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There just seems to be this assumption that everyone on one side of this debate wants homosexuality to take over the game. And I don't see any evidence of that.
A.) Most people hate change.
B.) Most people don't like new ideas, they like old ideas repackaged. See movie remakes that earn lots of $ as proof.Point being, when some people think of a typical fantasy world they think of elves and dwarves and dragons, magic and swords and backstabins. They don't think about real world cultural diversity being represented, or QUILTBAG characters, etc.
When these ideas get pushed to the forefront, it makes some people wonder what will happen to their idyllic fantasy setting that they know and love.
Which really just goes back to A.) Most people hate change.
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Our group (20+ years of gaming together) has had trans, gay, and ambiguously-sexual/gendered members in our group the entire time we've been gaming -- Pathfinder has, without fail, provided a "safe," neutral system for my friends to express themselves without fear of judgement or prejudice. The Anthropologist in me calls out for a more inclusive representation of LGBT characters in the Pathfinder system, but I can't honestly complain about the way this system has represented gender or sexuality in its products -- in general this is a company that provides an "asexual" approach to its products -- thanks, Paizo!!
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If they're wrong... That's awesome right there. Please tell me that you aren't insinuating that someone's personal opinion can be wrong.
I am, and it most certainly can be. "[Insert Minority Here] are subhuman and deserve not to have rights under the law." is a wrong statement on both a factual and moral level, for example.
What is the point of this thread?
Because right now I see no issues about sexuality in Pathfinder right now. I have yet to see statblocks for NPCs mention they hate LGBT or whatever romantically inclined individuals.
Within Pathfinder you are not being oppressed. At PFS, I highly doubt anyone is going to be that pissy about your character's sexual orientation. If it even comes up. And why would it? It's like announcing you're Vegan. I don't give a damn; we have a dragon to slay.
Do yall want Paizo to make a bunch of LGBT NPCs to satisfy the cries for diversity?
Because that sounds pretty damn pointless considering we're already in a good spot already.
What is the point of this thread?
Because right now I see no issues about sexuality in Pathfinder right now. I have yet to see statblocks for NPCs mention they hate LGBT or whatever romantically inclined individuals.
Within Pathfinder you are not being oppressed. At PFS, I highly doubt anyone is going to be that pissy about your character's sexual orientation. If it even comes up. And why would it? It's like announcing you're Vegan. I don't give a damn; we have a dragon to slay.
Do yall want Paizo to make a bunch of LGBT NPCs to satisfy the cries for diversity?
Because that sounds pretty damn pointless considering we're already in a good spot already.
Paizo's been pretty solid on the representation front. Compared to 99% of media out there the Pathfinder world is like the golden goose of not being other'd.
@RDM42: What counts as a neon sign? A pair of married female innkeepers holding hands as they welcome you in is about as obvious as it is benign.
I'm not really sure what the point of the thread is or what some of these arguments are even about, but I do think that representation is very important, and Paizo including all manner of sexualities, ethnicities, genders, etc. is really important.
But still, what's going on in this thread? I'm not even sure anymore.
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I'm not really sure what the point of the thread is or what some of these arguments are even about, but I do think that representation is very important, and Paizo including all manner of sexualities, ethnicities, genders, etc. is really important.
But still, what's going on in this thread? I'm not even sure anymore.
I don't think anyone ever was. I mean, look at my first post! I basically just ramble on...
What is the point of this thread?
Because right now I see no issues about sexuality in Pathfinder right now. I have yet to see statblocks for NPCs mention they hate LGBT or whatever romantically inclined individuals.
Within Pathfinder you are not being oppressed. At PFS, I highly doubt anyone is going to be that pissy about your character's sexual orientation. If it even comes up. And why would it? It's like announcing you're Vegan. I don't give a damn; we have a dragon to slay.
Do yall want Paizo to make a bunch of LGBT NPCs to satisfy the cries for diversity?
Because that sounds pretty damn pointless considering we're already in a good spot already.
Paizo's been pretty solid on the representation front. Compared to 99% of media out there the Pathfinder world is like the golden goose of not being other'd.
@RDM42: What counts as a neon sign? A pair of married female innkeepers holding hands as they welcome you in is about as obvious as it is benign.
Its a background detail.
It's not making a big deal out of it. It's just there. They are innkeepers. They are female. They happen to be in a committed relationship. Now they are welcoming you into the inn and offering you drinks, a meal and a room. There, unless there is some plot point to it or one of the players chooses to pursue the angle, things generally end. I'm not going to make a long, drawn out point of the fact that they happen to have a different sexuality unless its somehow relevant to the interaction at hand.
