Way of wall of text to read, but it seems that Mathwei ap Niall is understimating hte martial prowess of magus. At that point the magus becomes just a bad wizard.
Theoretically a strength Magus could two-hand his scimitar with power attack and do comparable damage to anyone else doing the same, but I really don't see how you're saying that most of a Magus's damage doesn't come from crit fishing with Intensified Shocking Grasps.
Way of wall of text to read, but it seems that Mathwei ap Niall is understimating hte martial prowess of magus. At that point the magus becomes just a bad wizard.Theoretically a strength Magus could two-hand his scimitar with power attack and do comparable damage to anyone else doing the same, but I really don't see how you're saying that most of a Magus's damage doesn't come from crit fishing with Intensified Shocking Grasps.
It does, but delivering the damage requires you to hit. And to survive be in melee range, and then (if it is a fight against a big number of enemies9 you have to keep figthing.
Really it boils down to you effectively getting free money while not being allowed to choose what that money is spent on.
If you decide you ever want to create an intelligent item then you cannot do so since you already have one on you and no two intelligent items can exist peacefully on a single character.
As for Magus damage:
Against a single target magi can do stupidly high damage--1 shot damage even!--but against large groups it depends on how the magus specialized. A shocking grasp magus is useless against hordes of enemies, while an AOE focused magus is mediocre against a single powerful enemy.
The magus class is designed around the idea of being a melee powerhouse that deals FAR more damage than he could take while mixing martial and magical prowesses to become powerful. In practice the martial just becomes a vehicle for the magical.
There is little to no assurance that they will hit each round like the 2-handed warrior, but they have special tricks that can ensure they survive.
The magus is far inferior to a Fighter 1/Wizard(scryer) 1/EK 10 when it comes to magical power, but when it comes to having tricks to actually do something beyond casting or beat-sticking he can be interesting.
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You can NOT invoke a metamagic rod, or a magus arcana for that matter, on a spell stored inside a weapon. Metamagic rods can only be used while casting, and the casting process has already been completed with putting the spell inside. You can either intensify the shocking grasp, or empower it, not both.A). Your understanding is incorrect and your own quoted link shows you why (though I do appreciate you finding that link I've been looking for that forever). Here I'll break it down for you.
Shocking Grasp is a first level spell, add intensified to it and it's a 2nd level spell. A spell-storing weapon can store up to a third level spell so if I wanted to I could add another +1 metamagic to it and still be able to store it into a spellstoring item. After it's in there and we decide to use it on a hit we can invoke the rod then (or a gem if money's not an issue) and drop an intensified maximized/empowered spell from a spellstoring item.
Way to not bother reading the link to the DEV post OR the text quoted from that DEV post saying that is EXACTLY what you can do.
Go back and read the post and come back after that.@Alexandros, I'm not underestimating the martial ability of the Magus just stating that is significantly inferior to the Magical ability of the magus and THAT is a better place to focus on.
@Alexandros, I'm not underestimating the martial ability of the Magus just stating that is significantly inferior to the Magical ability of the magus and THAT is a better place to focus on.
Fair enough then. I would like to know that magic focused magus if you have an avaliable build.
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You can NOT invoke a metamagic rod, or a magus arcana for that matter, on a spell stored inside a weapon. Metamagic rods can only be used while casting, and the casting process has already been completed with putting the spell inside. You can either intensify the shocking grasp, or empower it, not both.A). Your understanding is incorrect and your own quoted link shows you why (though I do appreciate you finding that link I've been looking for that forever). Here I'll break it down for you.
Shocking Grasp is a first level spell, add intensified to it and it's a 2nd level spell. A spell-storing weapon can store up to a third level spell so if I wanted to I could add another +1 metamagic to it and still be able to store it into a spellstoring item. After it's in there and we decide to use it on a hit we can invoke the rod then (or a gem if money's not an issue) and drop an intensified maximized/empowered spell from a spellstoring item.
Way to not bother reading the link to the DEV post OR the text quoted from that DEV post saying that is EXACTLY what you can do.
Go back and read the post and come back after that.@Alexandros, I'm not underestimating the martial ability of the Magus just stating that is significantly inferior to the Magical ability of the magus and THAT is a better place to focus on.
Well I'm actually going to say that the Dev is wrong on this. Because what are you doing when you're unleashing that spell, you're in melee, probably engaging in spell combat casting another spell while you're unleashing the magic stored in the blade.
