| TaliaKirana |
I'm preparing to app for a pbp, and I could use some advice. I know I want to be a Kitsune Ninja, and I want to grab the Fox Shape feat when I can. (I want to be super sneaky and being able to take on fox form amuses me too much to pass it up.) It's a 15 point buy, and I can only have one trait. I'm not looking to be super optimized, I just don't want to be useless.
| MattR1986 |
You'd be able to take that at 5th I believe. I'm not sure why a Fox is tiny, but on srd it is, so remember that you get a +8 to stealth when you are in fox form.
10, 18, 10, 10, 10, 15 isn't bad and you can raise cha at 4th for ninja related stuff.
At 5th level you're realistically looking at:
+4 Dex + 5 ranks + 3 class + 8 fox = +20 right there. Skill focus(stealth) and stealthy would be another +5.
In the long run there are probably other classes that give +1/2 level stealth that will make you stealthier. You'll likely want to invest some in UMD for an invis wand or throw money in potions to lock in that stealth for those who cant see invisibility.
| Guardianlord |
Vanishing trick, finesse, TWF, Main stats DEX and CHA. Fast stealth can be really handy too. UMD for wands of Invisibility, alter self, grease, barkskin, etc.
Vanishing trick is great and only gets better (swift action invisible to get free ff sneak attack when you attack next), dual Wakizashis (better if you are finesse rogue) agile then keen if you can (Ninjas have a hard time hitting for a martial class), and invest in cheap poisons for low levels as poison DC's stack if applied in the same round as with TWF.
Tanglefoot bags are great for rogues and ninjas with high DEX (-dex, 1/2 speed, caster concentration, -attack).
Put at least a few ranks into KNOW (Make checks to find an enemies weaknesses and share with the party or to help you with scouting).
Rely on hit and run tactics, Ninjas are squishy but they can hit hard for Sneak, use Vanishing trick to set yourself up for TWF flanked sneak attacks, Spring loaded wrist sheath can be really useful for Shuriken, or daggers (counts as quick-drawn).
Later levels a cloak of the hedge wizard (prestigitation, 1 cantrip unlimited, and 2 1/day lvl 1's of the same school, I suggest Illusion), sleeves of many garments can be handy as well for disguises (200gp is cheap) are all handy. Hat of disguise for later levels.
| TaliaKirana |
Oh, I forgot to add we're starting at level 2. Mostly it's trying to figure out what my feats and trait should be, and how I should spread her stats. Rereading the Ninja entry... this fits so well with a kitsune it's scary. I will state she's not evil. Chaotic Good is what I'm looking at. She's gonna be kind of a mischievous prankster, but not cruel. (Strongly tempted to grab the minor magic trick at some point so she can have Prestidigitation.)
Deadmanwalking
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Minor Magic definitely isn't worth it for a Ninja.
What Guardianlord said is all very true (though the Realistic Likeness feat, if you choose to take it, removes the need for a Hat of Disguise), but I'd also like to recommend the Scout archetype (which can be used with Ninja), and then, at 14th or 15th level (if you get that high) Vulpine Pounce, which is just phenomenal when combined with Scout and TWF.
| kBro |
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Kitsune Ninja are awesome. I'm playing one in a campaign now, and we just hit level 10, which is where the ridiculous ninja stuff happens (half jump DCs and greater invis). You can stay useful in a number of ways with all the great racial feats available to Kitsune.
For stats, I would go with 10/16/12/12/12/14. It's pretty balanced.
I highly recommend the Scout archetype for granting you additional ways to get sneak attack beyond flanking. I also recommend the Kitsune Trickster archetype (replaces poison use and no trace) for some nice boosts to social skills and Charm Person x/day. I also recommend using the Kitsune alternate racial favored class bonus to get extra ninja tricks, taking HP levels 1-4 and the alt 5-10 so you can grab two advanced ninja tricks at level 10.
Weapon finesse will likely be your level 1 feat. Level 3 you can go for two weapon fighting right away, but since you already have an additional attack from ki and a natural attack you can wait. Instead you can take the great racial feat Realistic Likeness which is an amazing infiltration and disguise tool (and if you're GM is nice he might let you mimic humanoids rather than just humans since it functions like alter self; my GM let me do that). Level 5 you definitely want to take the Fox Shape feat, because who doesn't like to scout as a tiny creature with scent and a +8 size bonus to stealth. In the following levels you'll want to take the Two Weapon Fighting feat line. At some point grab Swift Shapechanger which will let you shapeshift super fast (example : say your scouting as a fox and encounter someone; surprise round shapeshift as swift and charge). At level 14 you will qualify for the amazing Vulpine Pounce, which with the scout archetype is brutal (and you can pounce in the surprise round since it's part of a charge and you can charge as a standard if necessary).
