Crossbow rogue


Advice

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The Exchange

Looking for feats for a rogue using a crossbow

Any ideas?


....rapid reload (light crossbow or hand crossbow) seems rather obvious for a start, since that is what you need in order to reload as a free action.

After that, you mostly just need ranged feats. A good place to find the important ones all collected in one spot would be to look at the archery combat style bonus feats for rangers.

As a completely random note due to some weird facts I know: Medieval beekeepers were licensed to carry around crossbows because they often had to fight off bears... for obvious reasons. I hope that helps make up for the fact that my advice goes little beyond the obvious.


Rapid Reload

Crossbow Mastery

Point Blank Shot

Rapid Shot

Prone Shooter

Weapon Focus (Crossbow)

Focused Shot

Precise Shot

Sniper Shot

Far Shot

I wouldn't pick them up in the order I listed, obviously you can't because of prerequisites. But these are among some of the better Crossbow feats. If I think of anymore, I'll post them later.

Grand Lodge

Have you considered a Trapper/Guide Ranger instead?

There is also the ACG Slayer as well.

What do you want from Rogue?


Well since somebody wanted some hate though I'll provide.

Rogues aren't very good in combat, this is particularly true in ranged combat because of the awkwardness of stealth and ranged sneak attacks. Crossbows aren't very good in combat(they're inferior to bows in pretty much all circumstances), this character won't be good in combat regardless of the feats you pick so I'd advise you to use the feats on something else or go Rogue 1/Gunslinger 5 so you can at least get dex to damage and a better weapon.

Of course if you're the DM and this is a theme character please refer to the above posters.


I would go with the two weapon fighting route, or at least consider it. Crossbows do suck when compared to bows, but you can dual wield them and you can't dual wield bows. It's like the only thing they've got IMO that keeps them on par with bows. Course you're a feat starved class, so you may want to shy away from two weapon fighting.


Deadly Aim will be crucial, but I'd recommend you wait until around fourth level. By then, you should have around a +8 or +9, so Deadly Aim won't hurt at all.

(Assuming an 18 Dexterity, Combat Rogue being used to get something like Weapon Focus, and Point Blank Shot)


This is very quickly degrading into something it doesn't need to. Let's relax a little bit.

I listed most of the feats, that's all he asked for.

I said I may have missed some, and as gnomersy pointed out, I did. Deadly Aim. Passed that, I can't think of any others.

If he wants more suggestions or tips about his character, let him ask.

He hasn't posted anything except for his original post, which could mean that I gave him what he was looking for, and he's done with this thread.


Domestichauscat wrote:
I would go with the two weapon fighting route, or at least consider it. Crossbows do suck when compared to bows, but you can dual wield them and you can't dual wield bows. It's like the only thing they've got IMO that keeps them on par with bows. Course you're a feat starved class, so you may want to shy away from two weapon fighting.

Yeah, covering TWF and the ranged feats is going to be very hard for the rogue to pull off. Not to mention that the rogue has a bit of a hitting problem, so taking rapid shot, TWF, and deadly aim penalties might be a bit too much.


It's worth noting that it can be difficult to Sneak Attack bonus damage as a ranged Rogue. You'll need something like Sniper Goggles to extend Sneak Attack range beyond 30 feet, and a method to reliably trigger Sneak Attacks. One way to do this is the Scout Archetype, who get sneak attacks if they move at least 10 feet at level 8. Alternatively you could try something like playing a tiefling and using a combination of the racial Darkness SLA and darkvision to gain sneak attacks (I think this works).


Corvino wrote:
It's worth noting that it can be difficult to Sneak Attack bonus damage as a ranged Rogue. You'll need something like Sniper Goggles to extend Sneak Attack range beyond 30 feet, and a method to reliably trigger Sneak Attacks. One way to do this is the Scout Archetype, who get sneak attacks if they move at least 10 feet at level 8. Alternatively you could try something like playing a tiefling and using a combination of the racial Darkness SLA and darkvision to gain sneak attacks (I think this works).

