Combat use of non-combat cantrips


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


It looks to me like some of the cantrips (and orisons) could be useful in combat, even though clearly not designed for it.

Dancing Lights:
Four torch-like or will o'wisp-like lights, within 10 ft of each other, moving up to 100ft/round.
How well is someone going to fight if these things are dancing round their head - or right in front of their face? It would be hugely distracting, if they could see their opponents at all through the lights. It lasts one minute - and the caster requires no concentration to keep it up.
(GMs - how would you rule on this use of the spell in this way?)

Ghost Sound:
Many options. An attacking shout from someone behind the enemy fighting your party's fighter. The sound of four more party members, clanking with weapons and armour, approaching from round the corner. The sound of one of the attackers calling retreat. May not be successful (the Will save is allowed) but could be worth a try.

Open/Close:
Could we open the fastening on someone's clothes or armour? (The spell description specifies 'container' so maybe not).

Prestidigitation:
You can create small objects within 10 feet (even though they will look crude and artificial). Can I create a hood or blindfold over someone's head? This might not be overpowered, as it could be easily removed or destroyed in a standard action by someone with their hands free.
There's room for distraction in Prestidigitation's other effects too (though probably not as strongly as Dancing Lights).

Onto the orisons
Create Water:
With a range of at least 25 ft, an enemy could probably me made to drop an arrow from their bow or otherwise lose an attack by having 2+ gallons of water splash down over their head. Or on a smooth floor, the water appearing at/under their feet could slip them up. (It's been suggested elsewhere that this spell is overpowered as unlimited-cast, and should be level one instead).
(Again, GMs I'd be interested to know how you'd rule this usage).

Are there any more cantrips/orisons - or additional creative combat uses of them - I've missed? (I thought 'Mage Hand' had potential, but the 'unattended' object requirement probably kills it.)

Sovereign Court

sgriobhadair wrote:

It looks to me like some of the cantrips (and orisons) could be useful in combat, even though clearly not designed for it.

Sure.

sgriobhadair wrote:


Dancing Lights:
Four torch-like or will o'wisp-like lights, within 10 ft of each other, moving up to 100ft/round.
How well is someone going to fight if these things are dancing round their head - or right in front of their face? It would be hugely distracting, if they could see their opponents at all through the lights. It lasts one minute - and the caster requires no concentration to keep it up.
(GMs - how would you rule on this use of the spell in this way?)

I'd rule that controlling the lights well enough to really distract is not free, but that it allows the caster to use the lights to make a Aid Another, Feint or Dirty Trick maneuver with a +2 circumstance bonus, at range.

sgriobhadair wrote:


Ghost Sound:
Many options. An attacking shout from someone behind the enemy fighting your party's fighter. The sound of four more party members, clanking with weapons and armour, approaching from round the corner. The sound of one of the attackers calling retreat. May not be successful (the Will save is allowed) but could be worth a try.

Likewise; you can use it to get a Bluff check to distract someone or maybe use a maneuver on them. Another use for this (or the dancing lights), might be to try to trick someone into making an AoO on direction of the sound/dancing lights. Thus maybe making someone spend his last AoO, and letting your party do stuff while the enemy can't make any more AoOs.

sgriobhadair wrote:


Open/Close:
Could we open the fastening on someone's clothes or armour? (The spell description specifies 'container' so maybe not).

I think that'd be stretching the spell too far.

sgriobhadair wrote:


Prestidigitation:
You can create small objects within 10 feet (even though they will look crude and artificial). Can I create a hood or blindfold over someone's head? This might not be overpowered, as it could be easily removed or destroyed in a standard action by someone with their hands free.
There's room for distraction in Prestidigitation's other effects too (though probably not as strongly as Dancing Lights).

I think the hood is going too far. I wouldn't let the spell directly affect strongly unwilling people. But I'd let a wizard use it to for example Aid Another his buddy, by creating a small distraction.

sgriobhadair wrote:


Onto the orisons
Create Water:
With a range of at least 25 ft, an enemy could probably me made to drop an arrow from their bow or otherwise lose an attack by having 2+ gallons of water splash down over their head. Or on a smooth floor, the water appearing at/under their feet could slip them up. (It's been suggested elsewhere that this spell is overpowered as unlimited-cast, and should be level one instead).
(Again, GMs I'd be interested to know how you'd rule this usage).

The unlimited water is a bit awkward. Although it takes quite a lot of castings to actually fill up even a single 5ft cube.

I wouldn't go for dropping an arrow, although imposing a -2 to hit for the first attack of the next round might be appropriate; it's irritating but not crushing.

Slipperiness could work, I'd make it a fairly easy check though - Acrobatics or Reflex 5 maybe. This isn't nearly as slippery as Grease. Of course, if you use this in a freezing environment, those DCs go up up up.

===

In summary: I'm all for people making creative use of cantrips. Most of the time the effects will be limited; cause a +/- 2 modifier on a check, or just get the ability to try a maneuver. (If you lack the skills/feats to be good at that maneuver, tough luck.)

But if you really have the right thing at the right moment, the effects could be bigger. A Ghost Sound that suggests you have reinforcements coming (with a good Bluff roll) might cause enemies to retreat. And Create Water can extinguish fires (very useful) or freeze and cause major slipperiness.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Stuff

Great answers. I think a Dirty Trick with the dancing lights is too much, but the rest I agree with.

Sovereign Court

The thing with Dirty Trick is, you can only inflict those conditions the GM feels appropriate to the thing you're using to inflict. Using Dancing Lights to inflict Dazzle wouldn't be out of line. Blinded would be a bit too much.

I think the nicest thing to do with Dancing Lights though, is try to get people to attack the "fire elemental" or "lantern archon" or "will-o-wisp".

Or, if they know how nasty a will-o'-wisp is, to run away from it.


Could you make a powder like substance with Prestidigitation so you could throw it into a square to find invisible creatures?

Someone used mage hand to hold a rock in front of him as he walked so he didn't walk into anything like a cube


I've used ghost sound to distract an angry badger into thinking another badger was approaching from a nearby but unseen location. The badger moved to address the new "threat" and we took the opportunity to improve our tactical positioning and set up a flank for Roguey O'Stabbington.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I guess you could do Dancing Lights as a single target Flare.


Knowledge check to figure out what sound a creature would fear and have ghost sound make it?

Sovereign Court

Rapanuii wrote:

Could you make a powder like substance with Prestidigitation so you could throw it into a square to find invisible creatures?

Someone used mage hand to hold a rock in front of him as he walked so he didn't walk into anything like a cube

You can also do this with ordinary, nonmagical flour. So yeah.

Liberty's Edge

Dancing Lights

Silver Crusade

I have used Mage Hand to drop a blanket on a foe. This worked especially well against a monster with a gaze attack, since it could not see any PCs.


I believe I had a player use ghost sound to drive away some lions/dire lion by placing the sound of a T-Rex further into the forest. (in a survival/exploration campaign where they'd already seen a T-Rex)

Not sure if that was legit, but the noise rules seemed close enough.

Grand Lodge

I've used Ghost Sound to distract Goblins. They just love hearing the sound of barking dogs down the adjoining corridors.


I have used Create Water to help locate invisible critters; look for the footprints.


Ghost sound is the best. My halfling bard used it to scare off a pack of ghouls with the sound of a rooster crowing morning. I've also used it to simulate police whistles to scare off thugs. Another time I had a turnip in a sack and used ghost sound to create the sound of hissing and snake rattles. I then used bluff and convinced my enemies that I had a medusa's head in there and would use it to turn them to stone.

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