For ninja tricks the obvious choices are Vanishing Trick at level 2 and Invisible Blade at level 10. The Offensive Defensive rogue talent is fantastic since it will help protect you after a sneak attack and scales well. Fast Stealth is a must if you'll be scouting. I like the Forgotten Trick ninja trick in combination with a Ring of Ki Mastery which lets you grab any ninja trick you don't have for a number of rounds equal to your level at the cost of 1 ki (2 w/out the ring), which combined with Combat Trick lets you adapt to different situations easily, or you can grab the ninja tricks for darkvision, a climb speed, or unarmed strike ability when you need them. If forgotten trick isn't something you think you'd need, you could grab Combat Trick to grab a combat feat instead or the Weapon Training trick. The Wall Climber ninja trick is also very nice.
Here's an example build that would be both effective in combat and out of combat.
Stats : 10/16/12/12/12/14
Level 1 - feat : Weapon Finesse
Level 2 - trick : Vanishing Trick
Level 3 - feat : Realistic Likeness
Level 4 - trick : rogue talent : Offensive Defensive
Level 5 - feat : Fox Shape
Level 6 - trick : Combat Trick : Two Weapon Fighting
Level 7 - feat : Swift Shapechange
Level 8 - trick : Fast Stealth
Level 9 - feat : Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Level 10 - adv.trick : Invisible Blade
You've got multiple ways to get sneak attack through invisibility, flanking, and charging. You've got great scouting ability with Fox Shape, and great infiltration with Realistic Likeness. At level 8 you get sneak attack by moving 10 feet, which is hugely useful if you're using a shortbow against flying enemies or enemies with reach. At level 10 you've got greater invisibility and should be able to jump 60ft horizontally or 15ft vertically on a 10. Out of combat you've got great skills and great ability in social encounters due to adding Int to a number of social skills, along with having Charm Person as a spell like ability. You will in no way be useless with all these tools at your disposal.
Fast forward to level 15 when you have Vulpine Pounce and Greater Two Weapon Fighting. Combat becomes this (assuming starting in non natural form and just using invisible blade) : surprise round shift and pounce on nearest enemy, attacking 7 times; round 1 full attack until dead, if dead shift to non natural form; round 2 shift and pounce on new target, attacking 7 times; round 3 full attack until dead, if dead shift to non natural form; repeat as necessary until all things dead. Every round you are attacking as many times as you can at whatever you can reach, while jumping between enemies, getting 8d6 sneak attack on every attack.
| Lune |
Aside from the other excellent advice in this thread I would highly recommend taking advantage of the race's alternate favored class bonus of 1/6 for a rogue talent. At level 6 you will be able to get two rogue talents. If you are worried about this cutting into you HP total then you can take the toughness feat. This feat definitely wont go to waste for levels 1-6 and then for all levels after that you are better off with continuing to get rogue talents. 3 extra rogue talents by level 18 is WAY too good to pass up.
If you are ever content with the amount of sneak attack damage that you do and want to add some versatility and flavor I would recommend taking a look at gaining a 3+ levels in Horizon Walker for several interesting options. Forest for +4 stealth, swamp for +4 to perception, underground for blind fight, urban for +4 to diplomacy are all good for this type of character. Astral plane for dimension door 3+Wis mod/day is great. Work with you GM to see if they will let you base it off Charisma instead as Horizon walker when written was intended more for rangers who are wis based and ninja came out after that. This would open up the option of the dimensional agility line of feats as being a great choice.
Horizon Walker offers some other interesting options as well that can add a bunch of flavor. With an investment in Combat Reflexes, Dodge and Mobility (feats that would compliment the build anyway) you could also get into Shadowdancer which has some interesting options for the build as well.
I also would second (third?) the suggestion to go Scout. If you go with Shadowdancer you wont even be giving up uncanny dodge... just delaying it. A lot.
One other suggestion... consider this a strong suggestion if you are going with a weapon finesse build is the Pirahna Strike feat. Its the Dex character's Power Attack.
| TaliaKirana |
I am appreciating the advice I get. Does the favored class bonus count for ninja?
Still trying to figure out what would be a nice trait for her. I may grab Weapon Finesse, but I don't think I want to mess with Two Weapon Fighting. I don't think I'd have enough feats, since I want to dip into the kitsune racial feats. (Fox Shape for sure, Swift Shapechange is very likely, Realistic Likeness is a maybe.)
| Guardianlord |
I am appreciating the advice I get. Does the favored class bonus count for ninja?