Where is the free hand for holding a metamagic rod for applying metamagic on this process? If I had seen Jason's post in the wild, I probably would have brought up some objections against using the metamagic rod in either end of the process.
There's also another issue. When the magic of a spellstoring weapon is released, it is not a...
So your argument is that YOU are smarter and know more then the guy who CREATED the game and is responsible for exactly how the game works (AND the creative director who decides how the world works) and everyone should listen to you instead of them? Ok.
As for where the rod is well A). noone said the rod is being used during spell combat and B). if it is being used there are soooo many ways to have a third hand to hold a rod that it's immaterial to this discussion.
@Thaago, you are the one who found the dev post stating you can.
This does not work.
There is an ambiguity in the language of the spell storing property here that is causing a bit of confusion. The storage process for adding a spell to a spell storing weapon is a special action that is similar, although not the same as casting a spell. The issue here is that the rod applies to a spell as it is being cast, which this is not quite the same.
In the end, this is an issue for your GM to decide, but since I tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to issues such as these, I am going to say that this does not work. A spell storing weapon holds a spell of up to 3rd level. A metamagic rod cannot be used during the storage process (although I would probably allow it during the usages of the stored spell... )
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
@alexandros, sure, if you want to see any of the more magically focused magus builds we've done go ahead and read them.
Magus Builds
It seemst hat there is no conclusive answer (about the spellstoring issue).
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@Thaago, you are the one who found the dev post stating you can.Uhhh, but you didn't actually answer my point: it is the weapon casting the spell. In this case, I'm going to say that the completely unambiguous text overrules "although I would probably allow it during the usages of the stored spell...".
Either way, this needs to be brought up in a separate thread and FAQ's, because spellstrike is completely broken with this. Even without free action weapon changes there are a dozen ways to simultaneously wield lots of weapons (actually having two weapons, and then spiked gauntlets under each one is 4 already and thats without any shenanigans).
I didn't make the post so I can't answer the question, I'm not a dev so the reasoning behind it is a mystery to me. All I can do is quote the devs rulings and follow them since the game is based on the decisions these DEV's make. If you don't like those rulings you are free to make your own call but at that point we are now playing completely different games and have nothing to discuss.
So, I'll try to address all of your points, Mathwei, in the most rational way I can.
A). Since the OP was asking about a PFS character with a level cap of 12 delaying all Arcana until 6th level IS half the characters career. I feel justified in that statement.
Except for a quarter of that, you don't get an Arcana anyways. It's a potential loss of 2 Arcana, one if you weren't planning on spending the 5th level feat on it.
On top of the Arcana, the Bladebound loses out on a total of four Arcane Pool points by level 20. From levels 1-3, you notice no difference; levels 4-7 and 9, you're one behind; levels 8, 10-13 and 15, you're two behind; levels 14 and 16-19, you're three behind; at 20, you finally fall your total of four behind. For the entirety of a PFS career, you are never more than two points behind, which is very easily made up for with two first level pearls of power and a second level pearl; in fact, this is easily afforded without having to pay for a weapon, and gives you more than those two points would, and you should have plenty more money on top of that. For everyone else, you're still almost never more than three off, and that can still be more than made up for with your gain in WBL by not having to pay for a weapon. With just paying for pearls of power, you can effectively gain points over that of a normal Magus. Or you can go for more versatile bonuses with the extra money.
Now, in exchange for your 3rd level Arcana, you get the following:
-A weapon that may argue with you from time to time; this depends largely on DM fiat, and can probably be avoided for the most part in PFS.
-Alertness as a free feat. Bonuses to Perception are always welcome.
-A weapon with its own Arcane Pool. 1 point from levels 3-4; 2 points from 5-8; 3 points from 9-12.
-+1 to +3 to damage (+1 at levels 3-4; +2 at levels 5-8; +3 at 9-12) as a free action for one point from your blade's Arcane Pool.
-Change your weapon's damage entirely to an energy type of your choice for two points from your blade's Arcane Pool from fifth level on.
-More if you're playing in a home game that plays that high.
If we think of it as such, I'd say this is quite a reasonable Arcana.
B). The Magus IS a primary caster, just not a 9 spell level class. Everything about the base Magus is designed around it's spellcasting & magical abilities, the martial abilities are strictly secondary to that.
