Homosexuality in Pathfinder


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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+1 vote for ignore it. Let individual GMs and groups decide.


CriticalQuit wrote:

Well, there really isn't anything specifically in the rules regarding sexual orientation, but I don't think the rules system is what the OP was talking about.

I think it's more the presence of more varied sexual orientations in Paizo-official story material about Golarion, particularly in published adventure paths and other stories. As I recall, unless otherwise stated in their backstory, all of the Iconics are bisexual. And the Faiths of Purity description of Shelyn states that homosexual couples are treated no differently from heterosexual couples in the eyes of the goddess of love.

So yeah, I think OP was just speaking of the stance Paizo seems to take in their official stories, which in my opinion is a progressive one.

I'm not actually sure what the OP wanted. This was specifically as an alternate to the existing "Homosexuality in Golarion" thread, so discussion of Golarion doesn't seem to be the point.

Rereading the OP, This appears to be for "the frequently occurring debate as to what place LGBT themes should or should not have in Pathfinder publications and gaming culture at large."

So. We hold the flame wars here. And talk about specific details of Golarion there.
Works for me. :)


I encourage role play in my games. In my efforts to encourage role play I flesh out a huge stable of NPCs with rich character details. I want the people of the world my PCs inhabit to reflect an approximation of the culture and diversity of the setting. Currently that includes a Bad ass lesbian Duergar and two gay human aristocrats. Rather than a gimmick though I hope I have been successful in representing plausible and memorable characters. Traits such as gender, religion and sexuality all contribute in some way to that effort and so they are included. No big deal.


While shopping for t-shirts online yesterday I noticed that the list of items Amazon was recommending for me based on recent purchases by customers similar to me was about 1/3 Pathfinder books and about 1/3 gay pride gear. This makes me curious if there’s a deep intersection between the Pathfinder and LGBT communities.


I guess this could be a good place to discuss custom settings. For my upcoming game im considering removing all references to sex or gender when it comes to gnomes, and making elves usually be agender, with having a gender being the exception. Theyd still have the same reproductivesystem as humans though. Thoughts?


To clarify: im a bit tired of all fantasy games with all fantasy races feeling the need for gender binarity and sex binarity to be the norm, even when it comes to races with completely different heritage than humans (gnomes coming from fey for example).

Of course this doesnt mean humans and other races will all be heterocis; im not out to relegate lgbtq to being some essentialist effect of race or makin lgbtq people "subhuman"

Liberty's Edge

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Devilkiller wrote:
While shopping for t-shirts online yesterday I noticed that the list of items Amazon was recommending for me based on recent purchases by customers similar to me was about 1/3 Pathfinder books and about 1/3 gay pride gear. This makes me curious if there’s a deep intersection between the Pathfinder and LGBT communities.

It's more likely that 1/3 of your purchases have been Pathfinder books and 1/3 of your purchases have been gay pride gear. Amazon's recommendations for me are 1/4 Pathfinder books, 1/4 recording equipment, and 1/2 Metallica/Avenged Sevenfold/Halo soundtrack albums -- because that's what matches my shopping history and "customers like me".


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I still don't see why folks consider LGBT characters as examples of "gender politics muddying the fantasy escapism", while the husband and wife that run the inn are not "gender politics muddying the fantasy escapism".

And you can't deny that at least one man at each of our tables has tried to put the moves on a princess/bartender/insertrandomwomanhere, so there's some "gender politics muddying the fantasy escapism" right there.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm with Tirisfal. If the husband and wife running the inn aren't an issue, the husband, husband and all of his kids running the shop with the sauna up on the mountain aren't a problem either.

In my games, I have heterosexual characters roll a Dex, Con and Cha check and then laugh at them.

Homosexual characters roll a Dex, Con and Cha check, and then I laugh at them.

Key difference.


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Also for those derping about doing whatever you want in your own games and thinking that somehow solves everything associated with LGBTQ issues in Pathfinder gaming, you are forgetting about PFS

where, you know, complete strangers of all races, ethnicities, sexual orientation, gender identity, age, economic status, political affiliation, religious beliefs and so on come together to play a game they all share an interest in


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Tirisfal wrote:

I still don't see why folks consider LGBT characters as examples of "gender politics muddying the fantasy escapism", while the husband and wife that run the inn are not "gender politics muddying the fantasy escapism".

