Hmm - I would advise you to look into the Dragon Disciple Prestige class (I've heard 4 levels are enough to get most of the goodies) and nab the Eldritch Heritage feats to pick up one of the bloodlines that gives an Inherent bonus to Strength.
If you go for a monk dip, consider the Sohei archetype that gives proficiency with all martial weapons. This gives you the ability to pick up a greatsword or a longbow when you fancy, as well as allows you to enter Eldritch Knight if fancy strikes you!
On that topic, manufactured weapons are typically stronger then natural in almost every case (- but consider Beast Shape II for the access to Pounce). This is since Natural (and by extension, Improved Unarmed Strike) is very costly to enchant. However, on low levels, Claws are actually pretty powerful since you get two attacks! (ie, High levels = Manufactured weapons are strongest, Low levels = Claws are almost as strong, if not stronger then real weapons. Improved unarmed strike isn't really useful for pure damage.)
For gear, I would really recommend that you picked up a Lesser Rod of Extended Spell. That way you can have Mage Armour & False Life and the like up so much longer, which will help if you get into unforeseen action!
Defensive spells with longer durations are your friend. It is typically not a good use of your turn to just buff yourself, but spells like Shield, Protection from Arrows and Blur have semi-long durations and can usually be raised in advance.
I've haven't actually played this kind of character, so take this all with a grain of salt and good luck!
1) A dip of monk is basically never worth it. More importantly, in my honest opinion, dips are never worth it unless you absolutely must do so in order to get requirements for a prestige class. Pathfinder RPG is played optimally with full-progression characters. It's really as simple as that.
2) This depends entirely on your character build. An interesting thing to note though, is that if you use a lot of touch spells, you can trigger those spells through unarmed strikes rather than just the touch to deliver them. It might be worth taking the feat. The Aberrant bloodline has Unarmed Strike in its list of bonus feats, fyi.
3) This also depends on your build. If the damage output is reliant on Strength and that's what you're after, then I'd advise you play a monk.
4) In the case of a Draconic or Abyssal bloodline sorcerer, yes, claws are better since they improve as you level up. Unarmed Strike is only better if you play a full monk. The big downside of claws is that you cannot use them without limit.
5) Not sure what this question is supposed to be about? You should be able to cast while in dragon form. If your GM doesn't allow it, then it really depends on what you're after? I am inclined to say that casting spells is better for winning the game, but if you want to be a badass by casting form of the dragon while having lots of strength then by all means do it.
All in all, what I gather from your question you're trying to build a sorcerer with the highest strength and melee damage output possible. I think Sorcerer (draconic bloodline) into Dragon Disciple is your best bet. I encourage you to play a Half-Orc since they get a lot of stuff that helps you (they can put a +2 into Strength, get proficiency in big badass weapons and get a +2 on Intimidate which works perfectly for a Cha-based class going into melee, especially if you take the following feats: Intimidating Prowess, Weapon Focus(Claw) and Dazzling Display)
I think the Monk level can be worth it 100%, but only for a few specific cases. Sohei 1/ Tattooed Sorcerer 1/ Eldritch Knight 10/ Bloodmage 8 should be competitive with Sorcerer 20. Monk 1/ Wildblooded Sorcerer (Empyreal) 19 should also be competitive with Sorcerer 20. I also think playing a Human with Focused Study and taking the Eldritch Heritage line over and over and grabbing spells known FCB is a good idea, so is a Half-Elf with Paragon Surge instead of 2 extra Skill Focus feats.
About natural attacks, they are kinda useful to you, but you are not a Druid, Ranger or Barbarian. You are gonna have to focus on polymorphing or just accept what you can get and focus on unarmed strikes or weapon attacks. But you aren't all that good at polymorphing compared to a Druid, because you can either polymorph or cast not both. I would make a Druid if you want crazy natural attacks or an Eldritch Knight if you want to Unarmed Strike -0, -5, -10, Claw -2, -2 Bite -2. I wouldn't make a Sorcerer who was all about polymorphing, they have the best spell list in the game, why do something that prevents you from accessing it?
Just how much of a sorcerer are you really wanting to be? In order to make the build truly effective, you'll need some classes that have fast BAB progression. Full casters have the worst.
Download this.
Look at the Bloodrager. Technically a sorcerer. Can also take the draconic bloodline, and last I checked, it can qualify for the Dragon Disciple prestige class which will give you some of the best strength boosts, and it has a fast BAB progression.