Fair enough. That's personally what I'd like to see things go towards anyways; it's just that I often times see people use your rhetoric and then claim that any sort of public display counts as a "neon sign" so I get pretty wary of that these days. I apologize for my suspicion.
For me and my games, the subject of my sexuality tends to come up quite often, buuuut that's because me and several of my friends are perverts in a big way and tend to make those sorts of comments as a matter of course. I'd hardly expect the same out of other groups.
And Albatoonoe, no I am pretty sure nobody knows what the real point of this thread is.
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I would guess that a lot of people have ambitions about never ending threads that go to hundreds of posts, and starting a topic guaranteed to bring on the flame tests is about the best way to do so.What is the point of this thread?
Yes, it appears that someone thought that we needed a place to argue, but nobody has posted in the thread and volunteered to be an ~}#€}}*#€.
So far the farthest apart seem to be 'mention the sexual orientation only if it is relevant to the character' and 'okay, but mentioning it isn't a neon sign'.
You people are never going to start a good argument by being all reasonable at each other like that!
While shopping for t-shirts online yesterday I noticed that the list of items Amazon was recommending for me based on recent purchases by customers similar to me was about 1/3 Pathfinder books and about 1/3 gay pride gear. This makes me curious if there’s a deep intersection between the Pathfinder and LGBT communities.It's more likely that 1/3 of your purchases have been Pathfinder books and 1/3 of your purchases have been gay pride gear. Amazon's recommendations for me are 1/4 Pathfinder books, 1/4 recording equipment, and 1/2 Metallica/Avenged Sevenfold/Halo soundtrack albums -- because that's what matches my shopping history and "customers like me".
Perhaps I should have been more clear, but I was surprised that Amazon recommended gay pride gear to me since I haven’t bought any gay pride gear. I wondered what might have prompted Amazon to think I’d be especially interested in such products and suspected that maybe Pathfinder books and polyhedral dice could be the link. I haven't bought much else from there besides a few books and CDs. Maybe listening to Gogol Bordello makes Amazon think I'm gay. Listening to certain music like Tori Amos and PJ Harvey used to make people on Internet chats think I was a lesbian.
Anyhow, I don't have a problem with Paizo putting characters with various sexual orientations in their products, but it sounds like that is already happening. If that makes somebody feel more included perhaps it will have a positive influence on sales. Making people feel excluded probably wouldn't.
As a parent, I do not want any sexually explicit or promotion of sexual lifestyles in PFS. Is Pathfinder going to have a rating system as in movies? I should hope not if it is for an open gaming community. PF at home... fine, do whatever you want, but keep the PFS kid friendly. One person wrote that she wanted homosexuality to be there so the kids would experience that lifestyle. No, keep it out of the game.
I am frustrated at the hateful posts in these discussions. In other discussions, it's been to the point of sexual harassment. It is sexual harassment. I want no part of people forcing their sexuality on me or my kids - I don't care if you are straight, gay or both. Don't write about it, don't include it in the game.
As a parent, I do not want any sexually explicit or promotion of sexual lifestyles in PFS. Is Pathfinder going to have a rating system as in movies? I should hope not if it is for an open gaming community. PF at home... fine, do whatever you want, but keep the PFS kid friendly. One person wrote that she wanted homosexuality to be there so the kids would experience that lifestyle. No, keep it out of the game.
I am frustrated at the hateful posts in these discussions. In other discussions, it's been to the point of sexual harassment. It is sexual harassment. I want no part of people forcing their sexuality on me or my kids - I don't care if you are straight, gay or both. Don't write about it, don't include it in the game.
Not a parent myself, but I appreciate and agree with the sentiment here.
There really isn't a need to push the sexualization of the game anymore than the artwork already does.
It had been one of the goals of the devs to avoid marginalized sexuality, and with their products they have been doing a pretty good job.
Not that the game can't facilitate the LGBT characters, but if what you want is for the game to dedicate and entire sect of mechanics to representation, then it is not equal representation. If you want to play such a character, then do so.
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As a parent, I do not want any sexually explicit or promotion of sexual lifestyles in PFS. Is Pathfinder going to have a rating system as in movies? I should hope not if it is for an open gaming community. PF at home... fine, do whatever you want, but keep the PFS kid friendly. One person wrote that she wanted homosexuality to be there so the kids would experience that lifestyle. No, keep it out of the game.
I am frustrated at the hateful posts in these discussions. In other discussions, it's been to the point of sexual harassment. It is sexual harassment. I want no part of people forcing their sexuality on me or my kids - I don't care if you are straight, gay or both. Don't write about it, don't include it in the game.
I can understand where you're coming from, but that's a slippery slope. Without representation, most children will grow up thinking there's only one sexuality, and that others are 'wrong', which is a huge problem for LGBT people.