And you can't deny that at least one man at each of our tables has tried to put the moves on a princess/bartender/insertrandomwomanhere, so there's some "gender politics muddying the fantasy escapism" right there.

Apparently there are some tables where it's just the adventuring, tactical/strategic challenge and they rarely if ever get even as far as putting the moves on the barmaid or even identifying the husband and wife running the inn.

I've got to say they're rare and I've never played in a game like that, but they apparently exist. Short of that, yeah, you've got gender politics.

OTOH, if I was playing with someone who was going to freak out about LGBTQ stuff coming up in game, I'd probably strip them out.

On the gripping hand, such a person would likely have already freaked out at some of the people I play with, so I probably just wouldn't be playing with them.

Liberty's Edge

Tirisfal wrote:
I still don't see why folks consider LGBT characters as examples of "gender politics muddying the fantasy escapism", while the husband and wife that run the inn are not "gender politics muddying the fantasy escapism".

I think that's a fairly narrow-minded viewpoint. Gender politics are a very muddied, sensitive topic in real life so they will easily translate to a muddied, sensitive topic in a game. Expecting otherwise is probably a little insensitive of others' sensitivities.

And just for the fun of it: sensitivity, sensitivity, sensitivity. The word should now sound weird.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:


That's...unusual. Significantly so. I'm pretty sure completely celibate players are rarer than LGBT ones, and quite a bit rarer than ones who have some interest in sexuality, which doesn't devalue their lifestyle or playstyle...but does mean something they're not interested in is gonna inevitably come up, since many other people are interested in it.

Being sexually active is absolutely NOT a guarantee of being able to address sexuality.


Lamontius wrote:

Also for those derping about doing whatever you want in your own games and thinking that somehow solves everything associated with LGBTQ issues in Pathfinder gaming, you are forgetting about PFS

where, you know, complete strangers of all races, ethnicities, sexual orientation, gender identity, age, economic status, political affiliation, religious beliefs and so on come together to play a game they all share an interest in

not playing PFS, but this should be really easy shouldn't it? you mind your own character. you don't PvP. you adher to the PFS rules on what's okay behaviour and not.


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Sure, put 60 random people in a room and have them all get along and agree on societal issues without any problems, while playing a game that potentially will confront them with societal issues they do not like, agree with or want to participate in

Liberty's Edge

Lamontius wrote:
Sure, put 60 random people in a room and have them all get along and agree on societal issues without any problems, while playing a game that potentially will confront them with societal issues they do not like, agree with or want to participate in

Well said. I don't think it gets any simpler than this.

Alternatively, always follow the golden rule: Avoid politics when trying to have fun. And right now, gay issues are political issues.


Gaberlunzie wrote:
Lamontius wrote:

Also for those derping about doing whatever you want in your own games and thinking that somehow solves everything associated with LGBTQ issues in Pathfinder gaming, you are forgetting about PFS

where, you know, complete strangers of all races, ethnicities, sexual orientation, gender identity, age, economic status, political affiliation, religious beliefs and so on come together to play a game they all share an interest in

not playing PFS, but this should be really easy shouldn't it? you mind your own character. you don't PvP. you adher to the PFS rules on what's okay behaviour and not.

Of course it should be easy. But some people freak out at the mention of LGBTQ people. They'll get offended if another player's character reveals he's gay. They'll panic if they learn their child might have been exposed to mention of the gay.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
That's...unusual. Significantly so. I'm pretty sure completely celibate players are rarer than LGBT ones, and quite a bit rarer than ones who have some interest in sexuality, which doesn't devalue their lifestyle or playstyle...but does mean something they're not interested in is gonna inevitably come up, since many other people are interested in it.
Being sexually active is absolutely NOT a guarantee of being able to address sexuality.

It isn't? I'd call having sex 'addressing sexuality in your life'. It may not be addressing it well, but it's addressing it.

Maybe we're defining our terms differently?

Liberty's Edge

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Crank wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:
I still don't see why folks consider LGBT characters as examples of "gender politics muddying the fantasy escapism", while the husband and wife that run the inn are not "gender politics muddying the fantasy escapism".

