Greetings,
So, since I like challenging my preconceived notions every once in a while to maintain an open mind, I'm making a PFS character--a summoner, to be exact.
I'm not really interested in making a crazy-multiattacking-glass-cannon type, though. I'd settle for one big bite. However, it has been brought to my attention that Bestiary feats such as Improved Natural Attack are not allowed for eidolons, which makes me a sad panda. So I'm a little concerned about the viability of such a build.
So, we have bite (improved), the improved damage (bite) evolution, large (eventually), ability increase (Strength), and the ability to cast enlarge person on the eidolon for another boost. Anything else that can beef up this bite before I start shopping for defensive and utility measures?
Amulet of mighty fists is probably out since it's a single-attacking eidolon. I don't think I could justify the expense. I might get a bodywrap of mighty strikes, but even that is pretty expensive.
On a side note: How often do swimming and breathing underwater come up?
Hmmm...energy attacks and poisons. That should give a bit more bite to....your bite. The save DC for the poison is 10+1/2 their HD+CON, so it won't be too bad at causing STR damage (or con, if you pump in another 2 points).
Also remember: the multiattack ability at level 9 has a clause that gives you a single iterative with your bite since you have less than 3 natural attacks. And since it will hit like a 2 handed weapon anyway (single natural attacks get 1.5x str and power attack damage), you will be fairly close to par with an eidolon that just grabbed a greatsword at that point.
However, it has been brought to my attention that Bestiary feats such as Improved Natural Attack are not allowed for eidolons, which makes me a sad panda.
Really? Why not?
However, it has been brought to my attention that Bestiary feats such as Improved Natural Attack are not allowed for eidolons, which makes me a sad panda.Really? Why not?
Perusing threads on the subject have pretty much all ended with this consensus. If I'm wrong, I'd love to find out.
The reasoning appears to have been that Bestiary feats are basically out for players unless another legal source allows them. While eidolons aren't specifically ruled out the way animal companions and familiars are, they aren't listed in AR as allowed, so they're out.
I have zero experience with PFS rules, though, so am taking the most restrictive approach.
Hmmm...energy attacks and poisons. That should give a bit more bite to....your bite. The save DC for the poison is 10+1/2 their HD+CON, so it won't be too bad at causing STR damage (or con, if you pump in another 2 points).
Also remember: the multiattack ability at level 9 has a clause that gives you a single iterative with your bite since you have less than 3 natural attacks. And since it will hit like a 2 handed weapon anyway (single natural attacks get 1.5x str and power attack damage), you will be fairly close to par with an eidolon that just grabbed a greatsword at that point.
Hey, I didn't think of poison. *scribbles* Thanks!
I have seen breathing underwater come up once and they made it clear you would need to and gave out some, but not enough, potions. Ive seen swimming come up twice, both times on boats when everything didnt go quite right.
Its very feat intensive but I guess you can go for the dragon style ferocity feat that lets you add half your strength again on your unarmed attack. Youll need feral combat training to get to use it with a bite. Its probably outside the scope of pfs levels.
Sweet. I was looking at the aquatic subtype since it doesn't have any extraneous limbs or attacks and fits my concept better. Maybe I'll actually get a benefit to it besides the improved natural armor.
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I would Defiantly like to see the final creature. I think focusing on the bite is a cool Idea. If your going with a bigger evolution and a bite might I also throw the ability Grab out? I also know of Powerful Bite (2x str to bite T-rex has it) also another ability to mention is death roll like the croc has.....dunno how you can get those abilities but they would be of great benefit and make your Bite versatile.
But Power attack defiantly goes on the list...it is a must have.
The poison Idea would be really cool as well.
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How about a death roll initiated by a bite?
- Evolutions
- Flight(20)
- Flight(Perfect)
- Grab(Bite)
- Constrict
- Bite(Adv)
- Flight(+20)
- Imp Dmg(Bite)
- Sting(1d4)
- Poison(Sting)
- Large
- Feats
- Improved Grapple
- Final Embrace
- Improved Unarmed Strike
- Greater Grapple
- Rapid Grappler
- Hamatula Strike
These are not in order and not all Evolution points are accounted for. The rough template was for around 16th level (the current cap for PFS).
Neat! Grab was definitely a possibility, as was trip. I think constrict requires serpentine, though. Swallow whole seemed like a fun idea, though in practice it might be very situational.
...and the ability to cast enlarge person on the eidolon for another boost.
Possibly worth noting:
Eidolons are outsiders for the purpose of determining which spells affect them.
Target one humanoid creature
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...and the ability to cast enlarge person on the eidolon for another boost.Possibly worth noting:
Eidolons are outsiders for the purpose of determining which spells affect them.Target one humanoid creature
It has been clarified that if the Summoner can cast Enlarge on himself it may also be cast on the Eidolon per the bond.
has anyone said vital strike already?
vital strike!
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Neat! Grab was definitely a possibility, as was trip. I think constrict requires serpentine, though. Swallow whole seemed like a fun idea, though in practice it might be very situational.
You do have to be serpentine for constrict, one of the benefits.