I'm all for running a game where none of that ever comes into play, say a dungeon crawl where the players are destroying monsters and never stopping to talk aside from casting spells. But once you get into a more social aspect, as long as you can keep things PG (or even G considering what you want to deal with), placing LGBT characters into your game is good since they exist in real life, so it's good to get children acclimated to the fact that they exist at all.
But in the end it's your call, and no one here is telling you how to raise your children.
"placing LGBT characters into your game is good since they exist in real life"
And there are people who don't agree with it. That doesn't mean you have to force lifestyle choices on others through any and every medium.
"What exactly do you count as sexually explicit or promotion of sexual lifestyles?
So far all I've actually seen is..."
Exactly what I stated above. Like I stated, there was a huge amount of sexually explicit content on another discussion thread (LGBT specific) - which was supported by one of the moderators. Not only that, but huge amounts of hate speech of anyone that disagreed or of anything that didn't support it. That is completely unacceptable for any company.
I know I'll get a lot of hate from those who are on this discussion. That is your choice, but that is also intolerant. Forcing sexual ideologies in games where children are involved is completely unacceptable. You would not want to have an ideology introduced to your kids without your consent, so don't give that double standard.
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Idk, I think the ideology that LGBT people exist and are, well, people with feelings and hopes and dreams that should be treated with respect like other human beings is a fine thing for children to learn. I know, silly concept here, treating people like people.
Besides, saying "this NPC is gay" is no more explicit than saying "this NPC is straight". There literally is no explicitness. None. Watch this.
"You enter the Feisty Goat Tavern, where owner Thaddeus tends the bar and his wife plays the piano."
vs
"You enter the Feisty Goat Tavern, where owner Thaddeus tends the bar and his husband plays the piano."
I literally changed one word and it has the same exact level of "explicitness" as the previous one. And that level is zero.
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As a parent, I do not want any sexually explicit or promotion of sexual lifestyles in PFS. Is Pathfinder going to have a rating system as in movies? I should hope not if it is for an open gaming community. PF at home... fine, do whatever you want, but keep the PFS kid friendly. One person wrote that she wanted homosexuality to be there so the kids would experience that lifestyle. No, keep it out of the game.
I am frustrated at the hateful posts in these discussions. In other discussions, it's been to the point of sexual harassment. It is sexual harassment. I want no part of people forcing their sexuality on me or my kids - I don't care if you are straight, gay or both. Don't write about it, don't include it in the game.
As someone who's been on the receiving end of sexual harassment, I'd like to point out that people disagreeing with you about the ethics of portraying relationships you may not approve of is not at all the same as having someone force verbal and physical sexual attention on you and use coercion and threats to keep you silent about it.
They are not remotely similar.
And not only are you not helping your argument by attempting to appropriate that experience, you're also trivializing my experience and that of anyone else who's had to deal with it.
Stop it.
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"placing LGBT characters into your game is good since they exist in real life"
And there are people who don't agree with it. That doesn't mean you have to force lifestyle choices on others through any and every medium.
"What exactly do you count as sexually explicit or promotion of sexual lifestyles?
So far all I've actually seen is..."
Exactly what I stated above. Like I stated, there was a huge amount of sexually explicit content on another discussion thread (LGBT specific) - which was supported by one of the moderators. Not only that, but huge amounts of hate speech of anyone that disagreed or of anything that didn't support it. That is completely unacceptable for any company.
I know I'll get a lot of hate from those who are on this discussion. That is your choice, but that is also intolerant. Forcing sexual ideologies in games where children are involved is completely unacceptable. You would not want to have an ideology introduced to your kids without your consent, so don't give that double standard.
I'd like to see these examples of which you speak myself, but this thread has had nothing of the kind.
As for 'forcing sexuality', ignoring LGBT is forcing heterosexuality on people. Changing story to make it a woman saving the princess or a man saving the prince isn't anymore sexuality exploitative than a man saving a princess, as was stated above. To remove sexuality from things is fine, but accept that heterosexual is a sexuality as well, instead of considering it 'the default.'
And you can disagree with people being LGBT, but denying it won't make it any less true. I'm pretty glad Paizo seems to accept that these people exist and embrace it.
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I can never understand parents and their obsession with sheltering their kids from real-world stuff. I grew up with a dad from Hell's Kitchen during the Westies' era, and he made sure I was never sheltered. Imagine Red Foreman but Puerto Rican and was stabbed once. I remember when I was ten and I said something about gay people being gross. Got a slap upside the head and a "Stop being a f@$*ing tool" speech.
Fun part was, I got to watch Heavy Metal when I was ten :D
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Pathfinder: Where summoning devils it totally okay, but LGBT is apparently bad.