I disagree with this, and I'll show you why. I tallied up all the Arcana, as well as the other class abilities. I divvied them up into one of four categories: martial, caster, both, or utility/neither. Here's what I found:
Admittedly, Familiar could probably be put in caster, as well, but it's used for a very wide variety of things.
And no utility class features.
Finally, the spells themselves have a large variety of both martially focused and debuff/control focused effects.
Overall, this is a wide spread of power. The Arcana, which account for 6 of your 23 class abilities (read: over a quarter) have a more martial focus, and make up for the three more caster focused abilities in the rest of your class features. I would say this points to a balanced approach to magic and martial prowess in the class, not a leaning toward one side or the other. It's almost as if it's supposed to be both together, and not one with a flavor of the other.
A Gish (which is all the magus is) is just a specialized caster who uses their spells in melee range to eliminate their target(s). It sacrifices the high end reality bending powers of the usual wizard for superior direct damage dealing ability. Trying to match the nova output from the spellcasting with the blade is doomed to failure.
And both the normal Magus and the Bladebound Magus do this spectacularly; nowhere do you lose your ability to enhance your blade (such as during the first round, which will inevitably be pre-buffing before busting the door in or moving up to the enemies; in either case, before you attack and are worried about using your swift action on Arcane Accuracy and whatnot), use pearls of power (in place of spell recall to save on points; or just grab a wyroot club and a bag of rats and never worry about it again for either side), or use Spell Combat and Spellstrike. You don't miss out on any spells as a Bladebound, and you trade one low-level Arcana for one that gives you a variety of bonuses that scale with your level (the black blade).
An example spell based caster will focus on something like Frostbite instead and easily double the damage output (an extra ((1D6+level)*1.5) BEFORE factoring in regular attacks) and with his spell-storing weapon he adds an additional an extra 60 pts (intensified maximized Shocking grasped stored in it) and throwing Natural Attack build on it kicks it up an additional 60-90 pts a round (AoMF-Spell-Storing).
On top of that since he picked up Spell-Scars and accurate strikes and doesn't need to burn an arcane point to enhance his weapon on the first round he instead uses that action to go accurate strikes and make sure all of his attacks hit instead of missing with half of them like the BB does.
He can EASILY destroy his target in the first round while the BB is still getting ready and manage to have enough spells available/stored to be able to do this for every fight, every day. The BlackBlade traded away this power to save a little cash at the early part of the game.
The Bladebound could still do all of this. Nowhere in the archetype does it say you can't Spellstrike or use Spell Combat; it just also gives you some other bonuses in place of a low level Arcana, and some Pool points that can be made up for with your gain in WBL over the normal Magus. If you're so focused on the Spellstrike damage, and you're in melee on the first round of combat, and you absolutely have to nova on your first round, you can skip the Arcane Pool enhancement and go straight to Spellstriking your enemy in the face. You'll do a few d6s less damage without your bonus weapon properties, but as you say, the majority of the damage is from the spell anyway.
Everything the martial focused Magi can do the Caster focused one can do faster, cheaper and better.
Now I will say that calling the BlackBlade a terrible archetype may be overstating it. A more accurate statement would be that the BB is a significantly sub-optimal choice. Not TERRIBLE but really less then ideal use of resources.
I'd say that you're vastly exaggerating what's lost by the Bladebound. The changes are actually fairly small on the whole. Only two things are changed between it and the Magus: a fairly small reduction in the Arcane Pool, which isn't a huge loss and can be made up for easily as mentioned above, and the trade of one Arcana for the blade itself. I'm not going to say that it's strictly more powerful than the normal Magus because it's not; it's different, but neither noticeably less or more powerful than normal.
I've played a Bladebound Hexcrafter, as has a friend in another game I played in. It's a decent archetype, its power depends on wealth AND level. It really hurts initially, then it quickly becomes awesome around level 5 when you have a +2 weapon and can add another +1 keen via arcana, you feel like a badass. Then the bonuses fall behind what a normal weapon could have and the lower arcana really starts to hurt. I know the black blade gets its own arcane pool to "make up" for this. But its abilities are far FAR worse than the magus's, so that's not much of a consolation prize. Then at level 19 you get Life Drinker to get back an arcana each time you kill someone (oh, and the blade gets one too *shrug*) and it's sorta awesome again.
So, by level...
1-2: No difference
3-4: Pain
5-10ish: It's good to be the king
11-18: Maybe I'd be better off making it my backup weapon... Also, **** do I miss having a familiar
19-20: Woo! Infinite arcana!
