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According to the Pathfinder Society guide, all scrolls must be bought off the Druid, Cleric, or Wizard spell list. Actually, I'm not so sure if the spell doesn't exist on the spell list of those classes the spell can be bought at all.
My question in regard to UMD. Can my paladin with a wizard spell of monstrous physique two emulate the Charisma score instead of the intelligence score when activating a scroll using UMD? It is after all, a wizard spell scroll which uses the intelligence score in regard to casting spells.
Normally, I would buy a sorcerer scroll but, that is not available to me according to the Pathfinder Society guide. If I were a sorcerer casting from a wizard scroll because of the rules of the Pathfinder Society guide, I would be using a caster level five fireball spell, haste spell, or what have you at level 3, and still get it off. Though I am a sorcerer, these rules are specific to Pathfinder Society in the Pathfinder Society guide, not in normal play.
I'm wondering if it would work the same way when I cast a scroll substituting charisma for Intelligence when activating a scroll for the spell monsters physique two using UMD? Even though it is a wizard spell and I am a Paladin?
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there's no such thing as a sorcerer scroll or wizard scroll.
Its simply an arcane scroll.
Unless the spell is on an arcane caster's list that is not sorcerer or wizard, then it would be an arcane scroll that only a say Magus would be able to cast without UMD.
But because Intelligence and Charisma are both useable for arcane spells (unless its specifically say a Magus spell, then it would definitely need intelligence), you can try to emulate whatever ability you want with UMD.
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All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables are
made by clerics, druids, or wizards in Pathfinder Society
Organized Play.
The only exceptions are spells that are not on
the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list. For example, a scroll of
lesser restoration must be purchased as a 2nd-level scroll off the
cleric spell list and may not be purchased as a 1st-level scroll
off the paladin spell list. If a spell appears at different levels
on two different lists, use the lower level spell to determine
cost.
So that clears up point 1: you can definitely buy bard only spell items.
Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you're emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don't need to make this check.
I believe that since its both a wizard and sorcerer spell you can use whatever ability score you want. I'll go rules diving and see if i can find something official on that.
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I'll let BNW do his rule diving before I add any more thoughts.
However, Shadowdax, your L3 Sorceror for your fireball example needs to make a caster level check to use that scroll:
"[if] her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a scroll mishap. A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does. If the caster level check fails but no mishap occurs, the scroll is not expended."
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An arcane scroll doesn't know the difference between who created it's classes and who's using it's classes. And so it'd be treated as a scroll for that character's class. A sorcerer casts a spell from a scroll and treats it as if a sorcerer created the scroll for those purposes. It's just easier bookkeeping.
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Thank you Andrew Christian. The idea is to turn into a monstrous humanoid with six arms and carry two weapons. I would be using a two handed reach weapon and a sword, both being trip weapons taking up three arms. Being size large W/an out reach for four squares in every direction and threatening them, I would be commanding the battlefield. This character has the greater trip feat and combat reflexes. There are other goodies too, but those would be the tip of the spear.
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According to the Pathfinder Society guide, all scrolls must be bought off the Druid, Cleric, or Wizard spell list. Actually, I'm not so sure if the spell doesn't exist on the spell list of those classes the spell can be bought at all.
emphasis mine,
The Guide really only states that you have to buy them off the Druid, Cleric, or Wizard spell list unless they don't know appear on those lists.
Guide, pg. 23 "All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables are
made by clerics, druids, or wizards in Pathfinder Society
Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells that are not on
the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list."
Just for what it counts, for those instances of magus only, ranger only, oracle only or paladin only spells or any other "class-only" spell. I just wanted to clear that up, because I felt the initial sentence was misleading. Otherwise I guess I have nothing else to contribute except your concept sounds terrifying.
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Big Norse Wolf, Codanous and Sammy T, I did not see you all when I originally saw the first post.I thank you for your support on this matter. I appreciate all the rules diving that has been done. I was confused on the matter and in doing research I've learned to come the places like these message boards. Once again, thank you all for helping me put on some stupid crack cheese and getting it correct.
Nefreet, why wouldn't the Calikang be legal and PFS? I thought the book that it was in was PSS legal, or have I heard and remember wrong?
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I didn't see the book listed in the additional rules, the Inner Sea World Guide. According to the additional rules, all creatures are legal for play in the Bestiary 4 for polymorph effects within the boundaries of each spell or abilities parameters.
P242, I have one word for you and some Internet Jargon, "SHOBHAD, FTW." Found in the Bestiary 4!
Technically, I can have a reach weapon with a 18 to 20 crit range that is keen and, a normal two-handed weapon with a crit range of 18 to 20 keen. There is a a lot of potential for damage in damage per round(DPR); However, this character is using a horsechopper and a Khopesh sword.
