I am starting book 3 and I am reviewing the mythic trial schedule.
There are 5 trials scheduled for this book. 2 trials will get them to 4th tier and the other 3 for 5th tier by books end.
There are 4 parts to this book and this is the trial breakdown:
Trial 1: Defeat the woundwyrm.
Trial 2: Rescue and ally with Arueshalae.
Trial 3: Complete personal mystery.
Trial 4: Shut down the Ivory Sanctum.
Trial 5: Defeat Xanthir Vang.
Part 1: No Trials
Part 2: 1 Trial (The Woundwyrm’s Lair)
Part 3: 1 Trial (Arueshalae’s Redoubt)
Part 4: 2 or 3 Trials, two happen when you defeat Xanthir Vang. 1 trial for his defeat and the other for shutting down the Ivory Labyrinth. The third possible trial is if you do not use the personal mystery (campaign traits), then defeating Jerribeth counts.
I am not really using the personal mysteries yet, my players have created characters part way through this and are not feeling the connection yet. Anything pressed now will be a bit forced and I cannot play that off correctly. I am perfectly fine with using Jerribeth as a mythic trial, she did play a pivotal role in the fall of Drezen. Vang is also a perfect trial. But... I am having more difficulty with the "shut down the Ivory Sanctum" trial. That happened when you take out Vang. Two trials completed at the same time?
the AP says this:
The final two mythic trials the PCs can complete in “Demon’s Heresy” are closely linked. Defeating Xanthir Vang is one such trial. The second trial requires the PCs to disrupt the Templars of the Ivory Labyrinth—this can be accomplished if the PCs defeat Jerribeth and Xanthir Vang in addition to recovering as much intelligence as possible from the Ivory Sanctum, but other combinations of accomplishments can suffice as you see fit.
This feels forced. How did your players feel when you gave them two trials at once? Did you come up with something better?
I am starting book 3 and I am reviewing the mythic trial schedule.
There are 5 trials scheduled for this book. 2 trials will get them to 4th tier and the other 3 for 5th tier by books end.
There are 4 parts to this book and this is the trial breakdown:
Trial 1: Defeat the woundwyrm.
Trial 2: Rescue and ally with Arueshalae.
Trial 3: Complete personal mystery.
Trial 4: Shut down the Ivory Sanctum.
Trial 5: Defeat Xanthir Vang.Part 1: No Trials
Part 2: 1 Trial (The Woundwyrm’s Lair)
Part 3: 1 Trial (Arueshalae’s Redoubt)
Part 4: 2 or 3 Trials, two happen when you defeat Xanthir Vang. 1 trial for his defeat and the other for shutting down the Ivory Labyrinth. The third possible trial is if you do not use the personal mystery (campaign traits), then defeating Jerribeth counts.
I am not really using the personal mysteries yet, my players have created characters part way through this and are not feeling the connection yet. Anything pressed now will be a bit forced and I cannot play that off correctly. I am perfectly fine with using Jerribeth as a mythic trial, she did play a pivotal role in the fall of Drezen. Vang is also a perfect trial. But... I am having more difficulty with the "shut down the Ivory Sanctum" trial. That happened when you take out Vang. Two trials completed at the same time?
the AP says this:
The final two mythic trials the PCs can complete in “Demon’s Heresy” are closely linked. Defeating Xanthir Vang is one such trial. The second trial requires the PCs to disrupt the Templars of the Ivory Labyrinth—this can be accomplished if the PCs defeat Jerribeth and Xanthir Vang in addition to recovering as much intelligence as possible from the Ivory Sanctum, but other combinations of accomplishments can suffice as you see fit.This feels forced. How did your players feel when you gave them two trials at once? Did you come up with something better?
In my campaign, I kept the personal trials, then had Jerribeth be one trial and Vang be another. If you don't use the personal trials, I kind-of agree that the final trial essentially being "Also for beating Vang" is annoying, and will fell tacked-on. It might be worth-while to pump up one of the encounters in Part 2 and turn that into a group-wide trial.
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For a less tacked on feel, I had my players have to come up with a way to keep the Sanctum from ever being used again. This led to a couple of adamantine weapons and a few hours worth of work to reduce it to rubble.
I would have accepted just destroying the summoning circles and sanctifying it, but my players don't trust me for some reason... :P
My players were not able to kill Jerribeth so they failed that trial. And I had already informed them that I was slowing down mythic tiers. If you don't tell them what counts as a mythic trial then they won't know either so it won't seem forced.
