|
First of all - are you sure you need to put the brakes on this? If it's not being disruptive to the table I don't know that you need to. He has invested a lot into it apparently.
If you still want to put the brakes on, go ahead and use the text from the GameMastery Guide. Even though it's not legal for character creation there's absolutely nothing keeping a GM from using the guidelines in there.
In general, a character can consume a number of alcoholic beverages equal to 1 plus double his Constitution modifier before being sickened for 1 hour equal to the number of drinks above this maximum. Particularly exotic or strong forms of alcohol might be treated as normal drugs.
Sake is a relatively strong form of alcohol in real life but I probably would just use the "normal strength" rule in a world where Dwarven Firewater and similar libations exist.
GM: "OK, that's your 5th drink. You have a con of +2 so if you drink any more before an hour passes you are going to be sickened."
Player: "That rule is from the GMG, you can't use it!"
GM: "If there's no rule in the CRB, I apply my best judgement on things. I could just make something up, but since Paizo already published something, I'll just go with that."
Player: "But there's no rule on drunkenness in Additional Resources so I can't get drunk."
GM: "There's also no rule on 'walking on your hands' so are you saying I have to allow anyone who wants to do a handstand and travel that way to move at full speed? How about if a normal human wants to eat six times her body weight in steak per day? Do I have to allow that? If someone comes up with a clever way to avoid a trap that isn't using Disable Device do I have to disallow that?"
Player: "No, you can make judgement calls but you can't use that particular rule because it's in the GMG."
GM: "I disagree with you but I'll cave in and make up a different rule for you. Every drink - including the first - imposes a cumulative -1 penalty to attack rolls, damage, and skill checks. The penalties disappear at a rate of 1 every 2 hours."
Of course it's possible the player will get furious with you and disrupt the table because you are "being an unfair, cheating @$$#()!&." As I mentioned above, unless he is disrupting the table to begin with I wouldn't make a big deal about it.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Our local drunken master happens to be an awesome roleplayer and knows both how to run his character efficiently *and* when to hold back so others can play, so I haven't had to deal with this. I do, however, think Belafon's solution is a perfectly valid and elegant one. I'd also enforce regular bathroom breaks, etc. as necessary.
EDIT: if this is a regular problem, perhaps "some" rule should become official, to avoid GMs overdoing the penalties as a way to control or nerf a character that they think is overpowered... FAQ?
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
|
Actually, I think this might be covered in the GtPFSOP...
Additionally, a GM should have access to all books
in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game line of hardcover
rulebooks, whether a physical or electronic copy. The
rules content of these books can be found online for free
as part of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference
Document located at paizo.com/prd.
Last I knew the GMG was in their line of hardcover rulebooks, so it is part of the core assumption for GMs. They've used other things from the GMG; stats, chase rules, other things I can't remember right now... So I say go for it! Use the rules Paizo has provided. Just tell him "GMs are not bound by the additional resources, which is why all the hardcover rulebooks are part of the GM's Core Assumption. Just because you can't use things found in it as a player doesn't mean I can't use rules in it as a GM. Scenarios use rules from it often enough."
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
First of all - are you sure you need to put the brakes on this? If it's not being disruptive to the table I don't know that you need to. He has invested a lot into it apparently.
This. What, specifically, is the problem? All that's been described in the OP is that someone has invested in being able to use their class features consistently. Why does that need to be stopped? What benefit will be gained from reducing how often/consistently this player can get a return on his investments?
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Be careful with that, Eric.
A year ago, I had a couple of players sit at my table, and one of them presented me with a sheet explaining that his character was permanetly insane, as a result of his Wisdom attribute being damaged to 0, as per the GMG. We ruled that, while the GM was a good egg for following the rules as he understood them, and the player was terrific for informing me, his new GM, of the penalty applied to his character, we didn't think it appropriate to use the GMG in such a way.
That's what you're advocating, yes?
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
As a Pathfinder Society GM, you have the right and
responsibility to make whatever judgements, within the
rules, that you feel are necessary at your table to ensure
everyone has a fair and fun experience. This does not
mean you can contradict rules or restrictions outlined in
this document, a published Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
source, errata document, or official FAQ on paizo.com....
As a Pathfinder Society GM, you have the right and
responsibility to make whatever judgements, within the
rules, that you feel are necessary at your table to ensure
everyone has a fair and fun experience. This does not
mean you can contradict rules or restrictions outlined in
this document, a published Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
source, errata document, or official FAQ on paizo.com.
