Hey all,
DM is allowing me to take Winter Witch archetype along with Scarred Witch Doctor if I want, ruling that since winter witch restricts familiar choices and scarred witch replaces familiar, that they don't conflict with one another as much as some archetypes. He has also ruled that I may take the scarred witch doctor archetype as a human without the Racial Heritage (orc) feat tax. A very generous DM indeed.
Knowing the latter was available already, I stat'd out a witch with the Infernal (Pit-touched) eldritch heritage feats. We will be starting at level 9, so I won’t get the inherent con increase until level 11, but will have a robe of arcane heritage to bump up the inerent con bonus quickly.
However, now that I know I can take winter witch as well, I'm considering doing that with the Rime metamagic feat and frozen caress hex.
The problem is that both builds are very feat starved. In order to get the hexes I want (misfortune, cackle, evil eye, prehensile hair), if I go the winter witch route I'll need to spend two feats on extra hexes (to replace the one I'd lose and pick up frozen caress) and a feat on Rime.
I'm finding that my options are to go straight Scarred Witch Doctor with Pit-touched eldritch heritage feat chain for inherent con bonuses (probably up to a max of +4 in this campaign) or Scarred-Winter Witch with Rime and frozen caress, but no inherent bonuses to con.
Thoughts on which way to go?
25 point buy, starting lvl 9, average wealth by level, I'll be taking two item crafting feats (arms and armor, wondrous item) at minimum to make our starting gold go further. It's a very melee heavy party [Battle/buff cleric, melee paladin, melee rogue, possibly a druid (not sure if melee or caster), and either a barbarian or blaster sorc] which is why prehensile hair is a must. The party is pretty new to the system, so I am focusing on a heavy debuffer to make them look better in combat. Slumber hex is forbidden. Agony hex may be as well. Both of which I'm okay with, as I plan on getting Retribution as my first major hex (again to make the party look better).
Personally, I think Pit-touched is overkill for a build like this, especially if you're not focusing on slumber and other instakill type hexes/spells.
Winter witch archetype as well as it's PrC are great for debuffing. With Rime spell and prehensile hair to deliver touch attacks, you'll be powering down enemies without need for saves. Combined with the scarred witch doctor archetype, you'll have great health to back it up.
You really do need all feats available for extra hexes and rime spell if you go this route. I think starting with a 20 Con and eventually getting +4 or +6 belt as well as level stat boosts along the way will be plenty. If you were going with fight ending enchantments and other save or lose spells, I'd understand wanting to get those DCs up high as possible. I don't think that's necessary for what you want to do.
Thank you for the very quick and insightful response. I'm definitely leaning towards doing the Scarred-Winter Witch build (because when will i ever get to mix those two again?). What is holding me back is that an inherent con bonus affects not only my spell DC's, but my hex DC's and my prehensile hair attacks (i.e. my ability to touch the target), as well as more HP and higher fort. The winter witch trick only applies to cold descriptor spells or touch spells I can give the cold descriptor.
I love the idea of a Rime Bestow Curse (cold) for a 4th level spell as a swift and standard action. But is it worth it when I could have +2 to the DC of evil eye, misfortune, bestow curse, and every other spell? Also, I was planning on taking the Time patron so I can haste my melee heavy party when we are are up against large groups. With Winter Witch, that patron is off-limits.
Also, metagame-wise, I know there will be a white dragon fight in this character's future. So on the one hand, resist cold 10 is nice, but in the other, not being able to cast any fire spells hurts quite a bit.
Additionally, the eldritch heritage route does give access to a no save, no SR, touch attack shaken ability a few times per day, which might be helpful.
As you can see, I'm having a tough time deciding.
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Well one nice thing about the winter witch PrC is that you eventually can overcome cold immunity. It doesn't happen until level 13, so it may be past the point of relevance depending on when you fight the dragon.
You might think only doing half damage to a cold immune creature is a waste, but when you consider Rime spell and the Numbing chill hex, you really don't care so much about the damage to the creature. You just need to get through that immunity so that your debuffs will stick.
Let me just give you an example of the kind of debuffing you can do with a single level one spell.