They have no idea how or what constitutes a mythic trial. To be honest, I am a little unclear myself.
I had thought mythic trials were something of note. The pfsrd says:
It usually represents the culmination of part of the heroes' story, marking it as an important point in their legend...
I do not think I am running them correctly. I can see Jerribeth being a pretty grand trial since she was instrumental in the fall of Drezen, but Vang? Yes, he is a tough one, but no one really knows about him.
I cannot even fathom why the Woundworm is a trial, except again, he is a powerful encounter.
I suppose I am saying I am a little disappointed in how mythic trials are portrayed.
Do you guys run the mythic encounters differently? Do you build a bunch of hype around them to make the players tremble, so when they do face the creature, it feels different?
I wonder how to adjust my play style to get this to feel greater than just another tough encounter.
They are what you want them to be. Its vague but true. Look at some of the mythic 'trials' later, one is watching two demon lords fight.
Since you're not using the traits (right?) some of these won't feel like trials as they won't complete your player's backgrounds. Do your players have enough character history that you can modify them?
Also, your PCs should know about Vang through these chapters. They may have found his worms in book 1. Vahne's journal mentions him too, as he was scared of him. And I think there are clues in the Fane as well.
I agree that the smaller quests don't feel mythic, but I wouldn't worry about doing it 'wrong'.
Very good points.
Let me delve a little bit into the players histories and see what I can run with. they have all very detailed backstories and I have wanted to use more of them.
I'm not using XP nor trails. I am just telling them when they level up or gain a tier.
When looking at the trials and how they were described in the mythic handbook vs this path, I was a little off put. But, the path is trying to cover 30 level ups in 6 books, so I feel we can let this slide.
They have no idea how or what constitutes a mythic trial. To be honest, I am a little unclear myself.
A little condescending, don't you think? "Paizo doesn't know how to use their own material?"
...each trial should include at least three of the elements noted in Elements of a Mythic Adventure. These elements define a trial as mythic and help the players understand that they're approaching a vital stage of their journey without directly telling them that a trial is forthcoming.
These elements are: Cunning Foes, Hard Consequences, Impressive Settings, Legendary Creatures, Otherworldly Influence, Powerful Enemies, and Supernatural Events.
I do not think I am running them correctly. I can see Jerribeth being a pretty grand trial since she was instrumental in the fall of Drezen, but Vang? Yes, he is a tough one, but no one really knows about him
Hard Consequences (he's a leader of the Blackfire Adepts, as described from his attack on the Riftwardens in The Worldwound Incursion, and one of the key figures in the demonic plans; granted, this is more important if one of the PCs has ties to the Riftwardens), Otherworldly Influence (he's a freaking worm that walks), and Powerful Enemies (as stated) all apply; Cunning Foes is also easily managed (the GM should probably make Vang more active "behind the scenes" as the PCs penetrate the Ivory Sanctum, learning their favored tactics, strengths, and weaknesses by feeding minions at them and forcing them to use resources before facing them himself; instead of just staying in his quarters).
I cannot even fathom why the Woundworm is a trial, except again, he is a powerful encounter.
Hard Consequences (the PCs can't stabilize the region around Drezen to ensure its growth and hunt down the Templars of the Ivory Labyrinth until dealing with the Woundwyrm), Legendary Creatures (the GM needs to work a bit more here to foreshadow the existence and legendary nature), Otherworldly Influence (warped by Abyssal energies), and Powerful Enemies (obvious) are all likely elements; possibly Cunning Foes as well, depending on how the GM runs things.
Do you guys run the mythic encounters differently? Do you build a bunch of hype around them to make the players tremble, so when they do face the creature, it feels different?
I wonder how to adjust my play style to get this to feel greater than just another tough encounter.
Yes, mythic play requires the GM to do more to "set the scene." This is stated in Running a Mythic Game:
For a game to feel mythic, it must evoke wonder and awe in the GM and the players. It represents a power shrouded in mystery and beyond the reach of mortals. When characters encounter the mythic, they should feel as though they've just received a glimpse into an unseen world, promising so much more if they're bold enough to explore its wonders and face its dangers. A mythic atmosphere involves legends coming to life, and the characters will have a part to play in shaping these myths. If they succeed, they'll be the subject of tales and epic ballads for generations to come.