Sniper Shot should take care of that.


Corvino wrote:
It's worth noting that it can be difficult to Sneak Attack bonus damage as a ranged Rogue. You'll need something like Sniper Goggles to extend Sneak Attack range beyond 30 feet, and a method to reliably trigger Sneak Attacks. One way to do this is the Scout Archetype, who get sneak attacks if they move at least 10 feet at level 8. Alternatively you could try something like playing a tiefling and using a combination of the racial Darkness SLA and darkvision to gain sneak attacks (I think this works).

The darkness thing does assuming the target can't see you in the dark(which is kind of common) which I think is why the normal suggestion involved smoke and smoke vision using the fire race whatever they were called instead of darkness but we don't know the limits on the character so it's possible neither of those races are available.

Edit: @ Sin my only issue with Sniper Shot is it's a full round action which means you need the method to sneak attack to reset itself freely without your intervention(Greater Invis., pre-set darkness sphere/smoke cloud etc.) because you can't move for scout and you can't stealth in the open.


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An Ifrit with Firesight for the fog/smoke concealment? That would work, as would a pair of Fog-Cutting goggles for 8000gp.


Corvino wrote:
An Ifrit with Firesight for the fog/smoke concealment? That would work, as would a pair of Fog-Cutting goggles for 8000gp.

Thanks totally forgot they were called Ifrits XD.


gnomersy wrote:
Corvino wrote:
It's worth noting that it can be difficult to Sneak Attack bonus damage as a ranged Rogue. You'll need something like Sniper Goggles to extend Sneak Attack range beyond 30 feet, and a method to reliably trigger Sneak Attacks. One way to do this is the Scout Archetype, who get sneak attacks if they move at least 10 feet at level 8. Alternatively you could try something like playing a tiefling and using a combination of the racial Darkness SLA and darkvision to gain sneak attacks (I think this works).

The darkness thing does assuming the target can't see you in the dark(which is kind of common) which I think is why the normal suggestion involved smoke and smoke vision using the fire race whatever they were called instead of darkness but we don't know the limits on the character so it's possible neither of those races are available.

Edit: @ Sin my only issue with Sniper Shot is it's a full round action which means you need the method to sneak attack to reset itself freely without your intervention(Greater Invis., pre-set darkness sphere/smoke cloud etc.) because you can't move for scout and you can't stealth in the open.

Ah, but you can. Observe. (it is a little limited, but can be optimized)

Terrain Mastery

Hide in Plain Sight


Sindalla wrote:

Ah, but you can. Observe. (it is a little limited, but can be optimized)

Terrain Mastery

Hide in Plain Sight

If your build only comes online at level 10 and in certain terrain I'd say it's a far cry from ideal unless you're starting at level 10ish.

Of course there's also the fact that at level 10 you're giving up secondary attacks to get that sneak attack where as a build using smokesticks and Firesight/goggles doesn't. Sure the secondary isn't a high chance to hit but even a second attack at 25% percent chance to hit is a big difference in your average damage.

Personally if my build doesn't make me feel like I'm playing the character the way I want by level 3-5 I consider it a failure but YMMV.


gnomersy wrote:
Sindalla wrote:

Ah, but you can. Observe. (it is a little limited, but can be optimized)

Terrain Mastery

Hide in Plain Sight

If your build only comes online at level 10 and in certain terrain I'd say it's a far cry from ideal unless you're starting at level 10ish.

Of course there's also the fact that at level 10 you're giving up secondary attacks to get that sneak attack where as a build using smokesticks and Firesight/goggles doesn't. Sure the secondary isn't a high chance to hit but even a second attack at 25% percent chance to hit is a big difference in your average damage.

Personally if my build doesn't make me feel like I'm playing the character the way I want by level 3-5 I consider it a failure but YMMV.