;)
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I'm pretty glad Paizo seems to accept that these people exist and embrace it.There are plenty of us here. And it is nice to see our own reflections in the things we create sometimes.
I actually try and make sure my class guides are as LGBT friendly as well, using gender neutral language and such and including gender neutral/fluid characters as examples for the class in question.
I told one of my transsexual friends about some of the characters in the APs, and her eyes lit up. The thought of actual representation was mind blowing for her, and only made her want to play more. The joy of seeing someone smile as they're shown that someone like them can be a hero is just perfect.
Keep up the good work.
Pathfinder: Where summoning devils it totally okay, but LGBT is apparently bad.
;)
"We're monsters, but we're not monsters about it."
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Well summoning devils is explicitly evil. =)Pathfinder: Where summoning devils it totally okay, but LGBT is apparently bad.
;)
Bah, fine!
Pathfinder: Where wizards can shoot fireballs from their fingertips, but gay people break verisimilitude.
:p
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If a scenario without explicit depictions of sex features two women who are married to each other I guess that might aggravate some people, but real life sometimes features two women who are married to each other. They might even show up as players at your PFS table. If they start having sex right there at the table you've probably got a valid complaint (or a fulfilled fantasy...I guess it depends who you are...)
@Odraude - Seriously, a young kid might ask about that...
Kid: "Why does Thaddeus have a husband not a wife?"
DM: "That's because Thaddeus is gay."
Kid: "What's gay?"
DM: "It is when a man loves another man instead of a woman."
Kid: "You mean like Daddy loves Grandpa?"
DM: "Probably not, anyhow, his husband is just like a wife, except he's a man."
I'm not saying those are good explanations of what "gay" means. In fact, they're probably kind of clumsy and confusing. I'm not sure if a gaming table with strangers is the ideal scenario for explaining sexual orientation to kids. Parents who care about such things should probably take the initiative to find teachable moments at home. Gay marriage is in the news. President Obama and Vladimir Putin talk about homosexuality. Unless somebody is raising a family of ostriches these issues shouldn't be secret and mysterious anymore.
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Also, in a game where we kill sentient creatures brutally and take their stuff with little to no recourse, it's the gay people that are apparently corrupting the youth.
Gotta tell you, if your kid isn't stabbing people and taking their money, then I'm pretty sure they aren't going to be affected at all by the inclusion of LGBT characters.
Worst case scenario is that they treat LGBT people like human beings!
If a scenario without explicit depictions of sex features two women who are married to each other I guess that might aggravate some people, but real life sometimes features two women who are married to each other. They might even show up as players at your PFS table. If they start having sex right there at the table you've probably got a valid complaint (or a fulfilled fantasy...I guess it depends who you are...)
@Odraude - Seriously, a young kid might ask about that...
Kid: "Why does Thaddeus have a husband not a wife?"
DM: "That's because Thaddeus is gay."
Kid: "What's gay?"
DM: "It is when a man loves another man instead of a woman."
Kid: "You mean like Daddy loves Grandpa?"
DM: "Probably not, anyhow, his husband is just like a wife, except he's a man."I'm not saying those are good explanations of what "gay" means. In fact, they're probably kind of clumsy and confusing. I'm not sure if a gaming table with strangers is the ideal scenario for explaining sexual orientation to kids. Parents who care about such things should probably take the initiative to find teachable moments at home. Gay marriage is in the news. President Obama and Vladimir Putin talk about homosexuality. Unless somebody is raising a family of ostriches these issues shouldn't be secret and mysterious anymore.
*shrug* idk, I feel like homosexuality is being made into such a big deal by people so against it. Still, if the parent isn't taking the initiative to teach their kids about sex early, then eventually they are going to learn about it from someone else. Whether it's a DM, TV, or their friend... which is all the more encouragement to teach your kids.
Kids can still enjoy their childhood and be taught life lessons at the same time, if that's something parents are worried about.
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If a scenario without explicit depictions of sex features two women who are married to each other I guess that might aggravate some people, but real life sometimes features two women who are married to each other. They might even show up as players at your PFS table. If they start having sex right there at the table you've probably got a valid complaint (or a fulfilled fantasy...I guess it depends who you are...)
@Odraude - Seriously, a young kid might ask about that...
Kid: "Why does Thaddeus have a husband not a wife?"
DM: "That's because Thaddeus is gay."
Kid: "What's gay?"
DM: "It is when a man loves another man instead of a woman."
Kid: "You mean like Daddy loves Grandpa?"