I think that's a fairly narrow-minded viewpoint. Gender politics are a very muddied, sensitive topic in real life so they will easily translate to a muddied, sensitive topic in a game. Expecting otherwise is probably a little insensitive of others' sensitivities.

And just for the fun of it: sensitivity, sensitivity, sensitivity. The word should now sound weird.

Racial issues are also very muddied and sensitive in real life. Does that mean non-white characters shouldn't be shown or portrayed?

Crank wrote:
Lamontius wrote:
Sure, put 60 random people in a room and have them all get along and agree on societal issues without any problems, while playing a game that potentially will confront them with societal issues they do not like, agree with or want to participate in

Well said. I don't think it gets any simpler than this.

Alternatively, always follow the golden rule: Avoid politics when trying to have fun. And right now, gay issues are political issues.

Again, so are race issues. Should all characters portrayed therefore be white?


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Crank wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:
I still don't see why folks consider LGBT characters as examples of "gender politics muddying the fantasy escapism", while the husband and wife that run the inn are not "gender politics muddying the fantasy escapism".

I think that's a fairly narrow-minded viewpoint. Gender politics are a very muddied, sensitive topic in real life so they will easily translate to a muddied, sensitive topic in a game. Expecting otherwise is probably a little insensitive of others' sensitivities.

And just for the fun of it: sensitivity, sensitivity, sensitivity. The word should now sound weird.

You're right; "gender politics" is a complicated issue. But you do know that you can include LGBT characters without the baggage of "politics", right? You know, the same way that you can remove institutionalized sexism from the setting so that you can play a woman without having to deal with those "gender politics".

Because, you know, it's a fantasy setting, and some of us want to play in a world where we don't have to deal with the same crap we have to deal with in real life.

Again I ask:

Why is a gay couple considered "gender politics", but the straight couple is not?


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Waiting for the day when some clown comes by to "check if we have enough diversity (gender/sexuality/etc) represented" at our table. We hope he/she is ready for gales of laughter.


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LazarX wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:


That's...unusual. Significantly so. I'm pretty sure completely celibate players are rarer than LGBT ones, and quite a bit rarer than ones who have some interest in sexuality, which doesn't devalue their lifestyle or playstyle...but does mean something they're not interested in is gonna inevitably come up, since many other people are interested in it.

Being sexually active is absolutely NOT a guarantee of being able to address sexuality.

I'll agree with that. OTOH, the vast majority of cases where sexuality comes up in game it's on the order of "These two have a relationship", not anything explicit, kinky or even complicated. More "relationship issues" than "Sexuality issues". Except that some happen to involve LGBTQ people, not straight ones.


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Crank wrote:
Lamontius wrote:
Sure, put 60 random people in a room and have them all get along and agree on societal issues without any problems, while playing a game that potentially will confront them with societal issues they do not like, agree with or want to participate in

Well said. I don't think it gets any simpler than this.

Alternatively, always follow the golden rule: Avoid politics when trying to have fun. And right now, gay issues are political issues.

no no no no no no

you do not deal with LGBTIQ awareness in pathfinder gaming by ignoring it, or excluding it from published material because you want to have fun and avoid 'political' issues

this is as terrible of a strategy as those who are saying "do whatever you want in your home games" and thinking it solves everything, like this is an issue of paladin alignments or fighters getting extra skill points or rogues just basically not being completely terrible as a class

play a PFS scenario like Midnight Mauler in random groups
see how a wide variety of players react to it

understand that this hobby we all share goes beyond one's own table

or stick your head in the sand

man I hate when I have to type some many dang words because of bad thread stuff


Tirisfal wrote:
Crank wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:
I still don't see why folks consider LGBT characters as examples of "gender politics muddying the fantasy escapism", while the husband and wife that run the inn are not "gender politics muddying the fantasy escapism".

I think that's a fairly narrow-minded viewpoint. Gender politics are a very muddied, sensitive topic in real life so they will easily translate to a muddied, sensitive topic in a game. Expecting otherwise is probably a little insensitive of others' sensitivities.

