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I'm really unsure what you want to happen by posting this?
These characters are not illegal.
If at some point a GM audits you because things seem strange, and you have purchases beyond your means, the GM may deny your character and advise you to correct it. In extreme cases the GM may get the local Venture Officers involved.
A lot of games are rushed at chronicle time and the GM is going to fill out his entire part and then expect you to do the math. We are not the cheater police and unless I have a reason to suspect you cheating, I'm going to take your word for what things cost and what you spent.
Since at least Season 5 you have been able to shop between scenarios, as long as you record it on your ITS, then you write a note on the next chronicle, "bought stuff see ITS" and then a gold value. There hasn't been a need for a GM to initial purchases in a long time, and I typically don't unless someone asks for it specifically.
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My personal style is at the end of the game I collect everyone's previous Chronicle sheet. I then fill out their new Chronicle with the values from their previous Chronicle, totaling out their XP, PP and Gold. If they spent money before or during the game then I document it for them, in ink. If anyone hands me a previous Chronicle sheet with missing information they don't get a new Chronicle until the bookkeeping is caught up. A number of times people have handed me nearly blank Chronicle sheets and explained that they track everything on their character sheet. It is understandable, since in a home campaign this is often how it works but you have to train that out of people in PFS.
Edit: I warn players at the beginning of the game that I'll need their previous Chronicle sheet at the end of the game, and if their bookkeeping isn't caught up they can work on it during the game. This is often followed by deer-in-the-headlights expressions.
I think many GMs just hand out signed, blank Chronicle sheets because the end of the game is always rushed. Players say they don't want to be forced to decide on their purchases at the table. Fine, that's what the ITS is for. Fill it out at your leisure and show the GM at your next game.
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I should do it as Doug does, as it makes players keep their paperwork up to date. I usually do not, simply because there is usually way too little time left at the end of one game before mustering begins for the next one. Players will only occasionally have decided ahead of time on what they want to purchase, and delaying (or missing) a meal because of the indecision that will naturally occur strikes me as senseless, and in many cases hazardous to your health.
In a home game, or at those rare cons where slots are spaced 6 hours apart, GMs should make the effort.
@Pink Dragon - what Doug said. Don't be troubled by this not conforming to the strict letter of the Guide, rushing the purchasing process for your character only leads to frustration. Relax, have fun, and just make sure you are ready for the next adventure. (And be sure your numbers are correct!)
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This should really be addressed in a future version of the guide to accommodate a more reasonable way to track/audit sheets for both players and GMs.
Pink Dragon has hit the issue on the nose here. What's the point in the guide telling you to do one thing when in practice it doesn't really work?
The only reason not to do so is if we want to adopt the mindset that it's better read the rules and follow it as best you can, rather than it's better to change the rule so we can better follow it.
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All of these chronicle sheets are perfect...<--- ONLY way to spot a cheater.I am not sure what you mean by a "perfect chronicle sheet".
Everything's filled in, no math errors, no pencil marks, no items written down without any prices on them, no bents, tears, drink stains etc. (this is said somewhat jokingly. I know mine are a mess)
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Doug,
I know it means more work for the GM (me), but I really like your method of filling out the Chronicle for the player to ensure it is correct. I will have to try this when the venue isn't kicking my table out. I'm usually good about running short or on time so this is something my players can look forward to. Thanks.
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I try to fill in all the gm stuff at the bottom before the game.
I also when i run games always print out my Chronicle Sheets on blue paper. Its just something i did by accident in my first game, so ive carried on the legacy.
As we now have a between tier gold issue I fill out all the people in tier first one by one, then the between tier in that order.
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Sorry, I would have to ask to be excused from the table...
I'm slightly unclear, and hopefully you don't read anything extra into my question,
but are you saying you consider the official process as outlined in the OP guide so horrible/stressful that you are only willing to play with GMs that do not follow the rules? (98%)
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Sorry, I would have to ask to be excused from the table...I'm slightly unclear, and hopefully you don't read anything extra into my question,
but are you saying you consider the official process as outlined in the OP guide so horrible/stressful that you are only willing to play with GMs that do not follow the rules? (98%)
He's saying that they're so rarely followed that making them followed to the letter before play eats up too much time.