The payout is getting to constrict with each grapple attack for six damage checks a round. Each is at the highest BAB and highest damage bonus. In the end you have like +34 to the checks and that can be boosted with the Huge Evolution and buffs as needed, which consequently also boost the damage considerably.
It has been clarified that if the Summoner can cast Enlarge on himself it may also be cast on the Eidolon per the bond.
Ah yes, my mistake:
A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider).
Wow.
single bite eidolon will start out good, becomes mediocre very soon and sucks later. if we consider not getting a huge eidolon (because it doesnt fit into half the dungeons), but casting enlarge person on the large eidolon whenever there's room, it does 2d6 bitedamage. thats a greatsword. thats what 2 handed fighter types get right off the bat. now the eidolon can get the improved damage evolution, increasing the damage by one size cathegory... well... thats the damage the greatsword does, when you cast enlarge person on the fighter guy instead of the eidolon...
it just cannot compete in the long run. in the early levels the summoner more then makes up for the slightly weaker fighter the eidolon is, but in the long run your eidolon isnt any better then summon monster spells with its low damage, so your summoner will slowly turn into a sorcerer with reduced casting power
luckyly there is always a nice fix!
Should you ever realize that your eidolon sucks, you just get a complete new one on the next level
single bite eidolon will start out good, becomes mediocre very soon and sucks later. if we consider not getting a huge eidolon (because it doesnt fit into half the dungeons), but casting enlarge person on the large eidolon whenever there's room, it does 2d6 bitedamage. thats a greatsword. thats what 2 handed fighter types get right off the bat. now the eidolon can get the improved damage evolution, increasing the damage by one size cathegory... well... thats the damage the greatsword does, when you cast enlarge person on the fighter guy instead of the eidolon...
it just cannot compete in the long run. in the early levels the summoner more then makes up for the slightly weaker fighter the eidolon is, but in the long run your eidolon isnt any better then summon monster spells with its low damage, so your summoner will slowly turn into a sorcerer with reduced casting power
luckyly there is always a nice fix!
Should you ever realize that your eidolon sucks, you just get a complete new one on the next level
What do you define as "Early levels?" Because remember, this is for PFS, which never gets beyond mid levels. So the majority of the career will be at early levels.
....I kind of noticed something with the suggestions: people are forgetting that only the aquatic and quadraped forms are possible for this build.
This is because the other base forms come with 'extras' that take away from the bite (due to the fact that it doesn't have 'only one' natural attack, removing the 1.5x strength and power attack bonus). Admittedly, the biped form could take the slam evo instead of its claws, and thus due a 'one bit bash' build...but we have already established a large interest in the poison evo.
Anyway, unless I am forgetting any other examples of how the base forms can be altered, this is how things stand.
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Definitely grab Reach, Trip and Ability Increase (Strength) - being able to drop people on their ass before they even get close is pretty sweet. I would also put some of those evolution points into other stuff - Improved Natural Armor, Extra Limbs (legs), Burrow, and Web are all pretty cool. Alternately, make a Trample build, so you can trample them and then bite them when they try to get up!
Just imagine: a Huge Eidolon, Enlarged to Gargantuan, trampling all of the enemies in its path... Just makes me want to laugh like a megalomaniac.
However, it has been brought to my attention that Bestiary feats such as Improved Natural Attack are not allowed for eidolons, which makes me a sad panda.Really? Why not?Perusing threads on the subject have pretty much all ended with this consensus. If I'm wrong, I'd love to find out.
The reasoning appears to have been that Bestiary feats are basically out for players unless another legal source allows them. While eidolons aren't specifically ruled out the way animal companions and familiars are, they aren't listed in AR as allowed, so they're out.
I have zero experience with PFS rules, though, so am taking the most restrictive approach.
Hi Blahpers,
You can take feats as long as you meet the prerequisites. The only ones that are highly restricted on feats are animal companions because they are animals. Awesome blow is one of my favorite feats to take when I get my eidolon large as I don't want creatures nearby. In addition, when allies are surrounding the monster, Awesome Blow has been determined to provoke an attack of opportunity as they are forced to move out of a threatened square. This was a popular tactic for "line" control eidolons. In that they, bull rush foes out of the way. I just found it easier to do Awesome Blow to do so. It's a trip on steroids, and will definately make for a memorable eidolon which is what it seems you are looking for. Remember, Eidolons follow the rules that monsters must follow, especially if said person made an eidolon with natural weapons and also used manufactured weapons simultaneously.
Biped vs Quadruped:
Biped
- 1 evo point gives a slam for 1d8
- Higher base Str
- Gets +5 ft reach when large which stacks with the Reach evo
Quadruped
- 0 evo points for bite for 1d6
- Higher base speed
- Can take poison (which I personally don't think is very good)
- Can take mount, grab, swallow whole, trip (because we're using bite instead of slam)
So at level 2, a quadruped would take improved damage, reach, ability score increase (str). The biped would take improved damage, reach, and slam. Both have Power Attack.
Biped: +5 slam (2d6+7/20x2)
Quadr: +5 bite (1d8+7/20x2)
I think Biped is better for this, especially if you're going the Vital Strike route. Vital strike means you want your base damage die to be as large as possible.
I'd go for two bites.