And just for the fun of it: sensitivity, sensitivity, sensitivity. The word should now sound weird.

You're right; "gender politics" is a complicated issue. But you do know that you can include LGBT characters without the baggage of "politics", right? You know, the same way that you can remove institutionalized sexism from the setting so that you can play a woman without having to deal with those "gender politics".

Because, you know, it's a fantasy setting, and some of us want to play in a world where we don't have to deal with the same crap we have to deal with in real life.

Again I ask:

Why is a gay couple considered "gender politics", but the straight couple is not?

To play devil's advocate: If some of your players are prejudiced, you can't include LGBTQ characters without the baggage of "politics". Of course, if some of your players are sexist, you can't remove the institutional sexism from your setting without the baggage of "politics". Or if some of your players are racist...

Of course, the common problem here is those players.

Liberty's Edge

Tirisfal wrote:
Because, you know, it's a fantasy setting, and some of us want to play in a world where we don't have to deal with the same crap we have to deal with in real life.

I think you're failing to consider that exact statement from another viewpoint. Think about that for a moment.

Tirisfal wrote:
Why is a gay couple considered "gender politics", but the straight couple is not?

Because gay issues are ballot issues in multiple states/countries/territories and a hot-button topic.


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Brox RedGloves wrote:
Waiting for the day when some clown comes by to "check if we have enough diversity (gender/sexuality/etc) represented" at our table. We hope he/she is ready for gales of laughter.

You've found us out. Now that we're able to have conversations about LGBT characters in our games out in the open, we're going to start enforcing everyone else's compliance. The world is a slippery slope indeed!

We hope to roll out the table policing within the week, so be prepared to hear Scissors Sisters blaring down your street followed by a fabulous knock at your door within 3-5 business days.

Liberty's Edge

Lamontius wrote:

no no no no no no

you do not deal with LGBTQ awareness in pathfinder gaming by ignoring it, or excluding it from published material because you want to have fun and avoid 'political' issues

this is as terrible of a strategy as those who are saying "do whatever you want in your home games" and thinking it solves everything, like this is an issue of paladin alignments or fighters getting extra skill points or rogues just basically not being completely terrible as a class

play a PFS scenario like Midnight Mauler in random groups
see how a wide variety of players react to it

understand that this hobby we all share goes beyond one's own table

or stick your head in the sand

man I hate when I have to type some many dang words because of bad thread stuff

I'd really rather not have my friends and players get riled up because I invited them over for a game and it denigrated into a political discussion/argument. It's rarely fun.

The Exchange

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I can't become The Gay! I'd have to delete my collection of 'art'* and start a new one from scratch!

* Ahem.


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Crank wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:
Because, you know, it's a fantasy setting, and some of us want to play in a world where we don't have to deal with the same crap we have to deal with in real life.
I think you're failing to consider that exact statement from another viewpoint. Think about that for a moment.

I'm totally considering that it's a fantasy setting and bigots don't want to think about LGBT folks existing; I just don't care because they get the real world all to themselves.

The Exchange

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They don't get it all to themselves. That's why they're so riled up.


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Crank wrote:
Lamontius wrote:

no no no no no no

you do not deal with LGBTQ awareness in pathfinder gaming by ignoring it, or excluding it from published material because you want to have fun and avoid 'political' issues

this is as terrible of a strategy as those who are saying "do whatever you want in your home games" and thinking it solves everything, like this is an issue of paladin alignments or fighters getting extra skill points or rogues just basically not being completely terrible as a class

play a PFS scenario like Midnight Mauler in random groups
see how a wide variety of players react to it

understand that this hobby we all share goes beyond one's own table

or stick your head in the sand

man I hate when I have to type some many dang words because of bad thread stuff

I'd really rather not have my friends and players get riled up because I invited them over for a game and it denigrated into a political discussion/argument. It's rarely fun.

PFS

my posts have been about PFS
the whole focus of my posts have been BEYOND 'inviting your friends over for a game'


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Crank wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:
Why is a gay couple considered "gender politics", but the straight couple is not?
Because gay issues are ballot issues in multiple states/countries/territories and a hot-button topic.