Take the numbing chill hex from the winter witch PrC:
Numbing Chill (Su): Whenever the winter witch casts a spell that deals cold damage, she can imbue the spell with a debilitating eldritch chill as a swift action. She chooses one of the spell’s targets or a creature within the spell effect. If that creature takes cold damage from the spell, it must also succeed at a Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of Dexterity damage and be staggered for 1 round. The creature need only make this saving throw once per spell, even if the spell deals damage multiple times. If the target saves successfully, it is immune to this hex for 1 day. This is a cold effect.
Consider taking Magical lineage: Frostbite as your trait for a really good touch spell which carries its own debuff. This lets you apply Rime at no cost for that spell.
Now you have a 1st level spell that gives you touch attacks each one doing 1d6 + CL damage + entangle ( –2 attack, –4 Dex) + fatigue ( –2 Str and Dex) + fort save at your hex DC or take 1d4 Dex damage + staggered. You can deliver this multiple times through touches, attacks or even combat maneuvers since any kind of touch will deliver the charges.
If you have prehensile hair as your only natural attack you can be doing 1d3 + 1.5 x Con bonus damage, plus delivering all these debuffs from 10 feet out.
Your melee party will love you as now anything you touch is anywhere from -3 to -5 AC, -3 to attack rolls, -1 damage, and can only make one attack per round if they fail the numbing chill fort save.
After that first touch you can either continue attacking with your hair, hex without losing the remaining spell charges, or drop the frostbite and cast whatever you want.
Now a regular witch can do most of that minus the numbing chill staggered effect, but not to cold immune creatures. You also get lots of nifty little other perks for the class.
All that said, winter witch is more for the flavor than anything else. My point isn't that it's better than the alternative. Getting that +2 to all DCs is really solid. I'm merely pointing out that the winter witch can be very effective, which is not common for a PrC.
I am going to bring this up because I am making a PFS character in which I need some help using a Human Winter Witch.
Need opinions on a build and a familiar.
Goal: Winter Witch 5/Winter Witch 7
Stats:
Str - 7 (why not)
Dex - 14
Con - 14
Int - 20
Wis - 11
Cha - 7 (why not)
Feats:
Human: Extra Hex: Evil Eye
1 - Elemental Focus: Cold
3 - Elemental Focus: Cold
5 - Rime Spell
7 - Improved Initiative/Improved Familiar/Toughness
9 - Improved Initiative/Improved Familiar/Toughness
11 - Extra Hex: Numbing Touch
This should give me the following Hexes:
1 - Slumber/Evil Eye
2 - Cackle
6 - Misfortune
8 - Fly
10 - Icy Tomb
11 - Numbing Touch
Traits: Reactionary? Magical Lineage: Snowball? Magical Knack?
I dont know what I would pick for a familiar though. Maybe a Bat?
I could use some suggestions on what order I should take feats, and if there are any good ones that I am missing. I can try to find a place for Accursed Hex I guess too. Traits?
Anyone? >_>
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I'd suggest Spell Focus (evocation) and Greater Spell Focus (evocation) if you're going for the Elemental Focus / Greater Elemental Focus Feats, as they all stack on applicable spells for a whopping +4 on your spell DCs. (Doesn't have to be evocation, but that's where most 'cold' spells are, I believe).
As a single target spell which needs both an attack roll and allows a save Snowball is kind of rubbish. If you're going for the Rime Spell Feat (and why not? It's awesome) you'd be better off taking Magical Lineage (Flurry of Snowballs) which at least hits a cone's worth of enemies (or applying it to a higher level spell, one which both hits an area and scales damage, instead).
I'm not sure if it's PFS compatible or not, but if the Irrisen Icemage Feat is allowed, it may be worth starting off as a Sorcerer (only a Sorcerer can take the Feat, and only at 1st level) of the Rime-Blooded bloodline: the bloodline arcana works for all your spells, even if you switch to a different class (like Witch) for the rest of your levels, and the Feat is just brilliant for cold-based casters (+1 caster level to your cold spells at the expense of -1 caster level to your non-cold energy spells, but 3x per day you can alter a spell to inflict cold damage instead of its normal damage and the Feat's caster level bonus then applies to that spell too).