Running a mythic game requires more than just allowing the players to have mythic power and face off against mythic foes. While that is certainly part of it, creating a mythic atmosphere is just as important. The world itself and the structure of the story need to change to make room for the mythic to exist alongside the normal. This change doesn't require you to reinvent the world, but mythic creatures and their environments should feel as if they are part of the world; they may be hidden, but they should still be tied to the mundane events and lands around them.
Contrasting the mythic with the normal world is crucial to conveying an atmosphere of legend and mystery. The extraordinary only seems that way if it's in sharp contrast with the mundane. For example, a flying castle with a 1,000-foot-tall tower at its heart, drifting through the air on a thunderous storm cloud, is certainly a dramatic sight, but only when compared to the pastoral farmland and grime-covered town in its shadow. Picture the same floating castle in a world of towering volcanoes, and 500-foot-tall fortresses and the castle just becomes another extreme element in a world of extremes. If your game is set on Golarion (or some other established world), inserting contrasting mythic elements is easy, since the world already has a specific feel. Making your game mythic simply requires you to push beyond the boundaries of the setting, identifying hidden places where mythic elements have always dwelled, waiting to be discovered.
Note that "normal" encounters (like in Part 1) are part of "contrasting the mythic with the normal world."
In regards to the OP's reason for starting this thread, I would say that many or all of the mythic trials based around the traits fail to meet the mythic requirements that you spelled out. Hence his confusion. I know that my players were confused when I told them that they had completed a trial. The ones in this book are lacking the feel of importance that the ones in books 1 and 2 had.
Breaking down the trials in Demon's Heresy:
Wintersun Hall: Hard Consequences*, Otherworldly Influence, and Powerful Enemies (especially if Marhevok focuses on a single PC, such as one with the Exposed to Awfulness trait that refuses to join him)
Family Crypt: Hard Consequences*, Otherworldly Influence, and Supernatural Events
The Fallen Fane: Hard Consequences*, Otherworldly Influence, and Supernatural Events
The Woundwyrm's Lair: described above
The Molten Scar: Hard Consequences*, Otherworldly Influence, and Powerful Enemies
Arueshalae's Redoubt: Cunning Foes (if the GM runs the Abyssal attackers and local scavengers in a reactive manner, as suggested, "This part of the adventure should not play out as a room-by-room exploration of the redoubt. Rather, the PCs should have several combats that can spill over into one another..."), Hard Consequences*, and Otherworldly Influence
Jerribeth: Cunning Foes (if run properly), Otherworldly Influence, and Powerful Enemies
Recovering an Heirloom: Hard Consequences*, Otherworldly Influence, and Supernatural Events (the River Styx)
Vang: described above
Disrupt the Templars: Cunning Foes, Hard Consequences, Otherworldly Influence, and Powerful Enemies
Note that Jerribeth and Disrupt the Templars are somewhat redundant trials because Paizo couldn't assume that a given group would be using the Campaign Traits when designing the adventure (otherwise, the PCs would be one trial short of 5th tier; unless the GM places a custom trial for that particular group, which is beyond the scope of a published adventure). If a group is using the Campaign traits, I'd just count Jerribeth as a separate trial from Vang, as she should qualify on her own merits.
*- mainly the PC with the associated Campaign Trait learning more about their heritage and having to deal with the associated events/information; remember that "inner growth" can be an important aspect of any character, not just mythic ones
Ha. This whole campaign has demons in it, so therefor all encounters are Otherworldly and Supernatural? I'm not really buying that one.
I would also say that in some of those (Molten Scar) that no extra information was given to the PC about their past. Wintersun also does not have a powerful foe, unless you severely rework the boss.
Have you run these encounters or have you read the AP?
Ha. This whole campaign has demons in it, so therefor all encounters are Otherworldly and Supernatural? I'm not really buying that one.
You're assuming that because one of the elements of a mythic adventure are a common theme for a campaign they "don't count" for a mythic trial.
That is not supported anywhere in Mythic Adventures. Sorry, false assumptions with no support don't help your argument.
As to the Supernatural Events:
Family Crypt - the spirits of the dead rising from their rest when disturbed is pretty iconic
The Fallen Fane - the restoration of the fane by the celestial host after being cleansed/cleared
Recovering an Heirloom - already mentioned, but to make it more detailed, the River Styx infuses the room; hardly an "ordinary" trap or magical effect
I would also say that in some of those (Molten Scar) that no extra information was given to the PC about their past.
It's the GM's job to hint at/fill in the background given to the GM in that section for the player(s).