So you couldn't tell him "you drank 3 drinks? Okay, give me a fortitude check or pass out." But you could use the rules from GMG (as far as I can tell.)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If this game was at "games +1" then i was a player at this table, if not we have a drunken monk doing the exact same thing. The problem seemed to be that the character potentially had unlimited free ki healing, unlimited free extra attacks, unlimited ki movement, and many other ki abilities. He drinks back all of his ki at the end of every combat. Now i am not a GM only a player and i don't know the RAW for these abilities but from a fellow pc at the table it sucked being next to him because it was pretty sitting back watching him take care of all the battles nearly single handed at i believe lvl 5 or 6 on day of the demon high tier.
if their are not rules against it, their should be for the sake of balancing to keep games fun.
In a recent session, he spent over 50 ki points LEGALLY in just one scenario- one dungeon.Now I'm curious... what the heck did he need fifty ki points for?
-Matt's never spent more than eight or so.
What comes to mind first is Wholeness of Body for free healing. If he's got infinite ki, that's inefficient, free healing at the cost of 2 ki per standard action.
|
|
So the question of HOW to nerf this character has been sufficiently answered. But the remaining question that Jiggy raised above, as to WHY this character needs to be nerfed, has yet to be addressed by anyone. Am I missing something obvious?
Because having a literally limitless number of ki points is not good for the game. Ifinite magus arcana points were far worse, but those are the reasons wyroot was banned.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
Well, he is a monk, he can afford to spend his armor budget on a drinking horn of bottomless valor
:)
Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane
|
Why add an additional limit, when there are already limits in place? The temporary Ki only lasts for an hour, and drinking more than your capacity in an hour makes you sickened. Adding cost makes sense, and adding extra action cost if drinking in combat. But, really? Was this guy actually drinking in combat, or just in between combats?
I have a PFS Drunken Master myself, who is only level 5, and I've only recently realised that I can replenish his drunken Ki. So, now, the constant drinking isn't JUST for flavour :) My Drunken Master has two waterskins of ale, plus a mule loaded with a barrel. He also owns a distillery, but that's a different story.
|
|
]
This. What, specifically, is the problem? All that's been described in the OP is that someone has invested in being able to use their class features consistently. Why does that need to be stopped? What benefit will be gained from reducing how often/consistently this player can get a return on his investments?
The general problem with a character using some feature ad absurdum tends to be that it has sucked the fun out of the game - either for the GM or for the other players or very often both. The comment of inhuman_candyman seems to back this up in the current case.
So the underplaying problem most often is to restore fun for everyone at the table.
There are different ways to deal with such a problem
Using rules itself to combat rules
Asking for errata or rules changes if it is not only a single player
Asking a player to restrain himself in how he uses certain rules
Pathfinder is a complex game based on rules that also is a social game. Rules should be there to enhance enjoyment at the table and give a framework so everyone knows what to expect.
This discussions will go away as long as GMs and players understand this.
And that's why my drunken murder hobo carries potions and wands of remove sickness. In case a GM decides to enforce unsupported rules.
|
|
... and has a teifling's prehensile tail to swap out things and drink for free (essentially doing the gunsligner free reload routine with booze instead of bullets). But that's the point, Rene, they're *not* unsupported rules; not everyone has a player with as much cheese restraint as you have! It is better if the GM knows what the rules are, rather than being left to devise their own or use none. 50 ki in a game is silly.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
Actually, the teifling tail just gives you a swift action retrieve. Drinking a potion or a beverage is still a standard. You can get it down to a move with the drunken barbarian thing, but that would pretty much defeat the point since then you would get the extra barbarian rage in place of the ki.
Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs
|
Actually, the teifling tail just gives you a swift action retrieve. Drinking a potion or a beverage is still a standard. You can get it down to a move with the drunken barbarian thing, but that would pretty much defeat the point since then you would get the extra barbarian rage in place of the ki.
You could take the Accelerated Drinker to get it as a move action, but it is a combat trait.
Need to get one of those horns of valor for my cayden cailean rogue.
So the additional resources restriction is for players and not GMs. Interesting premise.
|
Venture-Captain, Germany—Hamburg
|
Some scenarios actually tell the GM to read rules in the Game Mastery Guide. Like telling them where to find the detailed rules on chase scenes or on haunts.
Also, if you read the introduction text for additional resources, it's quite clear they're meant for character creation, not for GMs running their games.