With the Irrisen Icemage and Rime Spell Feats at level 1, you could take Magical Lineage (burning hands) and be firing off area effect entangles from day 1... even if you switch to Witch after that, you Sorcerer spell slots will always be useful for at least hampering the enemy.
If you're plannning on any type of 'blasting' magic then the Spell Specialization Feat is great too (+2 to caster level with one spell, and you get to switch the chosen spell every even caster level as well).
For a familiar I'd take a weasel and call it a mink... but that's just me...
All very good suggestions, thanks!
As a single target spell which needs both an attack roll and allows a save Snowball is kind of rubbish. If you're going for the Rime Spell Feat (and why not? It's awesome) you'd be better off taking Magical Lineage (Flurry of Snowballs) which at least hits a cone's worth of enemies (or applying it to a higher level spell, one which both hits an area and scales damage, instead).
Snowball is widely regarded as too powerful for first level. Why? Because it does the exact same damage as Shocking Grasp, while also being ranged touch, and also having a save for a powerful debuff.
Snowball is the best single target damage spell of the level, barring resistances/immunities. Hell, it's even arguably better than second level single target spells because it comes with a debuff. When you get second level spells at 3rd level, it deals 3d6 points of damage + staggered opposed to Scorching Rays 4d6 + nothing damage or Acid Arrows 2d4.
So yea, Snowball is not 'kind of rubbish'.
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Sorry, I should have worded that better: Snowball's rubbish as something to bother enhancing with rime spell because it's single-target.
Most single-target damage spells are 'rubbish' really, although the rays at least are rays and get to count as weapons for Feat purposes and stuff; but then only really worth it if you're aiming to be a ray-specialist. Shocking Grasp's only saving grace is that it's a melee touch - so you can keep on swinging until it hits; ranged touch are worse in the fact you can waste the things. Better for a Magus, of course, with a higher BAB to start and the whole Spellstrike critical threat range and stuff (but then you need to be casting melee touch for that anyway).
I'd debate whether a 1 round staggered effect is 'a powerful debuff' - the target loses 1 move action... that's it. A Rime-blooded Sorcerer casting a Ray of Frost cantrip inflicts a slowed effect for 1 round on a failed save (only 1 DC less than Snowball too), and that's staggered plus an additional -1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves, and reduces the target to half movement (rounded down)... and can fire that puppy off all day, every day.
YMMV, of course, but unless you've got 1st level spells to burn I'd not be going with Snowball (or Shocking Grasp for that matter, just to be clear).
Sorry, I should have worded that better: Snowball's rubbish as something to bother enhancing with rime spell because it's single-target.
Most single-target damage spells are 'rubbish' really, although the rays at least are rays and get to count as weapons for Feat purposes and stuff; but then only really worth it if you're aiming to be a ray-specialist. Shocking Grasp's only saving grace is that it's a melee touch - so you can keep on swinging until it hits; ranged touch are worse in the fact you can waste the things. Better for a Magus, of course, with a higher BAB to start and the whole Spellstrike critical threat range and stuff (but then you need to be casting melee touch for that anyway).
I'd debate whether a 1 round staggered effect is 'a powerful debuff' - the target loses 1 move action... that's it. A Rime-blooded Sorcerer casting a Ray of Frost cantrip inflicts a slowed effect for 1 round on a failed save (only 1 DC less than Snowball too), and that's staggered plus an additional -1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves, and reduces the target to half movement (rounded down)... and can fire that puppy off all day, every day.
YMMV, of course, but unless you've got 1st level spells to burn I'd not be going with Snowball (or Shocking Grasp for that matter, just to be clear).
Staggered is a powerful condition to inflict because it denies a lot more than just a move action.
A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A staggered creature can still take free, swift, and immediate actions. A creature with nonlethal damage exactly equal to its current hit points gains the staggered condition.
So if you stagger them, they are denied full attacks and can't do full-round actions. Stagger denies enemies actions, and since the action economy is so important to the game, staggering someone is quite good, even if it's just for 1 round. 1 round of stagger can allow for the party martial to unleash a torrent of damage while receiving very little in return from an enemy.