Also, all of the black blade abilities other than Life Drinker are either worthless, way too situational to matter enough, or "familiar does it, too." I could break them all down for you, but the categorizations should be pretty obvious...
Not getting an Arcana at 3 does hurt quite a bit in the short term, and never getting Familiar (and thus never getting an Improved Familiar) never stops hurting, later on a familiar + Use Magic Device is basically a whole extra set of actions each turn, not to mention other goodies like Telepathy.
I'm not hating on the archetype, I actually quite like it. I used it for my one and only Magus and talked my friend into picking it, too. But it has its share of ups and downs, and how good it is really does depend on the level range you're playing in (along with the level of wealth the DM hands out). For something like PFS's level range, it probably comes out looking really good.
The only real "disappointment" my friend and I both found with it was that Slumber is so freaking incredible, it's hard to justify doing the whole mage-knight melee shtick at all when you can just Slumber everything. Hexcrafter is best-crafter. For sure!
Then the bonuses fall behind what a normal weapon could have and the lower arcana really starts to hurt.
LOL! That's absolutely hilarious, because I'm in Jade Regent right now with my magus and my black blade is more powerful than the artifact weapon at this point, and has been. Let me show you how this weapon tracks on Jade Regent:
So, by level...
1-2: Awesome, who got a +1 here?
3-4: Tied with the best magic items in the party
5-10ish: Better than the artifact weapon
11-18: Still better than the artifact weapon
19-20: Who adventures here?
Compared to weapons we've found it's clearly ahead (there have been no magical scimitars and I'm a dervish dancer). Compared to weapons I could have purchased with gold available while I had access to the proper size town it's vastly superior.
Sure, if gold is no object you're just as well off going elsewhere for your weapon. In an AP you won't be able to keep up with a black blade.
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@Alexandros, I'm not underestimating the martial ability of the Magus just stating that is significantly inferior to the Magical ability of the magus and THAT is a better place to focus on.
The well built magus is capable of both, and far stronger than the simple sum of his parts. That is the true strength of the class.
That said: I favor both the bladebound and kensai archetypes. My magic is used to ensure I deal substantial, sustained damage. That damage may be melee, magical or both as circumstances dictate.
Then the bonuses fall behind what a normal weapon could have and the lower arcana really starts to hurt.LOL! That's absolutely hilarious, because I'm in Jade Regent right now with my magus and my black blade is more powerful than the artifact weapon at this point, and has been. Let me show you how this weapon tracks on Jade Regent:
So, by level...
1-2: Awesome, who got a +1 here?
3-4: Tied with the best magic items in the party
5-10ish: Better than the artifact weapon
11-18: Still better than the artifact weapon
19-20: Who adventures here?Compared to weapons we've found it's clearly ahead (there have been no magical scimitars and I'm a dervish dancer). Compared to weapons I could have purchased with gold available while I had access to the proper size town it's vastly superior.
Sure, if gold is no object you're just as well off going elsewhere for your weapon. In an AP you won't be able to keep up with a black blade.
I don't know what "the artifact weapon" refers to, but that must be very different than normal WBL. Free magic items will always rock in a game where WBL is crap and/or you can't obtain level-appropriate magic items you want (what good is having 20k to spend on a sword at level 10 if the DM refuses to provide you with a place you can actually buy a weapon that costs that much?). If you do play in such a game, you're better off as a Bladebound Magus, though you'd be even better off being a primary caster and not needing much gear at all.
Getting a +3 or +4 sword by the early double digit levels shouldn't be too taxing for most characters, and you can get it with whatever properties you want instead of a flat +X bonus. No doubt, the black blade is cheaper than paying money, I never claimed otherwise. But it does have its own costs - the arcana slot and never getting a familiar, namely - that will weigh on you. And if you *do* have the cash to get a better weapon anyway, sure you could use that money towards a bit more AC or whatever, but you're losing out on offense then. If you DO buy a custom weapon along with the black blade, then the archetype just becomes a sunk cost.
Supposedly a character willing to blow that much money on one item is expected to be able to get a +9 or +10 weapon by 20th level; surely you'd agree there's some point where the capped-at-plus-five black blade falls behind the best weapon you could find/buy at that level. That's all I'm saying... And in my view, that point occurs around mid level.
