the PC's.
It just isn't common enough in the scenarios, in the GM's implementations, or in reality to make the Sohei's "always act" feature any significant value.
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Maybe you're mistaking 'playing a PFS scenario with no successful ambushes in it'Fine, I'm mistaking. I'm certainly not saying that any GM said they were house ruling it away. I'm one of the very few GM's that gives a player a perception check to act in Surprise rounds, but I can remember maybe 4 PFS scenarios that give DC's for the surprise or set up scenarios to attempt to ambush the PC's.
It just isn't common enough in the scenarios, in the GM's implementations, or in reality to make the Sohei's "always act" feature any significant value.
Having played in PFS and home groups at plenty if cons and in multiple states and countries, I just think you're objectively wrong. The initiative boost alone is huge. Oftentimes, being the first one to act can change the entire course of combat.
Compounding that by always being able to act in the surprise round, even if you're the team being surprised, is huge.
The fact that in your experience you're one of the only GM's who remembers to give the party a Perception check to act in the surprise round would only make the Sohei's ability even more valuable, as he'd be the only one in the group with a chance of mitigating the attack.
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you're objectively wrong. The initiative boost alone is huge.
always being able to act in the surprise round
We have a different experience at Con's. Fine. Let's leave it at that before I go out and count the number of surprise encounters in PFS modules. ;-)
You certainly value the surprise angle, and I gather you value it so much that you would choose it over 3-4 feats. Because at level 7-9 you are going to be about 3 feats behind if you play a Sohei. I'd rather have all my key feats including Clustered Shot and Vital Strike on top of my required feats like Point Blank Master, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot.
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The fact is that for a game capped at level 12 the Zen Archer is the BEST overall archer. Then Ranger. Then Fighter/Paladin, and at the end of the line is the Sohei.
Not having access to Improved Precise Shot is what kills the Sohei. Because if you are playing Archery correctly, which most PFS GM's will be doing, you will be eating penalties left & right as your allies unintentionally provide cover (and/or concealment in some cases) to your foes.
Sure, you can work around it by putting yourself in harms way, but that just detracts from your survivability.