Still trying to figure out what would be a nice trait for her. I may grab Weapon Finesse, but I don't think I want to mess with Two Weapon Fighting. I don't think I'd have enough feats, since I want to dip into the kitsune racial feats. (Fox Shape for sure, Swift Shapechange is very likely, Realistic Likeness is a maybe.)
Yes, rogue favored class bonuses apply to Ninjas (and other archetypes), just be careful that the bonus applies to the class (It does for Kitsune).
Finesse is a good choice as your STR is likely to be very low compared to your DEX and the Ninja is not a Full BAB class, so any help with hitting is needed, it also makes the Ninja less MAD.
I would suggest talking with your GM and the party about what your role will be. Ninjas are limited in feats and equipment so specialization is often better than generalization (unlike fighters or sorcerers who can do it all), choose a role and become excellent at it.
With high CHA you can add a single swift action KI attack to any full round attack without the TWF penalties, but this does mean one less use of Vanish, so TWF depends on the game and the Party.
| XMorsX |
Beware of your attack bonus if you TWF. I would probably avoid it and instead use scimitar + Dervish Dance or just a single agile Wakizashi. Otherwise you may end up missing all the time against the tougher opponents. This way you will also have a free hand for wand or consumable usage. If you go with aa scimitar, take the trait blade of mercy and the enforcer feat for free intimidate chacks every time you attack with non-leathal damage.
The Scout archetype is almost a must-have.
Fox Shape is unneeded. Ypu will already have a great stealth and disguise modifier, and you can go invisible when you absolutely do not want to be tracked. From the other hand, Realistic Likeness and Vulpine Pounce (and Swift Kitsune Shapechanger as a result) are great racial feats you should definately consider. Realistic Likeness will also cover any potential use of fox shape for infiltration purposes.
If you are into multiclassing, 2 lvls of Paladin will give you smite evil 1/day and the much needed Cha to saves. Playing a lawful good ninja is not as hard as it sound too, all the ninjas were disciplined warriors. It will also give you proficiency with martial weapons, opening the way for using an agile sap + sap adept + sap master feats. This is the way for the bigger sneak attack DPR too. If you want to keep the eastern flavor, you can do this with a nunchaku too, but you will need an extra feat, Bludgeoner.
| Lune |
By Trait do you mean Feat? Because Weapon Finesse is a Feat, not a Trait.
For sneak attackers to remain viable in mid-late game it is recommended that they go two weapon fighting. This is because there will be several ways - especially with the build options suggested by all those above - to deliver sneak attacks on each and every attack. So, obviously, the more attacks the better. TWF by itself is great. Improved TWF is less so and Greater TWF can likely be left out as you will not likely be hitting with that attack anyway.
I should also mention that with a high Dex build like this that TWF dovetails nicely. Basically Str builds typically go with a two handed weapon and power attack and Dex builds typically go with two weapon fighting.
If you are not considering doing this then another option might be to pick up Crane Style (and improved unarmed strike) and go with one hand free. If you are considering this then dipping a level into Master of Many Styles Monk would be a good way to pick it up. It does lower your BAB by 1 point overall but what you gain in feats, saves and abilities may make up for it. If you go for one level, you may as well go for two. Also, depending on your stat array if you have a decent Int then Duelist may work well for this as well.
From a combat effectiveness standpoint, though, I would recommend either the TWF option or the Crane Style/free hand/Duelist approach.
| Lune |
Weird. XmorsX, whom I normally agree with I find I disagree with here. The highest DPR sneak attack builds all use TWF. His scimitar + dervish dance suggestion goes along with my crane style/duelist suggestion, though.
While his sap master suggestion is good that kinda pidgeon holes you into a single combat style where you are dependant on non-lethal precision sneak attack damage. All of which have several types of foes who are immune.
Paladin adding Cha to saves is really good. Thematically, though, I can definitely understand not taking it. Also, classically, ninjas were not the disciplined warriors of the time. That was the samurai. Samurai I can much more easily see being a paladin. Espionage, infiltration, assassination, etc. ... these are what ninja specialized in. They don't seem overly paladinlike, IMO. But, all that being said, sap master is one fairly effective way to go and paladin would bring a lot to a high Cha character. *shrug*
| kBro |
I have to agree with what's been said about Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting, and Sneak Attack. You want to be getting as many chances as possible to apply sneak attack, which means attacking as much as possible. Sure, Power Attack or Piranha Strike might give more damage, but the penalty from those will match TWF by level 6, and be worse at level 11. Sure, a single agile weapon might hit more and do good damage, but you're missing half your potential damage. Also, since you're a ninja, you've got invisibility on demand, which is a +2 to hit, canceling out the TWF penalty, and you're target flatfoot AC. Additionally, with the 18-20 crit range on Wakizashi, swinging as many times as possible means a pretty good chance to crit, especially if you make them Keen (granted you won't crit very hard, but an elemental burst enhancement would be nice, or you could get some critical feats).