Again, I *like* the archetype, it's the only way I've ever played a Magus, and as a martial character I look for any way possible to reduce my equipment expenses, so it works for me. But you do eventually pay the price with an inferior weapon and I really wish they had left some means to add special properties to it on your own dime.
As far as Energy Attunement...it's just too costly for how long it lasts and what it does, *especially* at the level you obtain it. It's not horrible, but your enhancement bonus alone will render lots of DR moot and most of the magus's damage comes from non-physical sources (spells, via spell combat) already anyway. It could be great on very rare occasions.
Wait a second, you're honestly coming here trying to tell me that a player who blows half his wealth by level on a weapon is going to be BETTER OFF than a player who gets a sword valued at that much for free?
I really fail to see how the black blade loses out at all. It's free money for the cost of almost nothing of value (those arcana lose value as you level). You're pretending the losses are greater than they are. Also, the black blade IS a familiar in many ways, it assists your skill checks and can take certain actions of its own.
Still, it seems the forums have decided to hivemind on this, no talking people out of it once someone has created a thread declaring something as terrible.
Right, we've all just hopped on the bandwagon and none of us have put any thought into this at all. You know better than the sheep.
Offense is much more important than defense, that's just how it is. Once you can afford a better, customized weapon of your own, it's worth spending a huge chunk of your wealth on it. There's no greater safety than the enemy never getting his turn and no greater "debuff" than dead.
And no, unless the Black Blade can start using a wand of Entangle on its own actions or whatever, it will never be like a familiar. Extra (useful) actions are really powerful.
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Still, it seems the forums have decided to hivemind on this, no talking people out of it once someone has created a thread declaring something as terrible.
Uh...what? The majority of people (including me, for the record) seem to agree with you while StreamOfSky and a significant minority of others disagree. How in the world is that forum hive mind'?
And the OP didn't declare it terrible he heard someone else do so, thought it looked pretty good and asked why someone would think it was terrible. Did you even read the OP or this thread in general?
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I think it would be appropiate to mention that this "free" weapon everyone is talking about can be easily replaced. Not by buying another weapon, but by a level 3 spell: Greater Magic Weapon. With one spell slot, you get the same progression as the black blade (except 3 levels behind). But you can also enchant the blade in addition to it.
For example, Level 8 Blade Bound gets +2, and his arcane pool. Normal magus gets +2 from GMW, plus any special qualities the weapon has (such as flaming), and his arcane pool.
So free weapon? Sure, but your lagging behind.
Greater Magic Weapon also has the downside of not bypassing material and alignment DR, so there is something to be said for having an actual enhancement bonus.
Context: didn't read the whole thread.
The bladebound archetype is fine, the delay in arcana can be rough, but personally I haven't found many must-have arcana.
Reducing the arcane pool isn't great, but overall you only lose a few points. At level 10 the difference is only 2, and your blackblade has it's own points it can spend (albeit in a more limited fashion). If you happen to be giving up spell recall (hexcrafter), it's even less damaging.
Personally, I love the flavor of the blackblade. I've flavored my PFS CG tiefling magus as imparting the negative aspect of her bloodline into the blade. In a home game where the GM would actually make use of your blackblade's personality, that probably wouldn't be a good idea though :P (Same reason I only took the wizard bonded item in PFS.)
Arcane pool can help with bypassing DR, both by just giving it a better enhancement that counts (I think?) towards DR-busting and for being able to apply Holy and such after a while. In any case, Magus's damage will mainly come from his spellstrike anyway and that's not subject to DR.
+3 Weapons bypass cold iron/silver
+4 = adamantine
+5 = alignment DR
The blackblade does make reaching those a bit easier, so that's something!
I'm the one who expressed the hatred for this archetype but I agree one hundred percent with your statements here.My real issue with it is this is an archetype that takes away choices and options from the player all to save you a little cash which is the easiest most abundant resource in the game.
All taking this archetype does is save you a little cash up front in exchange for flexibility and power later in the game.Add to that it really does lock you into a more martial style of play as opposed to magical. You are effectively trading your ability to bend reality over your knee and beat it to your whim for a hunk of pig iron that's a little easier to swing but acts like a stuck up girlfriend if you try to do what it doesn't think you should.
It's not a rationale trade.
As someone who played a bladebound Magus for about 2 years, it's so not an issue. I had no trouble bending reality, because I took Extra Arcane Pool like 3 times. I was practically freaking invincible and doing 200 DPR.
Granted, it takes a bit longer to get off the ground, but then the Magus doesn't really rock until 7th level anyway and by then you have your arcana.