Besides the feats, there are magical items that increase my modifier to trip my opponents plus this spell monstrous physique II. I won't worry about missing even if I roll a two to trip and I haven't lost a weapon yet tripping at ninth level or less with this paladin.
I didn't use the Calikang, I used the Derhii the most with my Magus and monstrous physique II. That character did not use a reach weapon but, being size large was my reach weapon. A lot of fun having control in a character along with DPR with those previous feats mentioned as the combo.
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Slightly incorrect.
You can't perform two-weapon fighting with two-handed weapons, or a two-handed and a one-handed weapon, or more than two weapons of any handedness (barring iteratives), but you can threaten and make Attacks of Opportunity with any number of weapons.
Err... Did that make sense?
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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That's more or less what I remember. If you became a 4-armed monstrosity, you could 2-hand a sword and have a back-up weapon out or hold a potion, but you couldn't two-weapon-fight with a pair of 2-handed weapons/a 2-handed weapon & a 1-handed weapon/four 1-handed weapons/any variation there-of.
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Where is this rule about not being able to fight with two-handed weapons using the Two weapon fighting feat in a rule book if you had four or more arms? Is it in the two weapon fighting feat itself?
On the other hand, I never intended to use two weapon fighting with these two weapons, a size large, large weapon and a size large, medium weapon.
I imagine attacking one creature with one weapon in a full attack sequence not using two weapon fighting feats and attack with the second weapon hitting another creature would be fine. As long as I take the -5 on the second attack to my BaB on the itinerativ attack.
I'm not looking to get the extra bonus attacks as if I were fighting with the two weapon fighting feats, I simply don't have those feats.
The idea is to cover more ground with attacks of opportunity.
Slightly incorrect.
You can't perform two-weapon fighting with two-handed weapons, or a two-handed and a one-handed weapon, or more than two weapons of any handedness (barring iteratives), but you can threaten and make Attacks of Opportunity with any number of weapons.
Err... Did that make sense?
Erm... you're linking to Jiggy's post there.
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Erm... you're linking to Jiggy's post there.Slightly incorrect.
You can't perform two-weapon fighting with two-handed weapons, or a two-handed and a one-handed weapon, or more than two weapons of any handedness (barring iteratives), but you can threaten and make Attacks of Opportunity with any number of weapons.
Err... Did that make sense?
When I click it I'm lead to N N 959's post. Weird.
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It took me long enough to find it, please understand, I am using a very small screen to read this and cannot see the entire webpage and have missed posts. This is the answer to my question above about multi-weapon fighting unless I am wrong.
3. A multi-armed creature can automatically use a THW and a 1H weapon and make two attacks. In other words, the other arms can all "wield" weapons concurrently. These attacks are made at the -6, -10 penalty.
I imagine with the multi-weapon fighting feet, that is where the -4 to attacks comes in. Am I wrong about this? W/o the multi-weapon fighting feat, the -6 to -10 kick in.
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You can't take the Multiweapon feat in PFS, as it's only found in the Bestiary.
Since you can't find the post, I'll sum it up here.
It doesn't matter how many physical hands your body possesses, or how many weapons you've managed to attach to your person. All PC races have two metaphorical hands that they may use during a full attack.
This premise excludes natural attacks and extra attacks from having a high BAB.
You can full attack with a two-handed weapon, or you can full attack with two one-handed weapons, because each of those routines utilizes two metaphorical hands.
But you could never full attack with two two-handed weapons, because that would require four metaphorical hands.
Multi-armed races, like the Calikang, get around this, because they're born that way, or whatever logic the Designers have come up with, but PC races are always restricted to having no more than two metaphorical hands.
It's a tough concept to grasp (pun intended), but if you get a chance to read the thousands of posts that have been written on the matter, it all starts to make sense.
Except, of course, when AoOs, natural attacks, and iterative attacks enter the picture.
I think a more appropriate question is: why are you lying to magical items as a paladin. the UMD skill is all about misrepresenting yourself, which seems anathetical to the paladin mindset, and arguably items might have some lifeforce or sentience, so you might be lying to a sentient being, which voids some paladin's warrantiesCodes.
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I think a more appropriate question is: why are you lying to magical items as a paladin. the UMD skill is all about misrepresenting yourself, which seems anathetical to the paladin mindset, and arguably items might have some lifeforce or sentience, so you might be lying to a sentient being, which voids some paladin'swarrantiesCodes.
"Vrog Skyreaver," relying on magical items, this character is a Paladin of ninth level. I have a horsechopper that is a plus one adamantine weapon. The khopesh sword is a plus one adamantine weapon. Those are the only two magical weapons this character has that's bladed. I doubt I will make them any better for 3 to 5 levels to come.