Or, check out the Abyssal bloodline, gives you a +14 strength while raging.
I wouldn't make a Sorcerer who was all about polymorphing, they have the best spell list in the game, why do something that prevents you from accessing it?
Lizardman from alter self has 3 primary natural attacks and you can still cast spells. Gargoyle from monstrous physique gets you four and you can still cast spells. Form of the Dragon gets you 5, and you can still cast spells. It's fairly easy for a polymorph focused sorcerer to still have access to his spells while polymorphed.
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Stone Fist. Who needs level dips when you have this spell?
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I think the Monk level can be worth it 100%, but only for a few specific cases. Sohei 1/ Tattooed Sorcerer 1/ Eldritch Knight 10/ Bloodmage 8 should be competitive with Sorcerer 20. Monk 1/ Wildblooded Sorcerer (Empyreal) 19 should also be competitive with Sorcerer 20. I also think playing a Human with Focused Study and taking the Eldritch Heritage line over and over and grabbing spells known FCB is a good idea, so is a Half-Elf with Paragon Surge instead of 2 extra Skill Focus feats.A two level dip into Sensei monk from the Empyreal sorcerer would be well worth it imho to get wisdom to attack. I am doing something similar and it has worked out pretty good.
you could also accomplish this with an, admittedly less effective at melee, zen archer 3 level dip.
i melee sorcerer is great with dragon disciple, and hell knight dip. but you may not want to play that kind of character.
if you wanted to play a solid sorcerer without any dips play a transmute specialist. im trying to get this to work as a personal challenge, but its sucks so bad until i gain access to the better polymorph spells. one of those, just bend over and bear it until it gets to level 6+ then it gets amazing.
i would suggest that you play a more humanoid character and focus on a 2 handed weapon. i went with 6 sorcerer for Monstrous Physique I then it got good. i went with orc for the bit and falcata proficiency, my character is going to focus on monsterous physique, undead anatomy, and dragon form (im assuming dragons can hold weapons?) to maximize my damage ability. only issue is that even with a nat 18 con ,yeah i stacked the heck out of it, and toughness im still lacking bigtime in HP.
it was a good experiment, but it is a terrible character outside of its flavor.
What kind of stats does your character have? Rolled? 10/15/20/25 point buy?
This might be a big deal to you, because when you specifically build a sorcerer in a way it is not usually built, you may find you need some more high ability scores because you're going into melee.
If you're going for the dragon disciple route, than I recommend upping your Str, Dex and Con as much as you can, and have a bit lower Cha than usual (probably at least Con, and either Str or Dex). And always take +1 hp as your favored class bonus for all your sorcerer levels. It's also probably a good idea to consider taking the Toughness/Dodge/Mobility/Combat Casting feats.
Since you'll have a lower Cha to compensate for having higher physical stats, you should try to focus on spells that don't rely on high Cha like spells that don't have saves... such as buffs, polymorphs, and touch attacks.
I'm absolutely not saying this can't be done otherwise, btw. The boys here have provided some interesting options. Personally I've played an Aberrant sorcerer for a while and I absolutely loved it! Melee sorcerer is always a risky business but it's huge fun and makes your GM and party members drop their jaws in awe regularly.
An alternative to Improved unarmed strike is to wear a gauntlet. It is a simple weapon, which I believe your sorcerer is proficient in already. Make that a spiked gauntlet, and you should be good to go.
Unless your GM is really nice going into melee will get you killed, but since you want to try what resources are you allowed, and what is your point buy?
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Wildblooded empyreal sorc/monk could be fun, wisdom for spellcasting and AC. There's also a feat that allows you to apply the effects of your bloodline power on an unarmed strike, Fey bloodline for laughing punches could be pretty cool.
You wouldn't need a particularly high caster stat, the minimum to be able to cast all your spells would suffice. You'll mostly be casting buffs and touch spells. I'd focus on ones with multiple charges so you can punch for unarmed damage plus chill touch, frostbite, etc.
One of my characters for pfs is a barbarian1/sorceress4/dragon disciple. She mostly uses a falchion. The claws are cool, but you only get limited rounds per day to use them, which is generally enough at first level, but you never get more. So at higher levels if all you do is claw, you run out.
If you're going with a maximum-strength punching sorcerer, you want to get Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity: you'll get a very significant damage-boost out of that. At higher levels, assume 28 base str (including +4 from dragon disciple) and a +6 belt, that's another +7 points of damage on each punch, on top of the other bonuses of Dragon Ferocity. If you dipped one level into a monk, you've done far better for your 2 feats than a fighter who took greater weapon specialisation. And that's not counting the size bonuses to STR you can get from your spells.