How exactly does this archetype affect your casting late-game? I'm confused.
Or you could spend, what, 4-6k getting adamantine/cold iron/silver weapons?
Wouldn't that negate the "have additional enchants" or the monetary edge of the Greater Magic Weapon route? Magic weapon costs escalate quickly, hence people only wanting to buy one in the first place.
Still as StreamOfTheSky reminded me DR really isn't a huge deal to the Magus anyway, so my original statement bringing up DR wasn't terribly relevant.
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I think it would be appropiate to mention that this "free" weapon everyone is talking about can be easily replaced. Not by buying another weapon, but by a level 3 spell: Greater Magic Weapon. With one spell slot, you get the same progression as the black blade (except 3 levels behind). But you can also enchant the blade in addition to it.
For example, Level 8 Blade Bound gets +2, and his arcane pool. Normal magus gets +2 from GMW, plus any special qualities the weapon has (such as flaming), and his arcane pool.
So free weapon? Sure, but your lagging behind.
GMW, and every other magic weapon in the game, lack many of the abilities a Black Blade has access too.
A big one on burst DPR is the Black Blade Strike. Nothing else in the game has that.
Another one is energy attunement. No other weapon in the game can can choose to convert its entire damage to an arbitrary energy type, including sonic or force.
The higher level abilities are even more impressive: teleporting, granting SR, Life Drinker. A high level Black Blade is, for most purposes, an artifact. An artifact that cost you 1 arcana.
Or you could spend, what, 4-6k getting adamantine/cold iron/silver weapons?
Or use those 4-6 K in something else.
GMW, and every other magic weapon in the game, lack many of the abilities a Black Blade has access too.
A big one on burst DPR is the Black Blade Strike. Nothing else in the game has that.
Another one is energy attunement. No other weapon in the game can can choose to convert its entire damage to an arbitrary energy type, including sonic or force.
The higher level abilities are even more impressive: teleporting, granting SR, Life Drinker. A high level Black Blade is, for most purposes, an artifact. An artifact that cost you 1 arcana.
Black Blade Strike is a tiny bonus on damage that's nowhere near as good as a point spent on enhancing a weapon with the Magus's own arcane pool. Which I compare with because a Blackblade has effectively stolen some of your own pool to take as its own when you compare the amounts. You *can* make use of both simultaneously, though. It's still hardly a big contributor to "burst DPR."
Energy Attunement will seldom really be needed since the spellstrike will be ignoring DR anyway, and it's just too costly for only 1 round w/ black blade's tiny arcane pool. especially if paying 2 for the good energy types.
Teleport Blade is "useful" in the same way the Spell Mastery feat is "useful." That is, it's not. It will almost never be needed, if ever, and it has the unfortunate psychological effect of subconsciously making your DM think about stripping you of the item (since you have a class feature or feat to handle that situation), making it more likely to actually occur.
The SR is an absolute joke. It's SR 22 at level 17-18 and SR 24 from 19-20. SR is usually 10 + HD, this is much worse and only lasts 1 round. If the added enhancements of arcane pool up the ego score, this might be better...
Life Drinker, as I said, is the one truly awesome ability. But as Lastoth said...."who plays at level 19-20?"
The abilities of the black blade are largely crap, and I'd much rather just get magic weapon special properties, even crappy ones like flaming.
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Black Blade Strike is a tiny bonus on damage that's nowhere near as good as a point spent on enhancing a weapon with the Magus's own arcane pool. Which I compare with because a Blackblade has effectively stolen some of your own pool to take as its own when you compare the amounts. You *can* make use of both simultaneously, though. It's still hardly a big contributor to "burst DPR."
Black Blade Strike is the equivalent of moving from a 1d6 weapon to a 1d10 weapon at 5'th level. Think about the convolutions melee go through to increase weapon size.
At higher level, it does more damage than Greater Weapon Specialization, and stacks with the feat chain.
Energy Attunement will seldom really be needed since the spellstrike will be ignoring DR anyway, and it's just too costly for only 1 round w/ black blade's tiny arcane pool. especially if paying 2 for the good energy types.
Assuming I'm using an intensified Shocking Grasp, spellstrike is still only half my damage in a normal fight.
Now consider a monster with a vulnerability is incorporeal. Shadows seem to be everybodies favorite mob to mention when tell them your playing a dex build. Here's your response: shadows won't live to round two.