As for my armor class, I have plus two plate mail armor, a plus one amulet, a plus one ring, a dusty rose Ioun stone, a jingasa and that's it. Currently, even with a +2 dexterity I have been armor class of 26. That also will not get better for 3 to 6 levels.
The idea is to think out of the box, innovate, and be creative to come up with a cheaper way to increase offense and defense. I come here for research on these matters to stay within the rules of the game. Year four and five mods will seriously challenge you. Nobody plays a Paladin with trip feats. I do not like playing characters the way other people play them. The idea is to stand out and be different and not be like the rest of the herd.
Originally, with out the trait feat dangerously curious, I was only using a wand of Shield. I began to think of that idea at fourth level in the fifth I started using it. I have been using potions of enlarge person since the beginning I started playing this character.
Looking at the animated shield, the idea of using the wand seemed so much cheaper, and more effective. The wand lasts 10 rounds as opposed to animated shields four.
That meant I could use one charge before entering the proverbial haunted mansion, dungeon or what have you and still have plenty of rounds left over for a fight. It is a wand that is 750 gold and is easier to buy as this character gains levels.
Remember, the idea is to not spend all my money on armor class and a sword. I have a retired character, a Magus, that I used to use polymorph spells all the time. I had a lot of fun with monsterous physique two. I was thinking of incorporating that into this character and researching ways how effective it would be.
and my thoughts are that fluff-wise paladins using UMD can be tricky, cause as I said, you're effectively being dishonest.
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Dishonesty? I don't understand where I would be dishonest giving my character options. I'd rather have options than one ubber powerful sword. I'm beginning to think consumables are more powerful than spending all your money on AC and a sword. Consumables give me options where playing the generic Paladin is extremely limiting myself when I know better.
UMD being maxed out expands those possibilities of other options were I wouldn't have them available to me otherwise. Having more options gives my characters a greater chance of survival whether a fighter, rogue or Paladin and only staying in those rolls, ergo, options. As I've said earlier, year five and four mods will seriously challenge you (kill you).
and my thoughts are that fluff-wise paladins using UMD can be tricky, cause as I said, you're effectively being dishonest.
yeaaaahh... no. This is just.. no. Just no.
Are we now arguing that paladins can lose class features based upon how they interact with inanimate objects?
If so I'm going to need to roll humanity against an epic headdesk
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ShadowDax, I agree, in the higher levels its great to be able to use UMD to provide additional support. I too dislike just doing the "norm" for a class build, it can get stale and boring.
I have a dedicated Healer Life Oracle, 10th level, and frankly just healing, while great can get stale. So with his +25 to UMD he has taken to casting arcane scrolls and spending most of his new money just buying scrolls.
Scrolls require a UMD of 20 + Caster level required to cast spell level. So 3rd level spells require a UMD of 25. But that can be worth it when a Scroll of Fly is 375 gold while a potion is 750 gold.
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and my thoughts are that fluff-wise paladins using UMD can be tricky, cause as I said, you're effectively being dishonest.
Please point to a single word or phrase in the UMD description that supports this, even if it is just fluff.
Hint: none of the following words appear in the description: trick, deceive, lie, bluff, fib, fool, con, dupe, ruse, scam, ...
Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you're emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don't need to make this check.
"no, mister scroll, I actually am that smart!"
Emulate an Alignment: Some magic items have positive or negative effects based on the user's alignment. Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice. You can emulate only one alignment at a time.
"I can wield an unholy weapon cause I'm actually....evil! ya, that's the ticket!"
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
"I'm actually a ranger, not a paladin. stupid boots, don't look at me like that!"
Emulate a Race: Some magic items work only for members of certain races, or work better for members of those races. You can use such an item as if you were a member of a race of your choice. You can emulate only one race at a time.
"Like I said, I'm a dwarf, not a human."
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Emphasis mine.
Are you really saying that pretending to be what you're not isn't lying? Then I suppose you're fine with a paladin wielding an unholy weapon as well (perfectly legal using UMD). I'm not saying that you can't do it (clearly you can), I'm just saying that a paladin should be above doing it, and some GMs might believe that it violates their code. Hence why I said tricky.
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crazy stuff
You are emulating the area you are using UMD for.
Emulate: to try to be like.
They are not lying to an object they are try to use the skill or prowess of that other feature.
For example when you do something you only watched someone else do, you try to emulate them.
It is not a lie or deceit.
Reasoning like this is why I do not play a Paladin in PFS.
This post has been railroaded into the realm of "how far can we go before declaring a paladin to be deceiving".
I suppose if UMD is "dishonest", then no Paladin can ever use stealth for any reason?