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Sorry, I would have to ask to be excused from the table...I'm slightly unclear, and hopefully you don't read anything extra into my question,
but are you saying you consider the official process as outlined in the OP guide so horrible/stressful that you are only willing to play with GMs that do not follow the rules? (98%)
I wouldn't characterize it as horrible or stressful. Pedantic and unnecessary maybe since the way that everyone does it works perfectly adequately and does not waste a bunch of everyone's time. So I'm likely with noisg on this one.
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I think there'a bit of a balance here - I only sign completed Chronicle sheets now, since those are the rules. If people want to buy things, they can "buy" them on their ITS and add it to the Chronicle at the start - almost everyone goes shopping after the V-C briefing anyway, so this doesn't eat game time so much as get people prepared beforehand.
With my regular groups, I have a sense of who does the paperwork and who doesn't, so I know where to focus my attention. At a Con, I make sure everything is filled out, since those player's won't have the option of going away, doing the math, and coming back for the signature.
Is this process unnecessary? For most people it's more than is required, but for some players it's the only way they actually get their act together. We have several players in our group who just can't keep their paperwork straight, to the extent that they have no idea if they have enough gold or prestige for a raise dead. That is the end result of just letting everyone fill out the details themselves - some GM gets stuck with a huge mess.
It's the nature of an inclusive campaign to have rules for the folks who just can't do it without help.
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SO, I'll just ask to be excused from this table please. Perhaps you can use the time savings from having one less player the judge needs to do paperwork to get in a few minutes more of the fun stuff - you know, the gaming. I'll move over to the table where the judge uses those minutes to provide a little more story/plot/Role Play or heck even a little more Roll Play.
You are more than welcome to have your own opinions, but holy moly do I think that opinion is ridiculous.
You seem to be making broad accusations here that you somehow think Doug or any GM who would try their best to follow the rules in a similar manner arent worth playing under because you wont have as much fun under their table. Or that they will somehow hurry the game along, so they have more time for the bookkeeping aspect of it.
I cant sto you from feeling this way, and I wouldnt stop you from leaving the table if you wanted, but wow.
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I am sure that Doug would do a great job of running the game, and it would be fun, I just would rather have 4 hours of fun than 3.5 hours of fun and a half hour of waiting for him to do paperwork for 5 other players.SO, I'll just ask to be excused from this table please. Perhaps you can use the time savings from having one less player the judge needs to do paperwork to get in a few minutes more of the fun stuff - you know, the gaming. I'll move over to the table where the judge uses those minutes to provide a little more story/plot/Role Play or heck even a little more Roll Play.You are more than welcome to have your own opinions, but holy moly do I think that opinion is ridiculous.
You seem to be making broad accusations here that you somehow think Doug or any GM who would try their best to follow the rules in a similar manner arent worth playing under because you wont have as much fun under their table. Or that they will somehow hurry the game along, so they have more time for the bookkeeping aspect of it.
I cant sto you from feeling this way, and I wouldnt stop you from leaving the table if you wanted, but wow.
But you are assuming that the game will be done in 3.5 hours because he is trying to make time to do the paperwork how he wants to. Perhaps the scenario is just short. Perhaps the party bypassed an encounter or two with solid tactics or Diplomacy? There are all kinds of things can influence the amount of time it takes to complete a scenario.
Stating you simply would prefer to have X hours of fun so you cant sit at GM Y's table is insulting not just to the particular GM, but to GMs in general.
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Every game I've been at, the GM has handed out pre-signed character sheets with the XP, gold, etc., already filled out, but not the accounting.