You forget not too long ago, civil rights for black folks were "ballot issues in multiple states/countries/territories and a hot-button topic"...so should we just never include non-white folks in our games?


Tirisfal wrote:
Crank wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:
Why is a gay couple considered "gender politics", but the straight couple is not?
Because gay issues are ballot issues in multiple states/countries/territories and a hot-button topic.
You forget not too long ago, civil rights for black folks were "ballot issues in multiple states/countries/territories and a hot-button topic"...so should we just never include non-white folks in our games?

Not if you're playing with racists.


Lamontius wrote:

Also for those derping about doing whatever you want in your own games and thinking that somehow solves everything associated with LGBTQ issues in Pathfinder gaming, you are forgetting about PFS

From what I see/hear, PFS has been really inclusive of diversity. I think that's great.

But do we need non-setting material that addresses sexual issues? I don't want to be looking through a rule book and see different mechanics for straight people versus gay people, different classes for different persuasions, etc.

That kind of stuff should be left up to various groups to homebrew, or at the most, a non-core book similar to 3.5's BoEF.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed a few posts/replies that were off topic. Some of these posts probably also belong in other threads, so let's keep this on topic and personal jabs out of the thread, please.


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Gorbacz wrote:
So let's start with some robust, balanced rules for sex that ensure Fighters, Rogues and Monks have equal opportunities at playing bees and flowers as full casters do.

It would be unrealistic, everyone knows that full casters have better, safer, and more varied sex life thanks to spells such as summon succubus, summon succubus twins, big B's helpful hand, mord's magnificent dance hall, remove nasty itch, and last but not least mord's lubrication.


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Lamontius wrote:
Crank wrote:
Lamontius wrote:
Sure, put 60 random people in a room and have them all get along and agree on societal issues without any problems, while playing a game that potentially will confront them with societal issues they do not like, agree with or want to participate in

Well said. I don't think it gets any simpler than this.

Alternatively, always follow the golden rule: Avoid politics when trying to have fun. And right now, gay issues are political issues.

no no no no no no

you do not deal with LGBTIQ awareness in pathfinder gaming by ignoring it, or excluding it from published material because you want to have fun and avoid 'political' issues

Some folks just like to get together and roll some dice among friends. To get more to the point, our group was playing an AP when we were requested by a guy to deliver a letter to another guy in town. We took the letter to the recipient, gave him the letter, received our pay and went on our way. Did we know it was a love letter? No, because we didn't open the envelope and read other people's mail. Our DM made particular mention that we were helping a gay couple. Our reply: "So? Did we get paid? If so that's all that matters."

I know this must seem outrageous that some people just don't want to pry into other people's business the same way you want to, but you'll just have to learn to deal with it. Maybe seek therapy or something if it's too bothersome.

Lamontius wrote:


this is as terrible of a strategy as those who are saying "do whatever you want in your home games" and thinking it solves everything, like this is an issue of paladin alignments or fighters getting extra skill points or rogues just basically not being completely terrible as a class

play a PFS scenario like Midnight Mauler in random groups
see how a wide variety of players react to it

I'm sorry...but it really isn't a terrible strategy. It's just one that you don't like.

Lamontius wrote:


understand that this hobby we all share goes beyond one's own table

WHAT???? Seriously Lamontius, you're straying dangerously close to Saturday Morning cartoon villany here...Should we start calling you Magneto or something?

I had a long dissertation regarding the last of that post, but seriously, stop telling people they are having BADRONGFUN simply because they don't play the same way you do.


how about you read my posts instead

from the first to the last

and figure out that I have been talking about organized public play, not home games


Tirisfal wrote:
Crank wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:
Because, you know, it's a fantasy setting, and some of us want to play in a world where we don't have to deal with the same crap we have to deal with in real life.
I think you're failing to consider that exact statement from another viewpoint. Think about that for a moment.
I'm totally considering that it's a fantasy setting and bigots don't want to think about LGBT folks existing; I just don't care because they get the real world all to themselves.

Oh how I wish I could [like] this post a thousand times over. This is like the best thing ever said on the topic.

You win the internet.