DM: "Probably not, anyhow, his husband is just like a wife, except he's a man."I'm not saying those are good explanations of what "gay" means. In fact, they're probably kind of clumsy and confusing. I'm not sure if a gaming table with strangers is the ideal scenario for explaining sexual orientation to kids. Parents who care about such things should probably take the initiative to find teachable moments at home. Gay marriage is in the news. President Obama and Vladimir Putin talk about homosexuality. Unless somebody is raising a family of ostriches these issues shouldn't be secret and mysterious anymore.
People give kids far too little credit. They're very adept at just accepting ideas. I mean hell, most of the way we teach them is through talking animals, and yet eventually they figure out animals don't talk. Get to them early, say "Oh, like how Daddy loves Mommy", and the discussion is over and they now understand it without any confusion.
And I doubt Pathfinder is how you're introducing your kids to ANYTHING...aside from Pathfinder. Most kids by the age of 8 have heard of the concept of LGBT (most likely homosexuality), and again, it's not a hard concept to understand at its basics. And I'd say 8 years old is probably too young to play PF unless the kid was pretty good with numbers. Even then, I again doubt you're starting them off with strangers, since most people are more protective of their children and aware of the risk they would take while doing that.
And there's tons of stuff in the news, like war. I doubt that'd be reason enough to keep that out of games.
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If a scenario without explicit depictions of sex features two women who are married to each other I guess that might aggravate some people, but real life sometimes features two women who are married to each other. They might even show up as players at your PFS table. If they start having sex right there at the table you've probably got a valid complaint (or a fulfilled fantasy...I guess it depends who you are...)
@Odraude - Seriously, a young kid might ask about that...
Kid: "Why does Thaddeus have a husband not a wife?"
DM: "That's because Thaddeus is gay."
Kid: "What's gay?"
DM: "It is when a man loves another man instead of a woman."
Kid: "You mean like Daddy loves Grandpa?"
DM: "Probably not, anyhow, his husband is just like a wife, except he's a man."I'm not saying those are good explanations of what "gay" means. In fact, they're probably kind of clumsy and confusing. I'm not sure if a gaming table with strangers is the ideal scenario for explaining sexual orientation to kids. Parents who care about such things should probably take the initiative to find teachable moments at home. Gay marriage is in the news. President Obama and Vladimir Putin talk about homosexuality. Unless somebody is raising a family of ostriches these issues shouldn't be secret and mysterious anymore.
People give kids far too little credit. They're very adept at just accepting ideas. I mean hell, most of the way we teach them is through talking animals, and yet eventually they figure out animals don't talk. Get to them early, say "Oh, like how Daddy loves Mommy", and the discussion is over and they now understand it without any confusion.
And I doubt Pathfinder is how you're introducing your kids to ANYTHING...aside from Pathfinder. Most kids by the age of 8 have heard of the concept of LGBT (most likely homosexuality), and again, it's not a hard concept to understand at its basics. And I'd say 8 years old is probably too young to play PF unless the kid was pretty good with...
Hey I was 7 when I played 2nd edition with Batman the Half-Orc Barbarian! :p
But yeah I agree. If we can trust kids with the knowledge that they are killing people and taking their stuff, then maybe learning that LGBT people exist isn't so farfeteched.
Then again, we are in America, where blood and guts are fine, but nipples are bad news bears.
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As a parent, I do not want any sexually explicit or promotion of sexual lifestyles in PFS. Is Pathfinder going to have a rating system as in movies? I should hope not if it is for an open gaming community. PF at home... fine, do whatever you want, but keep the PFS kid friendly. One person wrote that she wanted homosexuality to be there so the kids would experience that lifestyle. No, keep it out of the game.
I am frustrated at the hateful posts in these discussions. In other discussions, it's been to the point of sexual harassment. It is sexual harassment. I want no part of people forcing their sexuality on me or my kids - I don't care if you are straight, gay or both. Don't write about it, don't include it in the game.
As someone who's been on the receiving end of sexual harassment, I'd like to point out that people disagreeing with you about the ethics of portraying relationships you may not approve of is not at all the same as having someone force verbal and physical sexual attention on you and use coercion and threats to keep you silent about it.
They are not remotely similar.
And not only are you not helping your argument by attempting to appropriate that experience, you're also trivializing my experience and that of anyone else who's had to deal with it.
Stop it.
Same, to every single word.
Idk, I think the ideology that LGBT people exist and are, well, people with feelings and hopes and dreams that should be treated with respect like other human beings is a fine thing for children to learn. I know, silly concept here, treating people like people.
No one stated anything otherwise.
What do you think about this: Paizo should edit out every mention of homosexuality in PFS in states where gay marriage is outlawed and allow it in states where gay marriage is legal. Does that actually make sense to you?