Wintersun also does not have a powerful foe, unless you severely rework the boss.
I'll admit that Wintersun is a bit problematic if the party is a bunch of stereotypical "murderhobos" (or even "let the gods sort them out" types). Considering the theme of redemption in the AP and the fact that the rest of the clan is hardly a threat (not to mention not being evil), I think the assumption of the writer is that one of the PCs (probably the one with Exposed to Awfulness) is expected to face Marhevok (and Beverach) in single combat and not slaughter a bunch of neutral followers caught in a bind. I'm wondering if there was some material that got cut, although (again) the GM can hint at/fill in the background provided.
Have you run these encounters or have you read the AP?
Ad hominem attacks, now?
I've definitely read the AP enough to know that Marhevok's stat block has some errors (i.e., including Trap Sense bonus on saves for a savage barbarian) and is incomplete (doesn't show the Brawler rage power for the 1d6 unarmed attack damage and is missing another rage power entirely). Giving Marhevok the Fiend Totem rage power and adding it to his stat block, then replacing Strength Surge with Superstition and Improved Vital Strike with Extra Rage Power (Greater Fiend Totem), go a long way to making him more challenging; adding the Fiendish simple template to Beverach would also make sense and make the two of them a true CR 11 encounter (10 + 8; vs. APL on the high end of 10).
If you want a little more a boost for Marhevok, just have him be under the effect of a bull's strength spell made permanent via a wish from Jerribeth (her "blessing").
Nope...no attacks, sorry! Just curious about your experience with this and its hard not to ask bluntly.
My point being is that many of the fights (for the PCs and for every citizen near the Worldwound)is faced with powerful enemies, and otherworldly influences... and also cunning foes, impressive settings or the supernatural. So, why aren't more fights mythic? There are a lot of fights that meet those criteria.
I agree that the Fane was nicely done, rescuing Arushelae felt right too.
The barbarians, definitely not...and my PCs did talk to them to meet him at his throne room. Finding random loot in a secret room? Also not mythic.
Many things in this AP sounded bigger and better while reading them. Playing through them...not so much, not without a lot of revision. (like you wrote a whole paragraph about what was wrong with one NPC, a very common trait with NPCs in this AP)
Seannoss, you've captured my original reason for this thread perfectly. I feel the trials in the books do not always live up to the trials we should be giving to the players. Killing a worm that walks is hard, but not sure if it's a trial. Even closing a dimensional rift is impressive, but a mythic trial?
It seems they are trials only because this adventure is mythic and we need to have X amount of trials to continue. Having so many trials for trivial tasks makes less of the trials that do matter. Killing a demon lord is a mythic trial, killing a house if fiendish barbarians is apparently a trial too, but seems to be of similar stature.
Dragonchess, I'm not trying to say Paizo doesn't know their own material, although maybe I did say that. It was not my true meaning. They are trying to work within the confines of they system they made, which makes very impressive task - killing a demon lord- and trivial tasks - killing a fiendish barbarian - on par, which it's not.
It would be easier to just throw out the trial system as written and ad hoc the game as we mostly do with experience. One trial is one tier. All we have to do is choose which tiers to focus on, and I think the adventure already does that well.
I'm not using XP nor trails. I am just telling them when they level up or gain a tier.
When looking at the trials and how they were described in the mythic handbook vs this path, I was a little off put. But, the path is trying to cover 30 level ups in 6 books, so I feel we can let this slide.
Yes, this
I amjust giving out levels/tiers when appropriate so I have not looked closely at what counts as a mythic trial but most of the ones in the book looked ok to me (not all and as I say I have not needed to think deeply). Also only on book 2.
I do think I will provide the mythic tiers after the personal challenge in book 3 rather than giving them out at the same time to each pc. I think it will make one pf my players complain and he needs to learn that the world is not always fair.
What I consider
1) personal connections. The personal trials should resolve an issue in the characters background. If you are not using the campaign traits of your players have not invested in this bit of the background then they look less important and so I can see why they may seem less than satisfactory (the wintersun barbarians do strike me as the weakest, I am probably going to mess around with them a lot particularly as the character tied to this event is a dwarf. I think I will replace them with the lost and debased remains of his clan and see how he deals with them)
2)Power level. You have to take into account the existing levels and tiers of the characters, obviously a challenge like defeating a demon lord is wildly inappropriate for a 6th level character but may be a bit easy for a level 20/tier 9 character. So the fact that the strength of the opponents varies looks ok to me .