I've got a cavalier who's ability I really want doesn't come in until level 8. At least he's a decent combatant without it. Rogue's just don't really measure up at any point... Even level 20, most thing's Fort saves at that point are stupid high.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Have you considered a Trapper/Guide Ranger instead?

There is also the ACG Slayer as well.

What do you want from Rogue?

Not sure I would call this anti-rogue, but it does seem to be leading to a "these other classes do it better" to discourage playing a rogue. Could care less if it was just saying what it looks like.


It almost seems we're going to go back to the alternating brilliance and self-loathing of the "Ladies and Gentlemen, let's make the Rogue work" thread.

1) Find a way to reliably sneak attack
2) Avoid dying
3) ???
4) Profit

Shadow Lodge

I once had the idea for a rogue who would Shot On The Run crossbows while walking from cover to cover. I'd have dipped him into either fighter or ranger, and it would still be very dependent upon the terrain.

(Think like the Bond film intro scene, only he keeps walking after he fires)

Another feat that could be handy would be Opening Volley (If you hit with a ranged attack, you get +4 to hit on your next melee attack before the end of your next turn), from Ultimate Combat.

It works with a heavy crossbow to be potentially more damaging, and if you don't plan on getting Rapid Reload, you'll usually only fire it once anyway; with a hand crossbow, you can conceal it easily and hang the sneak attack off it in the surprise round, then close in with your team.

Of course, it's a situational thing, and frustrating when that opening volley misses, but it's handy when you want to make a surprise attack without over-extending yourself.


The Shifty Mongoose wrote:

I once had the idea for a rogue who would Shot On The Run crossbows while walking from cover to cover. I'd have dipped him into either fighter or ranger, and it would still be very dependent upon the terrain.

(Think like the Bond film intro scene, only he keeps walking after he fires)

Another feat that could be handy would be Opening Volley (If you hit with a ranged attack, you get +4 to hit on your next melee attack before the end of your next turn), from Ultimate Combat.

It works with a heavy crossbow to be potentially more damaging, and if you don't plan on getting Rapid Reload, you'll usually only fire it once anyway; with a hand crossbow, you can conceal it easily and hang the sneak attack off it in the surprise round, then close in with your team.

Of course, it's a situational thing, and frustrating when that opening volley misses, but it's handy when you want to make a surprise attack without over-extending yourself.

I wish there was more synergy between abilities in this game.

I like Opening Volley but the game tends not to support dipping in and out of the front line very much and it would still be done better with a short bow because then you don't need to worry about reloading or any of that junk. +4 to hit is nice but since it only works on 1 attack it's only okay instead of awesome. Decent synergy with Scout but not too hot on the Rogue because of the general lack of feats.

The Exchange

Soooo... nice to see you're all getting along. Thanks for feat advice on second post.


Kalax the Barbarian wrote:
Soooo... nice to see you're all getting along. Thanks for feat advice on second post.

Lol, you're welcome.

Grand Lodge

Well, x2 Fiend Sight, and a Wand of Deeper Darkness will do it too.


Not to jump on the anti-rogue bandwagon but Alchemist will let grow a third arm for reloading so you can TWF with your crossbows. Vivisectionist archtype lets you keep sneak attack. Three or four levels of Fighter (Weapon Master) for bonus feats and weapon training. Not as many skill points as a rogue but extracts can more than make up for it and alchemists gets a lot of the classis rogue skills as class skills. Could make for a very roguish character even if you didn't have Rogue on your character sheet.


Normally when someone ask for a advice about rogues I give advices about rogues. I know rogues is not the strongest class, but that do not matter in most games.

However, in this case, I can only see frustrations with this crossbow rogues. Crossbows are bad, ranged rogeus are hard, they just do not mix togheter.

If you really go this way, I woudl advice 2 levels of fighters for those two extra feats.


I like Impact Critical Shot with a crossbow. Would work pretty well with TWF crossbows.

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