To be a bit more moderate on the railroading subject - some Paladins may have a large avoidance of anything close to masking and hiding (A zealot of Serenrae might avoid using stealth ever, or avoid any charm and illusion spell, and even avoid UMD), this does not mean that every Paladin is that iron clad in their definition of deceive. They can use camouflage and other accepted battle tactics, they can plead the fifth and avoid answering a question, could pick a lock to free slaves (but isn't that fooling the lock into believing your lockpick is a legitimate key?), etc.
What it means is that you can't go back on your word of honor, or purposefully deceive sentient beings for your own gain / amusement, perform con artist games, lie to any superiors in your hierarchy (though you can say you are bound to not answer a specific question), or doing anything that gives you a reputation as a shady character in general.
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ShadowDax, I agree, in the higher levels its great to be able to use UMD to provide additional support. I too dislike just doing the "norm" for a class build, it can get stale and boring.
I have a dedicated Healer Life Oracle, 10th level, and frankly just healing, while great can get stale. So with his +25 to UMD he has taken to casting arcane scrolls and spending most of his new money just buying scrolls.
Scrolls require a UMD of 20 + Caster level required to cast spell level. So 3rd level spells require a UMD of 25. But that can be worth it when a Scroll of Fly is 375 gold while a potion is 750 gold.
I do the reverse of this with my Sorcerer. I carry a host of divine scrolls, so when necessary I can become a backup divine caster. I've hit the Cleric with Death Ward when he was about to get level drained into non-existence, I've done emergency combat healing, and I've even pulled off using a scroll of Breath of Life (not an auto success) in a round when multiple characters died including my sorcerer (Cleric used BoL on me, I used Breath of Life on the Magus. Thankfully we were next to each other when we went down).
Don't forget another advantage of scrolls over potions... Scrolls of personal spells.
To one of the original questions, I wasn't sure if I'd need to emulate a Wisdom of 15 to use the scroll of BoL. I've only got a 14, but every GM I've asked about it has said having a high enough Charisma is enough since Oracles can use the scrolls.
Emulate: Noun
1. to attempt to equal or excel.
2. to rival with some degree of success.
3. to replace software with hardware to perform the same task (this one is a computer term.)
that aside (and I apologize to the OP for the digression), I think that KestrelZ has a good point: it really depends on the paladin's god, and the GM that you're playing with. And I would definitely say the first time you tried UMD on an intelligent item it would be a violation of the paladin's code (I don't know the ratio now, but in earlier editions, 25% of all magic weapons were intelligent, according to the magic item creation rules).
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The word you are looking for is
impersonate (v)
To pretend to be another person in order to deceive someone.
I am going to go out on a limb and suggest the authors and the editors of the Core Rulebook know this word and would have used it if that was their intention.
Never mind the fact that your definition fails to support your usage, what you omitted from your definition is that the word "emulate" always carries a positive connotation.
As to your last point, in the general PF game, the Core Rulebook suggests that fewer than 1% of magic items are intelligent. In PFS, as far as I'm aware, intelligent items are only available on chronicles. Paladins (or anyone else) using UMD to activate intelligent items is an entire other discussion.
connotations are subjective, not objective. Like I said, if you're fine with a paladin using UMD to wield an unholy weapon with no penalty, I'll be done here.
additionally, according to dictionary.com, imitate is a synonym of emulate.
connotations are subjective, not objective. Like I said, if you're fine with a paladin using UMD to wield an unholy weapon with no penalty, I'll be done here.
additionally, according to dictionary.com, imitate is a synonym of emulate.
wielding an unholy weapon is another discussion as well.
I could see a paladin using an unholy weapon as a bad thing, but the fact of simply using it is bad. Not the application of UMD.
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The word you are looking for is
impersonate (v)
To pretend to be another person in order to deceive someone.I am going to go out on a limb and suggest the authors and the editors of the Core Rulebook know this word and would have used it if that was their intention.
Never mind the fact that your definition fails to support your usage, what you omitted from your definition is that the word "emulate" always carries a positive connotation.
As to your last point, in the general PF game, the Core Rulebook suggests that fewer than 1% of magic items are intelligent. In PFS, as far as I'm aware, intelligent items are only available on chronicles. Paladins (or anyone else) using UMD to activate intelligent items is an entire other discussion.
There is one other way intelligent items are legal for PFS. That is for the Magus's Bladebound archetype's Black Blade, which is an intelligent item.
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Thanks for the digging BigNorseWolf! This is something I wondered about myself.
So, to bring this back around to the original topic, based on this, my Sorcerer can UMD divine scrolls without the wisdom requirement, meeting the score requirement with Charisma (effectively casting as an oracle) is sufficient?
That's an interesting question sir. I would think that you would need to have the wisdom, cause that's the stat the scroll is based on (unless it's an oracle specific spell, in which case CHA would be the stat), as it's assumed that clerics create the bulk of divine scrolls.