Again, you are forcing a singular view upon everyone with what you are saying because it fits your view and your standard. Or making a standard for the children to get used to, creating a new standard and indoctrinating this ideology into these children. Not acceptable.
PFS should have no part with creating, promotion or propagating these issues in social settings with children. I just dumped over $700 into Pathfinder in the last 3 months and have a good sense to return everything because of this type of environment. What happened to treating others "with respect like other human beings... treating people like people" even when they have opposing views? I believe that some of the posts were deleted with derogatory remarks, which is a good change from that other discussion thread I previously mentioned.
I don't roleplay to bring reality into gaming, but to have fun playing without current political and social issues. Many of those on this discussion might say "good riddance," but that just demonstrates intolerance.
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To quote James Jacobs on the subject*:
It's called diversity, and it's a Good Thing. If diversity isn't something that you're interested in, Paizo products might not be for you.
And also:
If it's that big of a deal to you, you should vote with your wallet.
*Drawn from the previous thread on the subject
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As a parent, I do not want any sexually explicit or promotion of sexual lifestyles in PFS. Is Pathfinder going to have a rating system as in movies? I should hope not if it is for an open gaming community. PF at home... fine, do whatever you want, but keep the PFS kid friendly. One person wrote that she wanted homosexuality to be there so the kids would experience that lifestyle. No, keep it out of the game.
I am frustrated at the hateful posts in these discussions. In other discussions, it's been to the point of sexual harassment. It is sexual harassment. I want no part of people forcing their sexuality on me or my kids - I don't care if you are straight, gay or both. Don't write about it, don't include it in the game.
As someone who's been on the receiving end of sexual harassment, I'd like to point out that people disagreeing with you about the ethics of portraying relationships you may not approve of is not at all the same as having someone force verbal and physical sexual attention on you and use coercion and threats to keep you silent about it.
They are not remotely similar.
And not only are you not helping your argument by attempting to appropriate that experience, you're also trivializing my experience and that of anyone else who's had to deal with it.
Stop it.
What you wrote was very hateful and insensitive. I sent you a detailed message. You need to speak with your supervisor and apologize publicly.
@N. Jolly - You're the one who said, "Without representation, most children will grow up thinking there's only one sexuality, and that others are 'wrong', which is a huge problem for LGBT people." Maybe you weren't talking about Pathfinder specifically, but that's how I understood it in the context of this conversation. Anyhow, I too kind of suspect kids will "figure it out" at some point. Some hapless DM stuttering through a clumsy explanation of homosexuality to a kid with a parent who might be vehemently against it might not be the best situation for anybody though.
@Wolfgang Amadeus - I'd expect PFS games and many other Pathfinder games to have depictions of acts which would be illegal in all states along with acts which are simply impossible. For instance, there's an Assassin prestige class. I'm pretty sure that assassinating people is illegal in the entire US (at least the lower 48)
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Idk, I think the ideology that LGBT people exist and are, well, people with feelings and hopes and dreams that should be treated with respect like other human beings is a fine thing for children to learn. I know, silly concept here, treating people like people.No one stated anything otherwise.
What do you think about this: Paizo should edit out every mention of homosexuality in PFS in states where gay marriage is outlawed and allow it in states where gay marriage is legal. Does that actually make sense to you?
Again, you are forcing a singular view upon everyone with what you are saying because it fits your view and your standard. Or making a standard for the children to get used to, creating a new standard and indoctrinating this ideology into these children. Not acceptable.
PFS should have no part with creating, promotion or propagating these issues in social settings with children. I just dumped over $700 into Pathfinder in the last 3 months and have a good sense to return everything because of this type of environment. What happened to treating others "with respect like other human beings... treating people like people" even when they have opposing views? I believe that some of the posts were deleted with derogatory remarks, which is a good change from that other discussion thread I previously mentioned.
I don't roleplay to bring reality into gaming, but to have fun playing without current political and social issues. Many of those on this discussion might say "good riddance," but that just demonstrates intolerance.
Well since you asked what I thought... I'm going to be honest. And probably mean. May Heaven help you ;)
I think that is one of the single most idiotic ideas I've ever read and does nothing to alleviate anything. Not only will it probably cost Paizo more money, but now they'd have to coordinate with different versions. And what if a state decides to legalize it? Suddenly, they have to ship a fresh batch. Paizo shouldn't be responsible for parents that are too lazy squeemish to teach their kids about people different from them. It's like the people that complain about interracial couples in advertisements.