That is, except for the games I'm GMing. For FtF games, I've done the full thing where I fill out the GM stuff but don't sign it, give it to the players, let them fill out the rest, then they give it to me and I sign it, then I give it back. In practice, this ends up taking about 20 minutes at the end of the game, and it is a bit of gratuitous and annoying extra paperwork that leaves players wondering why the hell I'm messing with this PFS nonsense instead of running games. (Some of them might actually use their characters with other GMs at some point, so I do it all. The people who will only play with me as GM have a point.) So, I'm not sure it's worth doing everything that I do (and I don't do as much as what Doug described above.)
In PbP games, I do something much closer to what Doug does. I ask the players to give me in a forum post (or private message) what they would write in all the boxes (e.g. previous experience, previous gold, etc.). I then fill out everything and do the math for them, and send them a fully complete signed Chronicle. In PbP games, there isn't the same time pressure; if you get them the sheet within a day, you're doing fine. I don't always fully audit previous chronicles, though, so I'm not as anal as Doug. (Sometimes I go there to find the numbers I need; players, being human, are terrible at following instructions and often don't give me everything I've asked for so that I can fill out the sheet.)
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I am sure that Doug would do a great job of running the game, and it would be fun, I just would rather have 4 hours of fun than 3.5 hours of fun and a half hour of waiting for him to do paperwork for 5 other players.SO, I'll just ask to be excused from this table please. Perhaps you can use the time savings from having one less player the judge needs to do paperwork to get in a few minutes more of the fun stuff - you know, the gaming. I'll move over to the table where the judge uses those minutes to provide a little more story/plot/Role Play or heck even a little more Roll Play.You are more than welcome to have your own opinions, but holy moly do I think that opinion is ridiculous.
You seem to be making broad accusations here that you somehow think Doug or any GM who would try their best to follow the rules in a similar manner arent worth playing under because you wont have as much fun under their table. Or that they will somehow hurry the game along, so they have more time for the bookkeeping aspect of it.
I cant sto you from feeling this way, and I wouldnt stop you from leaving the table if you wanted, but wow.
But you are assuming that the game will be done in 3.5 hours because he is trying to make time to do the paperwork how he wants to. Perhaps the scenario is just short. Perhaps the party bypassed an encounter or two with solid tactics or Diplomacy? There are all kinds of things can influence the amount of time it takes to complete a scenario.
Stating you simply would prefer to have X hours of fun so you cant sit at GM Y's table is insulting not just to the particular GM, but to GMs in general.
Seth, what he is saying is that he would rather play the game, with the full alloted time, rather than have to worry that a GM is either going to be rushing the party through encounters to finish early, or have to call the game before the end, because he needs that last 20-30 minutes to do paperwork, rather than letting the game play at its own pace.
Would you rather play, say, The Blakros Matrimony in 3.5 hours, with a GM who is also making some of the players' play in a distracted fashion while they try to finish up his required paperwork before the end of the game, or have a full 4 hours time to RP that scenario, with all the players fully involved?
As with nosig, I would probably go looking for a table focused on playing the scenario, rather than focused on post-game paperwork during the game.
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Rknop: Huh? How do they fill out the gold before game if you may not find everything in game for max gold? Or are all your gms just giving out full gold because its too difficult to calculate how much gold wasnt found?
Ive no problem with doing the paperwork at the end of the game. I use that time to explain boons and if someone asks how a fight could of gone, or what X monster was Ill explain it then.
I think some of us have fallen into the con cycle of a hard 4 hour slot (or less) assigned for a game. It essentially means that perhaps 20 minutes of that 4 hours is tied up in paperwork or there is a blind rush to sign and work out numbers in the last 5 minutes. It is not something which excites me about con gaming but it is what it is.
Im not saying Nosigs view is this either, but Im thinking that Convention play in generaly has modified some gm/players views on the subject and what they actually do to get finished on time.
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Well, you lose time at the beginning waiting for everyone to show up, especially if you risk teetering onto 2 tables and someone doesn't know if they're playing or dming, so if thats 20 minutes at the start and if you add 30 minutes at the end its starting to creep down to 3.1 hours... yeah thats a lot of missed rp.