Teleport Blade is "useful" in the same way the Spell Mastery feat is "useful." That is, it's not. It will almost never be needed, if ever, and it has the unfortunate psychological effect of subconsciously making your DM think about stripping you of the item (since you have a class feature or feat to handle that situation), making it more likely to actually occur.
Stop: think about all those published scenarios that force people to enter an area unarmed.
The bladebound magus just smiles. He's never unarmed.
The SR is an absolute joke. It's SR 22 at level 17-18 and SR 24 from 19-20. SR is usually 10 + HD, this is much worse and only lasts 1 round. If the added enhancements of arcane pool up the ego score, this might be better...
Life Drinker, as I said, is the one truly awesome ability. But as Lastoth said...."who plays at level 19-20?"
The abilities of the black blade are largely crap, and I'd much rather just get magic weapon special properties, even crappy...
We understand. You don't enjoy having options or stacking bonuses. That is okay. Nobody is making you take them.
You play your way, I'll play mine.
Teleport Blade is "useful" in the same way the Spell Mastery feat is "useful." That is, it's not. It will almost never be needed, if ever, and it has the unfortunate psychological effect of subconsciously making your DM think about stripping you of the item (since you have a class feature or feat to handle that situation), making it more likely to actually occur.Stop: think about all those published scenarios that force people to enter an area unarmed.
The bladebound magus just smiles. He's never unarmed.
Meanwhile, the sorcerer with all his cosmic power is totally unphased and the fighter weeps that all the things he put into his one weapon are totally useless.
This game is pretty awful and imbalanced about the whole enter unarmed gig, and there are a number of ways to get into those places with a weapon of some sort, that if you use a weapon, you should really consider taking. Never really liked using it as a defense for any ability.
Anyways, black blades big losses are its familiar and the lack of control over your enhancement progression. Depending on your game that could be a total life saver and the ease of use with weapons and lack of worries about constantly replacing your gear are both very awesome, but on the other hand if you actually have access to the magic mart or expect to get better weapons than its enhancement, you feel like your falling behind. The loss of familiar is big because the familiar can do so much and to be honest the loss feels rather arbitrary and heavy handed. Familiars are extremely versatile, wand use, scouting, roleplay, skills, and their passive bonus they give you is almost equivalent of a feat itself, and then you get alertness, which is just icing, though bladebound gives alertness too! The blackblades abilities happen to be somewhat situational or too small a number to care much about(though lifedrinker is made of amazing, 19th level is usually not something you see).
The magus arcana loss I've always thought is a bit questionable because it delays taking extra arcane twice, and the loss of your arcana isn't really made up for by the blade having its own pool.
We understand. You don't enjoy having options or stacking bonuses. That is okay. Nobody is making you take them.
Remember, its not just about having options, but the quality of those options.
Remember, its not just about having options, but the quality of those options.Yes it is, and the options granted by my magi's black blade have saved his life several times to date.
Storytime? I wouldn't mind a campfire and smores for this! Doesn't work so well over the computer though. best I can do dontcha' know.
Always good to give examples from experience imo. Just saying you have them makes me want to hear them.
The magus arcana loss I've always thought is a bit questionable because it delays taking extra arcane twice, and the loss of your arcana isn't really made up for by the blade having its own pool.
Sidenote: I do like playing with the combo of Bladebound + Hexcrafter, and have always assumed the Hexcrafter's gaining of a Hex at level 4 and the fact he can use arcana to select another hex to mean that at 5th level (before he gets his first potentially "not a hex" arcana at 6th) he can take Extra Arcana as a bonus feat. Or at least he can take it to select a hex, which is what I'd be doing anyway (4th level = Slumber; 5th level feat = Flight. Always.).
But...I'm not sure if that's actually RAW or not. If it is, that's at least one tiny little benefit of combining the two, from Bladebound's perspective. Still can't take Extra Arcana at 3...just gives you more reason to lean towards Dervish Dance.
Teleport Blade is "useful" in the same way the Spell Mastery feat is "useful." That is, it's not. It will almost never be needed, if ever, and it has the unfortunate psychological effect of subconsciously making your DM think about stripping you of the item (since you have a class feature or feat to handle that situation), making it more likely to actually occur.Stop: think about all those published scenarios that force people to enter an area unarmed.
The bladebound magus just smiles. He's never unarmed.