Below is a specific list of Paizo Publishing products and the equipment, traits, deities, spells, feats, and classes contained within that are legal for play in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. While most of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook is legal for play (with some feat and spell exceptions), these additional resources give you new character options. If a product does not appear on this list, then it is not considered legal for play. This list will be updated frequently as new products are released.
Downloads, content, and Additional Resources for your Pathfinder Society Character
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The player was spending drunken Ki on every attack or move that they could. Then they would drink to replenish their Ki. Then they would pop drunken Ki points to heal, then drink back to maximum pool. We were unaware that the Gamemastery Guide WAS legal as a GM tool in PFS. Thank you, Eric Clingenpeel, for pointing that out. It isn't that we want to stop him from using what he obviously has put a lot of thought and design into and everything is to PFS standards for rules. I take blame that I wasn't aware of such governing rules, but will have a chat with the player quietly and explain what is going on and what the circumstances are.
Thanks guys!
You do have him limited to one swift/immediate action a round, right? Regardless of how much ki he has, he can only activate one ki power on each of his turns. And if he uses an immediate action for anything, he loses his swift action the following turn.
If it's mainly the out-of-combat healing you're concerned about, monk's healing is less efficient than a cleric's channel, a paladin's lay on hands, or any character with healing spells. If it helps, just think of a drunken master's healing as a sillier version of a wand of cure light wounds.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
You can get it down to a move with the drunken barbarian thing, but that would pretty much defeat the point since then you would get the extra barbarian rage in place of the kiI haven't actually looked, but...could you not get both? Are they mutually exclusive?
Yes, Unlike drunken Ki, the drunken barbarian specifies that you extend your rage by one turn *in place of the normal effects of the alcohol* So no alcohol for the drunken Ki.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
The player was spending drunken Ki on every attack or move that they could. Then they would drink to replenish their Ki. Then they would pop drunken Ki points to heal, then drink back to maximum pool. We were unaware that the Gamemastery Guide WAS legal as a GM tool in PFS. Thank you, Eric Clingenpeel, for pointing that out. It isn't that we want to stop him from using what he obviously has put a lot of thought and design into and everything is to PFS standards for rules. I take blame that I wasn't aware of such governing rules, but will have a chat with the player quietly and explain what is going on and what the circumstances are.
Thanks guys!
You do have him limited to one swift/immediate action a round, right? Regardless of how much ki he has, he can only activate one ki power on each of his turns. And if he uses an immediate action for anything, he loses his swift action the following turn.
If it's mainly the out-of-combat healing you're concerned about, monk's healing is less efficient than a cleric's channel, a paladin's lay on hands, or any character with healing spells. If it helps, just think of a drunken master's healing as a sillier version of a wand of cure light wounds.
The thing is, that with a pack animal to carry the casks, it is effectively a CLW wand with infinite charges...
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The thing is, that with a pack animal to carry the casks, it is effectively a CLW wand with infinite charges...
This breaks the game less than the very presence of CLW wands in the first place. If you can heal to full betweeen combats, does it matter if you're using a wand or a tankard?
|
|
It does if it is the difference between 3 gp per hit point and 0.3 cp per hit point.
Or (since this was a PFS game) 0.0007 prestige points per hit point. Even outside of PFS, it takes a 7th level monk to do this trick, at which point the cost of cure light wands is not significant to the character's wealth.
Having the ability to heal to full doesn't break the system. It is built into the system. Healing to full for free between fights is not.
So cleric's channels are game breaking? This is a character's class (archetype) ability, which he traded other abilities for.
I don't think it's game breaking, but I do think it makes sense for there to be some mechanism to cover the effects of alcohol in PFS, even just for role playing's sake. There are already alchemical remedies for hangovers and the like, so clearly the designer intended alcohol to have side effects in game.
|
|
Well, he is a monk, he can afford to spend his armor budget on a drinking horn of bottomless valor
:)
"He spent 24,000 gp, and now gets free healing! For FREE! And it only cost 24,000 gp for that free healing that he is getting for free! No fair!"
|
Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs
|
Yes, Unlike drunken Ki, the drunken barbarian specifies that you extend your rage by one turn *in place of the normal effects of the alcohol* So no alcohol for the drunken Ki.You can get it down to a move with the drunken barbarian thing, but that would pretty much defeat the point since then you would get the extra barbarian rage in place of the kiI haven't actually looked, but...could you not get both? Are they mutually exclusive?
Well there goes my idea for an ex-monk drunken master/drunken brute barbarian.