And there is no forcing of ideology. PFS is not saying "BE GAY! ACCEPT THE GAY!" in big bold letters. It's just showing the ideology that LGBT are people and exist. Nothing more, nothing less. They are in the world as adventurers and changing their sexuality would change nothing about the adventure. If the ideology that people should be treated with respect and dignity really offends you, then you don't deserve my respect. To me, you're no better than people against minorities in Pathfinder (yes, they exist, I had a GM that was like that). When in a debate, I will always show some form of decorum and civility to the other person. However, respect is EARNED, by what you say and how you treat others. And if someone has a belief that denigrates another demographic, then why should I respect your belief? It's actually supremely funny that you are here demanding respect when you are against Paizo showing respect to people of all types. You scream intolerance when you want Paizo to be intolerant. Imagine replacing everything in your statement with "black people" and you can kind of get a glimpse on why you are the one being the intolerant, disrespectful one. Remember, you can be polite and still be disrespectful. Which is what you are doing right now.
And "Let's not get political" is just a buzzword phrase that really means "Don't include things I don't believe in." Everything can be political if you make it. With that excuse, should we remove black people and other minorities? Racism is still a political issue across the world, so that may start enforcing the ideology that racism is bad. May as well remove gender, since that would start enforcing that sexism is bad. Got social classes in your game? That's the possibility of class warfare right there. See what I mean? ANYTHING and EVERYTHING can be made political if you are the one that makes it such. And everything listed above are all hot button topics to this day.
If you want something not to be political, just simply note that it exists and do not dwell on that fact. Don't dwell that your NPC is gay, or the only black NPC in Vikingland, or a woman fighting an oppressive patriarchy. Just roleplay. Who knows, you might have fun ;)
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What you wrote was very hateful and insensitive. I sent you a detailed message. You need to speak with your supervisor and apologize publicly.As a parent, I do not want any sexually explicit or promotion of sexual lifestyles in PFS. Is Pathfinder going to have a rating system as in movies? I should hope not if it is for an open gaming community. PF at home... fine, do whatever you want, but keep the PFS kid friendly. One person wrote that she wanted homosexuality to be there so the kids would experience that lifestyle. No, keep it out of the game.
I am frustrated at the hateful posts in these discussions. In other discussions, it's been to the point of sexual harassment. It is sexual harassment. I want no part of people forcing their sexuality on me or my kids - I don't care if you are straight, gay or both. Don't write about it, don't include it in the game.
As someone who's been on the receiving end of sexual harassment, I'd like to point out that people disagreeing with you about the ethics of portraying relationships you may not approve of is not at all the same as having someone force verbal and physical sexual attention on you and use coercion and threats to keep you silent about it.
They are not remotely similar.
And not only are you not helping your argument by attempting to appropriate that experience, you're also trivializing my experience and that of anyone else who's had to deal with it.
Stop it.
What YOU wrote was hateful and insensitive by trivializing people that have actually been sexually harassed. You might be polite, but you are still being disrespectful and dismissive. It's still possible to be rude while acting polite. I think you should be the one to apologize for denigrating sexual harassment victims.
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@N. Jolly - You're the one who said, "Without representation, most children will grow up thinking there's only one sexuality, and that others are 'wrong', which is a huge problem for LGBT people." Maybe you weren't talking about Pathfinder specifically, but that's how I understood it in the context of this conversation. Anyhow, I too kind of suspect kids will "figure it out" at some point. Some hapless DM stuttering through a clumsy explanation of homosexuality to a kid with a parent who might be vehemently against it might not be the best situation for anybody though.
I did state that a gaming table isn't the best place to learn about it, but it's a pretty good place to enforce it. Most people play with people they like or can at least tolerate, so it's not as much of an issue. For PFS, it's not great, but again, Pathfinder includes LGBT characters so it's not really a great situation for an intolerant person to play knowing that.
Expecting kids to 'figure it out' with a lot of things is generally a bad thing, seeing as I was left to 'figure it out' on a lot of issues like that, and I wish I'd been given more education on a lot of topics like that. It's only in the past few years I've really been educated on it, and it makes me sad at how long I was ignorant of these issues.
But yeah, I'll agree to the "Blood good, any mention of non hetero normative sexuality bad" being a huge problem in America.
@N. Jolly - You're the one who said, "Without representation, most children will grow up thinking there's only one sexuality, and that others are 'wrong', which is a huge problem for LGBT people." Maybe you weren't talking about Pathfinder specifically, but that's how I understood it in the context of this conversation. Anyhow, I too kind of suspect kids will "figure it out" at some point. Some hapless DM stuttering through a clumsy explanation of homosexuality to a kid with a parent who might be vehemently against it might not be the best situation for anybody though.
@Wolfgang Amadeus - I'd expect PFS games and many other Pathfinder games to have depictions of acts which would be illegal in all states along with acts which are simply impossible. For instance, there's an Assassin prestige class. I'm pretty sure that assassinating people is illegal in the entire US (at least the lower 48)
By definition, PFS would have to be subject to only social encounters, since murder is against the law in the USA.