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Brox RedGloves wrote:
Lamontius wrote:
you do not deal with LGBTIQ awareness in pathfinder gaming by ignoring it, or excluding it from published material because you want to have fun and avoid 'political' issues

Some folks just like to get together and roll some dice among friends. To get more to the point, our group was playing an AP when we were requested by a guy to deliver a letter to another guy in town. We took the letter to the recipient, gave him the letter, received our pay and went on our way. Did we know it was a love letter? No, because we didn't open the envelope and read other people's mail. Our DM made particular mention that we were helping a gay couple. Our reply: "So? Did we get paid? If so that's all that matters."

I know this must seem outrageous that some people just don't want to pry into other people's business the same way you want to, but you'll just have to learn to deal with it. Maybe seek therapy or something if it's too bothersome.

Ummm. Great. What else do you think people, even Lamontius, are advocating? Gay Pride marches down the streets of Magnimar?

The basic argument went: Avoid politics in gaming. Gay issues are politics. There fore avoid having gays.
The response is essentially: Banning LGBTQ characters from the game isn't avoiding politics, it's picking a side.
Your response seems to be (and correct me if I'm wrong): We had a couple gay NPCs and nobody cared. We didn't make a fuss and why do we have to.

But that's not what the argument is. You're doing exactly what I'd like to see. Random gay NPCs not being a big deal. The earlier poster would make sure there were no gay NPCs to avoid "politics". Your approach isn't the strategy Lamontius is arguing against.

What do you think we want?

The only reason he brought up "goes beyond one's own table" was in the context of PFS (or even published APs/modules), where "do whatever you want in your home games" doesn't solve anything because it isn't your home game.


Drejk wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
So let's start with some robust, balanced rules for sex that ensure Fighters, Rogues and Monks have equal opportunities at playing bees and flowers as full casters do.
It would be unrealistic, everyone knows that full casters have better, safer, and more varied sex life thanks to spells such as summon succubus, summon succubus twins, big B's helpful hand, mord's magnificent dance hall, remove nasty itch, and last but not least mord's lubrication.

Not to mention how long one can last in a Timeless demiplane. Just don't forget your Ring of Sustenance.

The Exchange

I can't believe I was deliberately editing my posts to be at least somewhat tasteful. ;)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I know that I should automatically ascern this, but what does L.G.B.T. stand for? I keep seeing Legs, Goat, Billy, Thortan.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lamontius wrote:


this is as terrible of a strategy as those who are saying "do whatever you want in your home games" and thinking it solves everything.

That's the beauty of it... it does FOR YOUR HOME GROUP. Are you that worried about how other home groups run their games? In my day I knew a bunch of home DM's each and everyone of them ran their home games their own way. This was an accepted norm back then, and it should be today.


close, thaX

LGBTIQ: lesbian/gay/bisexual/transgender/intersexed/questioning

also yes, thejeff, thanks, that is pretty much it regarding a summation of what I have been talking about


LazarX wrote:
Lamontius wrote:


this is as terrible of a strategy as those who are saying "do whatever you want in your home games" and thinking it solves everything.

That's the beauty of it... it does FOR YOUR HOME GROUP. Are you that worried about how other home groups run their games? In my day I knew a bunch of home DM's each and everyone of them ran their home games their own way. This was an accepted norm back then, and it should be today.

...read all of my posts. Or thejeff's last one.

Grand Lodge

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
Lamontius wrote:


this is as terrible of a strategy as those who are saying "do whatever you want in your home games" and thinking it solves everything.

That's the beauty of it... it does FOR YOUR HOME GROUP. Are you that worried about how other home groups run their games? In my day I knew a bunch of home DM's each and everyone of them ran their home games their own way. This was an accepted norm back then, and it should be today.

"Run your home game the way you want" is no longer a valid argument because of PFS and reasons.

-Skeld


thaX wrote:
I know that I should automatically ascern this, but what does L.G.B.T. stand for? I keep seeing Legs, Goat, Billy, Thortan.

Large Gut, Bad Tattoo

Light Grunt Battle Toads
Little Girl Ball Thrower
Little Golden Bird Trap
Likes Green Berry Tarts
Leave Gary By Town
Lucky Gerble Belly Tie
Leave Gun By Trailer
Little Girl/Boy Terminator
Lost GreenBay Trousers

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