Drunken Ki (Su)
At 3rd level, a drunken master can drink a tankard of ale or strong alcohol and gain one temporary ki point. The act of drinking is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The monk can have a maximum number of drunken ki points equal to 1 plus one additional point for every two levels thereafter (5th, 7th, and so on). The monk can gain this temporary ki even before he gains a ki pool at 4th level. These drunken ki points last for 1 hour or until spent, whichever is shorter. As long as he has at least 1 drunken ki point, the monk can spend 1 ki point as a swift action to move 5 feet without provoking attacks of opportunity.
Raging Drunk (Ex)
While raging, the drunken brute can drink a potion, or a tankard of ale or similar quantity of alcohol, as a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A potion has its normal effect, while an alcoholic drink allows the barbarian to maintain her rage that round without expending a round of rage for the day (instead of the alcohol’s normal effects). For each alcoholic drink consumed while raging, the barbarian is nauseated for 1 round when her rage expires, in addition the normal fatigue that follows a rage. Tireless rage does not negate this nauseated condition but the internal fortitude rage power does.
Drunken Brawler (Combat)
You have learned how to fight effectively while drunk.
Prerequisite: Endurance.
Benefit: When you drink a tankard of ale or strong alcohol, you take a –2 penalty on Reflex saving throws, but gain a number of temporary hit points equal to your level, and gain a +2 alchemical bonus on Fortitude and Will saving throws. These bonuses lasts an hour or until the temporary hit points gained by this effect are spent, whichever occurs first. The penalties last for a full hour.
I see no reason why a Drunken Brute/Master could not receive both benefits from drinking. The (instead of the alcohol's normal effects) part is speaking to the sickened condition that is achieved from drinking over the hourly limit. Getting a Ki point from drinking isn't a 'normal effect' so it doesn't replace that. Oh and why not give your toon the Drunken Brawler combat feat while you're at it. 3 benefits from liquor in one go, boom.
The 'instead of normal effects' line might even mean a Drunken Brute doesn't have to worry about the negative side effects of drinking (sickened condition, addiction, hang over) as they are all part of the 'normal' side of things.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
@Rene, the "normal effect" is the effect if you did not have this archetype. It covers sickness, addiction, any powers the special brew of alcohol might have, etc. It also cover the benefits other archtypes get from drinking alcohol.
@Fox, I was referring to the case where the character just has to spend a few coppers for a beer and gets back 7+ hp. The Horn was an example of how to get drinking for free, and it was more or less a joke because it costs so much more than the cost of the alcohol you are replacing. (and while it has a nice power, if you use ti's 3 point power, you lose the benefit of free alcohol.
I don't know of many people that would consider accumulating supernatural energy that can be used to power spell like abilities, make you run faster or jump higher from a shot of tequila 'a normal effect of drinking alcohol'.
Hence the (SU) next to that class feature there ;)
Normal:
Alcohol
Just like drugs, alcohol can be abused and have significant negative effects. In general, a character can consume a number of alcoholic beverages equal to 1 plus double his Constitution modifier before being sickened for 1 hour equal to the number of drinks above this maximum. Particularly exotic or strong forms of alcohol might be treated as normal drugs. Those who regularly abuse alcohol might eventually develop a moderate addiction.
Sickened
The character takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
Moderate Addiction
Type disease, variable; Save variable
Onset 1 day; Frequency 1/day
Effect –2 penalty to Con and Str, target cannot naturally heal ability damage caused by the drug that caused this addiction; Cure 3 consecutive saves
Flask of Endless Sake
Source Pathfinder #52: Forest of Spirits pg. 60 (JADE REGENT)
Aura faint enchantment; CL 5th
Slot none; Price 4,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
This simple ceramic flask looks like any other normal container for serving sake, or rice wine. If the flask’s silver stopper is removed and the command word spoken, up to 1 gallon of sake can be poured from the flask per round. In addition, once per day, a character can drink directly from the flask to gain the effects of a potion, determined randomly. Roll 1d6 on the following table to determine the type of potion.
d6 Roll Potion type
1 heroism
2 cure moderate wounds
3 enlarge person
4 reduce person
5 lesser restoration
6 rage
This potion cannot be poured out or saved for later use; it must be drunk, and the potion’s effects take place immediately.
Construction
Requirements Brew Potion, Craft Wondrous Item, create water, cure moderate wounds, enlarge person, heroism, lesser restoration, rage, reduce person; Cost 2,000 gp