High-str + dragon-ferocity + flurry is a beautiful thing.
I actually think that a single level of monk will be well worth it to get the free improved unarmed strike, free monk feat and flurry of blows (extra punch on a full attack and at full str bonus to damage!) The boost to saves will also be useful, but the main thing is flurry. Since you will have hardly any iterative attacks, flurry of blows will help you get the most out of your monstrous strength bonus.
My recommendation:
Monk 1
DD: 4
Sorc: all other levels
Invest in Improved Eldrith Heritage: Orc for up to a +6 inherent bonus to str. At higher levels, slap on one of the giant forms and you can crack 50 str.
Spells:
Elemental touch is a buff rather than a touch spell (note the duration), so it stacks with touch spells for enhancing your punches.
False life and mirror-image: these will keep you alive.
Heroism: makes up for your low BAB. At higher levels, you should have this almost all the time.
Improved invisibility and the polymorphing spells will further improve your punching, either by increasing your size and STR or making the enemy flat-footed for your attacks.
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Title says it I want a sorcerer that has very high strength and is fully able to fight through strength alone. I've been reading a few threads about how to boost strength, some made recent, but there are a few questions I have before I can finish a build.
1) is a dip of monk for the unarmed strike ever worth it?
2) is unarmed strike ever worth the feat for this?
3) how much strength is enough? I've easily seen strength as high as 60 but that was t as a full caster.
4) are claws greater than unarmed strike?
5) casting vs optimized form of the dragon.I welcome any advice, builds, or answers to my questions.
how'd you get a 60str?
Outside of this you'd be better off as a magus or a bloodrager, but you could still pull it off with sorcererFirst off, start as dragon blooded, then go dragon desciple, then pick up the eldritch heritage (abissal I think?)
Buff yourself, get a reach weapon
20 starting str
4 stat gain
4 dragon disciple (4 levels)
6 belt
6 inherent (eldrith heritage - orc or abyssal bloodline)
That gets you a baseline of 40.
+8 size (giant form 2)
+2 morale (rage spell)
Yeah...50 is doable, not sure about 60.
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I'm not sure why folks are recommending taking the Eldritch Heritage feat chain multiple times. Those feats do not say that you can take them more than once, so you can't.
I'm currently playing a polymorphing wizard in PFS and I'm doing well. I just hit 11th and that's when I really power up. 6th level spells are key. Form of the Dragon I combined with Transformation makes you really effective in combat.
If you really want to do some damage, though, find a way to get the druid spell Strong Jaw cast on you. It increases the base damage of your natural attacks by 2 size categories--and this applies to your unarmed attacks if you're punching things instead. My wizard gets it by taking the prestige class Magaambyan Arcanist (from Paths of Prestige).
With just Beast Shape III and Strong Jaw, I can change into a Behemoth Hippo that has a bite attack doing a base damage of 8d8. At 13th level, I could (finally) qualify to take Vital Strike, so I could make that into 16d8 damage. With a 30 Str and a +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists (all I can afford so far) Power Attack (using the higher BAB from Transformation), that's an average of 101 damage. Form of the Dragon gets me more attacks per round, and thus more overall damage, but it's pretty darn nice to be able to do 1 whopping big attack.
I was only recommending the Eldritch Heritage feat line for orc OR abyssal. Improved EH gets you scaling inherent bonuses to str for either bloodline.
How do you get transformation AND beast shape III on yourself? Doesn't one make you unable to cast the other?
20 starting str
4 stat gain
4 dragon disciple (4 levels)
6 belt
6 inherent (eldrith heritage - orc or abyssal bloodline)That gets you a baseline of 40.
+8 size (giant form 2)
+2 morale (rage spell)Yeah...50 is doable, not sure about 60.
10 tiers of mythic adds 10 more stat points. That's all I got.
Bloodrager.
Can you use the 3.5 battle sorcerer alternate class? I played with a guy who did, and he did great in melee. A lot of it might have been the Feral template, but he was a kobold and would use the wraithstrike spell to full attack as touch attacks.
And are you married to the sorcerer class? Maybe orc scarred witch doctor (witch with Con as casting stat) or magus would work better? Or play one of the native outsider races that get all martial weapon proficiencies as a racial ability and go into Eldritch Knight? Even Fighter 1/Sorcerer 9/Eldritch Knight gets 18 spellcaster levels, and thus 9th level spell. Magical Knack trait would keep your caster level equal to your character level, naturally.