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Idk, I think the ideology that LGBT people exist and are, well, people with feelings and hopes and dreams that should be treated with respect like other human beings is a fine thing for children to learn. I know, silly concept here, treating people like people.No one stated anything otherwise.
What do you think about this: Paizo should edit out every mention of homosexuality in PFS in states where gay marriage is outlawed and allow it in states where gay marriage is legal. Does that actually make sense to you?
What you are proposing is not only unreasonable to request of writers, it actively makes things worse for people who need that representation even more.
Again, you are forcing a singular view upon everyone with what you are saying because it fits your view and your standard. Or making a standard for the children to get used to, creating a new standard and indoctrinating this ideology into these children. Not acceptable.
Treating people like people is NOT indoctrination. Demanding that certain kinds of people be disappeared is a slap in the face to those that have long been ignored or distorted by media for far too long.
I want no part in pushing a marginalized group of people into an even deeper hole of depression and feeling like outsiders.
What do you think about this: Paizo should edit out every mention of homosexuality in PFS in states where gay marriage is outlawed and allow it in states where gay marriage is legal. Does that actually make sense to you?
What you are proposing is not only unreasonable to request of writers, it actively makes things worse for people who need that representation even more.
This was rhetorical.
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What do you think about this: Paizo should edit out every mention of homosexuality in PFS in states where gay marriage is outlawed and allow it in states where gay marriage is legal. Does that actually make sense to you?
Of course it doesn't. Homosexual people (and other IQTBGL) exist whether they're discriminated against or not. Paizo partaking in the oppressive system just because in that state it's more institutionalized than in other states doesn't make sense. Like, at all.
Again, you are forcing a singular view upon everyone with what you are saying because it fits your view and your standard.
Yes. Just like all those horrible psy-en-tists are claiming the earth is round. It's so horrible to enforce just a single view.
Or making a standard for the children to get used to, creating a new standard and indoctrinating this ideology into these children. Not acceptable.
Facts are not ideology. IQTBLG people exist. That is a fact. Just like humans usually having two arms is a fact. Are you claiming that including two-armed humans in Pathfinder is also some kind of ideological indoctrination?
But you know what? Pathfinder does include ideology, in the alignment rules. These quite clearly states that some things are good and some things are evil.
For example, Paizo in their product reinforces the ideological stance that "protecting innocent life" is Good. So if you want to keep your children away from such horrible ideological indoctrination, you're probably right not to play Pathfinder or buy Paizo's books.
PFS should have no part with creating, promotion or propagating these issues in social settings with children.
Oh, you're right. PFS should remove the whole alignment system, it's just a big ideological propaganda machine.
What happened to treating others "with respect like other human beings... treating people like people" even when they have opposing views?
Yes, because bigots have such a history of being structurally oppressed and dehumanized for their bigotry.
You do realize the difference between "I'm going to harass someone because they love someone of the same gender" and "I'm going to criticize that person because they are acting like bigoted douches", right?
There is a world of difference between disrespecting someone's identity and disrespecting someone's hurtful, bigoted, outspoken standpoints.
I don't roleplay to bring reality into gaming, but to have fun playing without current political and social issues.
If you don't want to roleplay to "bring reality into gaming", why would heterosexuality even be the dominant orientation?
I don't want to bring reality into gaming either, in the sense that I don't want to roleplay in a world that is primarily inhabited by homophobic, transphobic bigots and where IQTBGL people are systematically and constantly oppressed. I want to have fun playing without current social issues like homophobia and transphobia. Therefore I want my games - and PFS - to be an open and inclusive place where people keep their bigotry to themselves.
You know how to keep "current political and social issues" out of the game? IQTBLG people exist regardless of the political climate (eg, animals). Homophobes don't (eg, animals). You know which one should go to keep politics out of the game? Yeah, that's right, the homophobia.
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This was rhetorical.
What do you think about this: Paizo should edit out every mention of homosexuality in PFS in states where gay marriage is outlawed and allow it in states where gay marriage is legal. Does that actually make sense to you?What you are proposing is not only unreasonable to request of writers, it actively makes things worse for people who need that representation even more.
And there's the backpedalling....
But seriously, if it really was rhetorical, you should realize that rhetorical questions and sarcasm don't translate over the internet. At least not with out some kind of emoticon to designate it as such. Like a winky face ;)
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Wolfgang, I'm not straight. Does that mean that merely existing makes me "political"? That seems to be what you are implying here. And, also, are you saying that I'm not safe for children just because I like men?
Stop being a turkey.