Yes, in a straight fight, TWF will likely make you miss. But if you're trying to fight straight up without flanking, using invisibility, charging, or other ways to get sneak attack, you are doing it wrong. A ninja doesn't try to fight up front, he sneaks into a good position and eviscerates his target in a flurry of steel.
| Erik von Oseff |
kBro the Kitsune Trickster archetype doesn't work because it requires the replacement of Rogue class abilities that the Ninja doesn't get. Scout still works great...
As for your first two feats TaliaKirana, I recommend Realistic Likeness & Weapon Finesse. The order you take them based on how you expect to earn the XP for third level.
Mostly fighting go with Finesse first, mostly sneaky/talky Realistic will be more help.
Depending on the magnanimity of your GM Realistic Likeness with Sleeves of Many Garments ranges from look like any human to look like any Humanoid.
Either end of the spectrum the Sleeves are an excellent investment.
Pretty much everything else has been covered, so recap.
High Dex/Cha, Vanish Trick, Sleeves. Everything else to taste.
| kBro |
The ninja as an alternate class is an elaborate archetype of the rogue class. It replaces Trapfinding with Poison Use and replaces Trap Sense with No Trace. With this relation, you can take the Kitsune Trickster archetype by replacing Poison Use with Kitsune's Guile and replacing No Trace with Kitsune's Charm. You're effectively replacing the equivalent rogue class abilities in this way.
The same can be said for the Anti-paladin alternate class and Paladin archetypes, and the Samurai alternate class and Cavalier archetypes. As long as the alternate class has abilities that have a class equivalent, you can reasonably take an archetype.
Now, you wouldn't be able to take an archetype that swaps out Evasion on a ninja because the ninja class has no Evasion equivalent. But you can take an archetype that swaps out Trapfinding because the ninja's equivalent is Poison Use.
| Alexander Augunas Contributor |
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Personally, I prefer Vital Strike + Feint over Two-Weapon Fighting for rogues. Two-Weapon has better potential damage, but Vital Strike has better average damage because the rogue does not get any bonuses to its attack rolls from class features on top of being a Medium attack bonus class. If you go Vital Strike + Feint, you need Combat Expertise and Improved Feint, plus Vital Strike at 6th level. Grab Combat Expertise at 1st level, Weapon Finesse as your first rogue talent, and then by 3rd level you'll be set when you select Improved Feint. Greater Feint is an unnecessary feat, so all you'll rally be itching to take is Devastating Strike at some point and Improved Vital Strike when your base attack bonus reaches +11.
As others have said, you can combine Scout with the ninja class. At 4th level, this effectively allows you to sneak attack when you can't feint by charging. At 8th level, the archetype allows you to sneak attack whenever you have to move, charge, or when you can stand still and feint. You basically don't need allies to sneak attack anymore, which is a huge draw over Two-Weapon Fighting. This also means that the invisibility rogue talents are much less mandatory then they would otherwise be and since you won't be making full attacks all that often, you don't have to burn your ki every turn getting a free attack in. It's a different style of play that allows you to focus more of your resources to the more enjoyable aspects of the ninja mythos, like super-speed climbing or poison use.
Deadmanwalking
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The ninja as an alternate class is an elaborate archetype of the rogue class. It replaces Trapfinding with Poison Use and replaces Trap Sense with No Trace. With this relation, you can take the Kitsune Trickster archetype by replacing Poison Use with Kitsune's Guile and replacing No Trace with Kitsune's Charm. You're effectively replacing the equivalent rogue class abilities in this way.
To quote:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.
The same can be said for the Anti-paladin alternate class and Paladin archetypes, and the Samurai alternate class and Cavalier archetypes. As long as the alternate class has abilities that have a class equivalent, you can reasonably take an archetype.
This is true, they are just big archetypes...but as listed above, you can't take two archetypes that modify the same class feature (such as two that replace Trapfinding). So...no Ninja Knife Masters.
Now, you wouldn't be able to take an archetype that swaps out Evasion on a ninja because the ninja class has no Evasion equivalent. But you can take an archetype that swaps out Trapfinding because the ninja's equivalent is Poison Use.