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No paizo only. Strictly speaking I'm not married to the sorcerer but I prefer the idea of strong and great smile over strong and durable unless the sorcerer is just plain bad when compared to the alternative. All that said, what did u have in mind for a build? Witches are my WORST and least played class so I would likely need a tutoring on that path way.
i would suggest wizard transmute school. extra bonus to a stats like Con, very powerful since you lack HP. then you can still eldritch heritage into orc for your boost to damage. going with wizard is a stats boost and an extra level (only need to be a level 17 wizard for 9th vrs an 18th as a sorcerer) to gain your 9th level spells. so for instance you could do a 2 monk/8 wizard/10 EK and max your ability to increase your physical damage.
you could even do a 1 monk (or unarmed fighter for light armor proficiency and celestial mail armor)/4 DD/10 EK/5 wizard to max your HP.
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I was only recommending the Eldritch Heritage feat line for orc OR abyssal. Improved EH gets you scaling inherent bonuses to str for either bloodline.
How do you get transformation AND beast shape III on yourself? Doesn't one make you unable to cast the other?
Ah, you're right. An animal form won't allow me to cast and Transmutation won't allow me to cast any spells for the duration. Ah, well, dragon form is more useful than a hippo, anyways, and it lets you cast spells.
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Human would be pretty nice even with MoMS, as you can take Focused Study alt. racial trait and get Skill Focus [Eldritch Heritage prerequisite] 3x, so it would certainly be helpful IMO.
Other than that, Angelkin and Idyllkin Aasimar both have their merits, Iydllkin gives more HP and the SLA can grant some flanking buddies, while Angelkin gives more Str and the SLA to grant some natural attacks and more Str on top. Both give Cha bonuses which are always helpful on a sorcerer. If you wanted to add a bit of cheese [and the GM allows it], make them half-halfing[quarerling?] or half-gnome Aasimars to give the size bonus to AC and Attack Rolls.
Half-Elf does the same prerequisite-skipping as Human [skill focus], but also grants bonuses to some saves, and a couple of immunities, and low-light vision. It might be a decent choice.
Gnome would be hilarious. Not necessarily optimal, but you have the flavor of a 3ft tall purple guy with magenta hair who runs up to people up to 10 times his size, and beats them to death. Pretty funny image if you ask me. Still, that would be mechanically worse than most other choices due to all the penalties.
What about Magus? Not a Sorcerer but you still get the magic effect. Pretty sure you can go unarmed or natural attacks with spell strike.
Not sure sure though.
20 starting str
4 stat gain
4 dragon disciple (4 levels)
6 belt
6 inherent (eldrith heritage - orc or abyssal bloodline)That gets you a baseline of 40.
+8 size (giant form 2)
+2 morale (rage spell)Yeah...50 is doable, not sure about 60.
I got to 56 by adding a level each of Barbarian for raging and Alchemist for Mutagen.
I got to 56 by adding a level each of Barbarian for raging and Alchemist for Mutagen.20 starting str
4 stat gain
4 dragon disciple (4 levels)
6 belt
6 inherent (eldrith heritage - orc or abyssal bloodline)That gets you a baseline of 40.
+8 size (giant form 2)
+2 morale (rage spell)Yeah...50 is doable, not sure about 60.
An orc can start with 22 Strength. A bit non-standard, but doable. And does the ragechemist alchemist archetype increase the Strength increase from mutagens? And I think there is a trait that increases morale bonuses by +1, so that combined with a 5th stat gain at level 20 is an additional +2.
I got to 56 by adding a level each of Barbarian for raging and Alchemist for Mutagen.20 starting str
4 stat gain
4 dragon disciple (4 levels)
6 belt
6 inherent (eldrith heritage - orc or abyssal bloodline)That gets you a baseline of 40.
+8 size (giant form 2)
+2 morale (rage spell)Yeah...50 is doable, not sure about 60.
Ah, but you see, I was also aiming to get access to level 9 spells in the process, albeit at level 20. ;)
Unless you use the retraining rules taking all the polymorph spells on a sorcerer is gonna feel like a waste. But if you do i suggest the abherrent bloodlineline, for some durabilite. Stay sorcerer all the way to get bigger and better spells faster.
Take a longspear until your defenses are a bit better like when you get mirror image.
If you dont use the retraining rules look at the transmutation specialist wizard instead.