Meanwhile, the sorcerer with all his cosmic power is totally unphased and the fighter weeps that all the things he put into his one weapon are totally useless.
This game is pretty awful and imbalanced about the whole enter unarmed gig, and there are a number of ways to get into those places with a weapon of some sort, that if you use a weapon, you should really consider taking. Never really liked using it as a defense for any ability.
Definitely agree.
Anyways, black blades big losses are its familiar and the lack of control over your enhancement progression. Depending on your game that could be a total life saver and the ease of use with weapons and lack of worries about constantly replacing your gear are both very awesome, but on the other hand if you actually have access to the magic mart or expect to get better weapons than its enhancement, you feel like your falling behind.
Except with your arcane pool, you don't have a huge problem hitting the +9-10 range on your weapon, and not spending 200k on your weapon gives you plenty of opportunity to make it up. A couple two-spell pearls of power costs 140k, and gives you back anywhere from 4-10 arcane pool points from not spending them on Arcane Recall (anywhere from 4 1st-3rd level spells, to 2 6th and 2 5th level spells); I'd say this makes up for the 4 you miss out on (though actually only 3 until 20th level, as I showed in a previous post), and still leaves you with money to spend on other things.
Or grab a bag of rats and a wyroot club and go nonlethal-CDGing after combat, and this is basically an entirely moot point.
The loss of familiar is big because the familiar can do so much and to be honest the loss feels rather arbitrary and heavy handed. Familiars are extremely versatile, wand use, scouting, roleplay, skills, and their passive bonus they give you is almost equivalent of a feat itself, and then you get alertness, which is just icing, though bladebound gives alertness too! The blackblades abilities happen to be somewhat situational or too small a number to care much about(though lifedrinker is made of amazing, 19th level is usually not something you see).
Agree here as well.
The magus arcana loss I've always thought is a bit questionable because it delays taking extra arcane twice, and the loss of your arcana isn't really made up for by the blade having its own pool.
I think the blade is able to make up for the arcana loss overall, but worst case it's just another excuse to go Dervish Dance anyways; spending your 3rd level feat on that means you're only missing out on the 5th level chance to take Extra Arcana. You should be able to shuffle feats around to deal with that one (take something else at 5th and take EA at 7th).
So, I think we are all agreeing here, though, that it's at least a potentially enjoyable archetype, and can contribute plenty to the group so as not to drag it down, even if it's not entirely optimal.
i think blackbound is the best archetype for roleplaying... imagine the wielder controlled by his own weapon... can really be funny!
Mm nope I don't dump wisdom.
The Bladebound Hexcrafter in my game does pretty well for himself. The blackblade thus far (PCs are level 7) has been a pretty good boon, since the PCs are behind on WBL (kind of) and just got their first +2 weapons last session. I actually designed an entire series of side-adventures around the history and goals of the magus's blackblade, although they may go to waste because his attendance has been poor as of late. =(
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The Bladebound Hexcrafter in my game does pretty well for himself. The blackblade thus far (PCs are level 7) has been a pretty good boon, since the PCs are behind on WBL (kind of) and just got their first +2 weapons last session. I actually designed an entire series of side-adventures around the history and goals of the magus's blackblade, although they may go to waste because his attendance has been poor as of late. =(
Sorry to hear about that. It is always a shame when creativity goes unrewarded.
Actually, have you put these side-adventures down on the net somewhere ? I might reuse them for the adventures of my own H/BB Magus player in Jade Regent. Or they could help another GM with a similar PC build and less creativity than you have ;-)
The Bladebound Hexcrafter in my game does pretty well for himself. The blackblade thus far (PCs are level 7) has been a pretty good boon, since the PCs are behind on WBL (kind of) and just got their first +2 weapons last session. I actually designed an entire series of side-adventures around the history and goals of the magus's blackblade, although they may go to waste because his attendance has been poor as of late. =(Sorry to hear about that. It is always a shame when creativity goes unrewarded.
Actually, have you put these side-adventures down on the net somewhere ? I might reuse them for the adventures of my own H/BB Magus player in Jade Regent. Or they could help another GM with a similar PC build and less creativity than you have ;-)
I have not. I wouldn't really know where to put them, and I've really only created the framework for them - general ideas, NPCs, and the background story. Haven't really sat down yet and designed dungeons and encounters, and if my magus player doesn't improve his attendance I probably won't because I'll phase his character out of the game, and the rest of the party doesn't have any real motivation to pursue these adventures.