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Sorry, I should have worded that better: Snowball's rubbish as something to bother enhancing with rime spell because it's single-target.
Most single-target damage spells are 'rubbish' really, although the rays at least are rays and get to count as weapons for Feat purposes and stuff; but then only really worth it if you're aiming to be a ray-specialist. Shocking Grasp's only saving grace is that it's a melee touch - so you can keep on swinging until it hits; ranged touch are worse in the fact you can waste the things. Better for a Magus, of course, with a higher BAB to start and the whole Spellstrike critical threat range and stuff (but then you need to be casting melee touch for that anyway).
I'd debate whether a 1 round staggered effect is 'a powerful debuff' - the target loses 1 move action... that's it. A Rime-blooded Sorcerer casting a Ray of Frost cantrip inflicts a slowed effect for 1 round on a failed save (only 1 DC less than Snowball too), and that's staggered plus an additional -1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves, and reduces the target to half movement (rounded down)... and can fire that puppy off all day, every day.
YMMV, of course, but unless you've got 1st level spells to burn I'd not be going with Snowball (or Shocking Grasp for that matter, just to be clear).
Uh, being a touch attack is rarely a "saving grace" for an offensive spell, since most casters tend to try an avoid getting into melee range with their opponents who probably hit a lot harder--trading 1d6/level damage with someone swinging a two-handed weapon, or who is going to full-attack you is almost never a good idea, while ranged touch attacks allow you to maintain some distance. I'd say that, depending on how you want to look at things, and what you value, they're about even once you account for all the pros and cons on both sides.
Snowball is pretty amazing. How many level 1 spells allow you to impose a significant debuff at range without a HD cap? How many 2nd level spells allow you to do that AND deal damage at the same time? Rime Spell on Snowball is a pretty strong 2nd level spell, allowing a ranged touch attack to Entangle for a round, along with the chance of also staggering your target. Restrict a target to either a single attack, or a single move action at half speed, along with penalties to Dex (AC), to-hit, and making spellcasting difficult?
I think you're undervaluing Staggered. Forcing someone to choose between moving or attacking or casting a spell is a pretty good status effect. Disallowing full attacks is as well. Now, sure, if your target has pounce and a full attack, they could still use that if not too far away, but that combo isn't very common, especially at lower levels. And if you add Rime Spell, even that option is removed, since Entangled prevents charging. Staggered amounts to giving your side an extra full attack action, or preventing an attack, or allowing your team to get in better positions.
It's not the BEST debuff, but, again, we're looking at a level 1 spell here. How much do you want? Sleep is good, until you gain a few levels, and may not even be useful against a tough boss at level 1, and there are a lot of creatures that are immune to sleep and/or enchantments. At level 2 you have some better single target control options, but how many are as universally applicable? I wouldn't build a whole character around Snowball, but it's a fantastic spell to use early on, and a decent spell to have in reserve at later levels.
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Staggered for one round is a very minor debuff: it's like tripping someone without the benefit of knocking them prone or making them trigger an AoO: you just get the bit where they waste 1 move action (getting up in the case of the trip). Throwing a bolas at someone would give the superior trip debuff: even with a -4 non-proficiency it shouldn't be too hard to a high-Dex caster to trip a low enemy with one... and it's reusable, and doesn't waste one of your precious two spells per day to do...
A net is an even easier option: -4 non-proficiency but on a ranged touch attack, and the debuff is again superior as they suffer ongoing penalties until they waste a full-round action to get out of the thing.
If you're brewing your own alchemicals (at 1/3rd cost!) then chucking splash weapons and tanglefoot bags is going to net you more than a 1d6 damage + loss of one move action (which is what it amounts to, no matter how you want to dress it up) for the cost of one of your two spells.
Now, if you can stagger the enemy for no cost to you (such as with Staggering Critical) it's, of course, all win. But taking 1 move action off one target... there are many better things you can use a first level spell slot for (how about Grease? Potentially trip - a superior debuff - 4 enemies per casting, and lock down the area it's cast on too...).
YMMV, of course... IMHO, etc, etc, et al.