How do they fill out the gold before game if you may not find everything in game for max gold? Or are all your gms just giving out full gold because its too difficult to calculate how much gold wasnt found?
You get the gold no matter how you "win" the encounter, so its not usually an issue. Most scenarios are more or less on track so the chances of missing anything are pretty low unless there's a semi superfluous room AND the pathfinders need to leave the scene quickly (otherwise i simply assume they pathfinder the place on the way out)
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Seth, what he is saying is that he would rather play the game, with the full alloted time, rather than have to worry that a GM is either going to be rushing the party through encounters to finish early, or have to call the game before the end, because he needs that last 20-30 minutes to do paperwork, rather than letting the game play at its own pace.
Would you rather play, say, The Blakros Matrimony in 3.5 hours, with a GM who is also making some of the players' play in a distracted fashion while they try to finish up his required paperwork before the end of the game, or have a full 4 hours time to RP that scenario, with all the players fully involved?
As with nosig, I would probably go looking for a table focused on playing the scenario, rather than focused on post-game paperwork during the game.
And what I am saying is that both he and now you are just assuming that the GM is going to intentionally do that. You should not be assuming that. You should assume the GM is going to give you a good experience with the game, and use as much time as necessary to do it (though still trying to get done within the time alloted to the scenario).
If either of you had played with Doug/other GM who says they are going to do the paperwork that way, that would be one thing, but from the way your posts are worded, you arent in that position. You are making assumptions about the play experience at a table you havent sat at.
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If either of you had played with Doug/other GM who says they are going to do the paperwork that way, that would be one thing, but from the way your posts are worded, you arent in that position. You are making assumptions about the play experience at a table you havent sat at.
They are not in that position becuase it is something they have stated that they are trying to avoid. I didn't read anything into it about them asuming that play would go a certain way. They are just pointing out that the several minutes per player has to come from somewhere, not to mention the time that players might have to spend getting their papers in order to the DM's satisfaction as Doug stated that he requires (which is more likely to come at the expense of paying attention in-game). They just don't want to risk that adversely affecting their single chance to play any given module.
I agree with them that it is a risk, especially when playing in a tightly scheduled slot like at most large events, which is probably where you are most likely to meet a DM who is a stickler for the chronicle filling out process.
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Seth, what he is saying is that he would rather play the game, with the full alloted time, rather than have to worry that a GM is either going to be rushing the party through encounters to finish early, or have to call the game before the end, because he needs that last 20-30 minutes to do paperwork, rather than letting the game play at its own pace.
Would you rather play, say, The Blakros Matrimony in 3.5 hours, with a GM who is also making some of the players' play in a distracted fashion while they try to finish up his required paperwork before the end of the game, or have a full 4 hours time to RP that scenario, with all the players fully involved?
As with nosig, I would probably go looking for a table focused on playing the scenario, rather than focused on post-game paperwork during the game.
And what I am saying is that both he and now you are just assuming that the GM is going to intentionally do that. You should not be assuming that. You should assume the GM is going to give you a good experience with the game, and use as much time as necessary to do it (though still trying to get done within the time alloted to the scenario).
If either of you had played with Doug/other GM who says they are going to do the paperwork that way, that would be one thing, but from the way your posts are worded, you arent in that position. You are making assumptions about the play experience at a table you havent sat at.
How is the GM going to "use as much time as necessary to do it (though still trying to get done within the time alloted to the scenario)", while still reserving 20-30 minutes of that allotted time for paperwork?
Compared to another GM who doesn't reserve those 20-30 minutes and thus has more time to work with?
Lots of scenarios can take less than the full 4 hours to be able to complete, even with a GM that isnt rushing the party along, and a party who isnt hurrying.
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Seth, what he is saying is that he would rather play the game, with the full alloted time, rather than have to worry that a GM is either going to be rushing the party through encounters to finish early, or have to call the game before the end, because he needs that last 20-30 minutes to do paperwork, rather than letting the game play at its own pace.