Once again, this does not work.
| kBro |
The Ninja is like an archetype, but it is not an archetype. It's an alternate class, and a separate thing from the rogue. You could easily replace a Ninja's Poison Use and No Trace with Trapfinding and Trap Sense with a little house ruling, but this is because they are parallel features. You can apply any Rogue archetype to the Ninja so long as you can replace the appropriate features.
The features that Rogue Archetypes might change are :
- Trapfinding
- Evasion
- Trap Sense
- Uncanny Dodge
- Improved Uncanny Dodge
- altering Sneak Attack
- altering Rogue Talents
- altering class skills
- Master Strike (capstone)
Now, the only archetypes that replace evasion are the Smuggler and the Filtcher (hafling only), so these can't be taken by a Ninja as the Ninja does not have Evasion or an equivalent.
Any archetype that replaces Trapfinding and Trap Sense can by taken by a Ninja by having those abilities replace Poison Use and No Trace, because Poison Use and No Trace are equivalent and parallel to the Rogue's Trapfinding and Trap Sense.
Any archetype that replaces Uncanny Dodge can be taken by a Ninja.
Any archetype that alters Sneak Attack can be taken by a Ninja
Any archetype that alters Rogue Talent progression can be taken by a Ninja by replacing Ninja Tricks instead. This functions the same as using the Extra Rogue Talent feat for extra ninja tricks as a Ninja since there is no Extra Ninja Trick feat. The two features are equivalent and parallel.
Any archetype that alters class skills can be taken by the Ninja so long as it does not alter Knowledge skills, as the only difference in skills between the Ninja and Rogue is the Ninja has Kn. Nobility while the Rogue has Kn. Dungeoneering.
Any archetype that alters the capstone can be taken by the Ninja by replacing the Ninja's capstone.
You are correct that you cannot take multiple archetypes that modify the same class feature, so you can't take two archetypes that both modify Trapfinding. However, the Ninja is not an archetype. It is an alternate class, and therefore can be used with any archetype that replaces equivalent and/or parallel class features.
Let me use an analogy : Let the Rogue be a Pickup Truck and the Ninja an SUV, where both vehicles are from the same manufacturer, in the same weight class, and use the same frame, suspension, drivetrain, and other core components (sneak attack, bab, saves, skills, general progression). One has an open bed while the other an enclosed trunk (Evasion vs Ki), so some aftermarket parts (archetypes) will work on one but not the other. Other parts of the vehicles are one in the same (uncanny dodge), and work with aftermarket parts for both. Some exterior styling might be different (trapfinding vs poison use), but the exterior panels bolt onto the same frame and can be interchanged easily or replaced by something aftermarket. Say you really want to drive the SUV since it has most of what you want, but you like the styling of the an aftermarket front end for the Pickup better (archetype that replaces trapfinding/trapsense). Because the two vehicles have the same chassis you can use the aftermarket part by replacing the equivalent parts on the SUV (poisonuse/notrace) without any problems, as they bolt on to the chassis in the same way.
Deadmanwalking
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The Ninja is like an archetype, but it is not an archetype. It's an alternate class, and a separate thing from the rogue. You could easily replace a Ninja's Poison Use and No Trace with Trapfinding and Trap Sense with a little house ruling, but this is because they are parallel features. You can apply any Rogue archetype to the Ninja so long as you can replace the appropriate features.
Okay, here's the thing, mechanically, there are two ways this can work:
#1: Ninja is basically an archetype, and thus follows the rules for one (at least a couple of devs, plus logic say this is the case).
#2: Ninja is an entirely new class, for archetype purposes.
In neither case does what you're talking about work, due to the paragraph I cite above in the case of #1, and because it can't use Rogue Archetypes at all in the case of #2.
Can you House Rule it to work? Yes, easily. Does that mean it works that way? No, it means you made a House Rule...and suggesting builds that rely on house rules without noting that that's what you're doing is bad policy, since you're effectively telling people the game works a different way from how it really does.
| Aerotan |
I'd say take the tail feats till you get a second level spell then dip one level of sorcerer, then go arcane trickster
Can spell-likes qualify you for PrC? Otherwise there are probably better things to use feats on, honestly. Vulpine Pounce springs to mind, as well as dodge, weapon finesse, critical focus, or anything to improve sneak attacking or feinting. Ninja's bread and butter is in the Sneak Attack, anything to make that easier or more dangerous is nice.
Though the jumping tricks are worth looking at. With any kind of decent Acrobatics rank and Dex modifier, it'll give a whole new meaning to 'Ain't no mountain high enough...".