Would you rather play, say, The Blakros Matrimony in 3.5 hours, with a GM who is also making some of the players' play in a distracted fashion while they try to finish up his required paperwork before the end of the game, or have a full 4 hours time to RP that scenario, with all the players fully involved?
As with nosig, I would probably go looking for a table focused on playing the scenario, rather than focused on post-game paperwork during the game.
And what I am saying is that both he and now you are just assuming that the GM is going to intentionally do that. You should not be assuming that. You should assume the GM is going to give you a good experience with the game, and use as much time as necessary to do it (though still trying to get done within the time alloted to the scenario).
If either of you had played with Doug/other GM who says they are going to do the paperwork that way, that would be one thing, but from the way your posts are worded, you arent in that position. You are making assumptions about the play experience at a table you havent sat at.
No.
I was saying that 4.0 hours "with Doug/other GM" gaming is better than 3.5 hours "Doug/other GM" and 0.5 hours (or longer if there is an issue) of paperwork.Add to this that 4.0 hours of gaming with 6 other people is better than 4.0 hours of watching several players multi-task while they try to play the game and do paperwork.
Which would be more fun,
a) 4.0 hours of gaming (with all the "normal" distractions that might occur)?
or
b) 4.0 hour of gaming while the rest of the players do thier taxes?I pick "a".
Pick whatever you want, its your choice. Im not trying to dissuade you.
I just think you are extremely overestimating the amount of time it will take to fill out one of those sheets (either by the GM at the end, or by the player to make sure the last one is complete when he asks for it), and because of that overestimation, are declaring you will do what sounds to me like making a big deal about it* by leaving over something like this.
*Implying that leaving the table is a big deal, not that you would cause a big scene by doing so.
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Lots of scenarios can take less than the full 4 hours to be able to complete, even with a GM that isnt rushing the party along, and a party who isnt hurrying.Seth, what he is saying is that he would rather play the game, with the full alloted time, rather than have to worry that a GM is either going to be rushing the party through encounters to finish early, or have to call the game before the end, because he needs that last 20-30 minutes to do paperwork, rather than letting the game play at its own pace.
Would you rather play, say, The Blakros Matrimony in 3.5 hours, with a GM who is also making some of the players' play in a distracted fashion while they try to finish up his required paperwork before the end of the game, or have a full 4 hours time to RP that scenario, with all the players fully involved?
As with nosig, I would probably go looking for a table focused on playing the scenario, rather than focused on post-game paperwork during the game.
And what I am saying is that both he and now you are just assuming that the GM is going to intentionally do that. You should not be assuming that. You should assume the GM is going to give you a good experience with the game, and use as much time as necessary to do it (though still trying to get done within the time alloted to the scenario).
If either of you had played with Doug/other GM who says they are going to do the paperwork that way, that would be one thing, but from the way your posts are worded, you arent in that position. You are making assumptions about the play experience at a table you havent sat at.
How is the GM going to "use as much time as necessary to do it (though still trying to get done within the time alloted to the scenario)", while still reserving 20-30 minutes of that allotted time for paperwork?
Compared to another GM who doesn't reserve those 20-30 minutes and thus has more time to work with?
And, equally, lots of scenarios can take more than the full 4 hours to be able to complete, even with a GM who is rushing the party along, and a party that is hurrying.
Please don't make blanket statements that aren't really blanketing.
Sure, some scenarios can run short. Some secenarios, even, sometimes, the same scenarios, can run long.
Get a group who aren't heavy into role play? 3-01: The Frostfur Captives might run in two hours or less. Another group, heavy into RP, and the same scenario can run to 5 or 6 hours, easily.
Last Sunday, the table next to us, playing Severing Ties, finished early. Because they got a TPK with a bunch of unlucky Fort saves.
Our table, running Among the Dead, ran close to the 5 hour time limit, including the fast-version paperwork, despite having a synergistic team.