Vorpal Weapon vs. Greater Resolve: Does Vorpal Still Work?

[Duskblade]

Okay, I've been looking around the forums and I haven't found a good answer yet, so I was hoping you guys could help me out...

Pathfinder SRD wrote:

Vorpal- Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent's head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a slashing melee weapon. If you roll this special ability randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.

Now, the question I have is rather obvious: does negating the crit negate the vorpal effect? For instance, would the Greater Resolve ability from the Samurai class negate it...

Pathfinder SRD wrote:

Greater Resolve- At 9th level, a samurai can spend his resolve to negate some of his most grievous wounds. After a critical hit is confirmed against him, the samurai can spend one use of his resolve as an immediate action to treat that critical hit as a normal hit. Effects that only trigger on a critical hit do not trigger when the samurai uses this ability.

Also, do other abilities like heavy fortification, jingasa of fortunate soldier, or immunity to crits also negate vorpal as well? As always, any help is always appreciated. Thanks again.

[Joe M.]

James Jacobs says it does:

James Jacobs wrote:

Absynthyne wrote:

Hey JJ,

This came up recently and we're stumped.

Can a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier negate a vorpal?

Absolutely. It negates the critical hit, and the vorpal weapon's power only activates on a critical hit, so absolutely the jingasa can negate getting your head chopped off.

And he's correct. This follows the general principle that something that negates damage also negates effects carried with the damage. E.g. with damage reduction:

Damage Reduction wrote:

Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease.

[Kazaan]

Vorpal isn't triggered on a critical hit. It's triggered on a natural 20 with successful critical confirmation. There's a special clause in the Magic Weapons rule that states if a weapon triggers a special effect on a critical hit, such as Flaming Burst or Vorpal head chopping, it can still trigger against enemies that are immune to critical hits. You just roll to confirm as normal and what they are actually immune to is the extra damage from the crit, not the crit itself. Arguably, you could still crit a golem, but since the crit does no extra damage you disregard it and treat it as a normal strike. But the rules for Vorpal weapons include noting creatures like undead and golems that are normally immune to critical hits, that they can still lose their head, but they are merely unaffected by the loss. Put it all together, and we can logically conclude that, while a target may be immune to the extra damage dice from the Crit, they are not immune to having their head chopped off any more than a Golem or a Zombie... but the Samurai probably can't function very well without their head. What it means when it talks about effects triggered off a critical are mainly critical feats (ie. Bleeding Critical) and similar.

[wraithstrike]

Undead and constructs are not immune to crits in Pathfinder. Also being immune is not the same as being able to negate a crit. Being immune means the crit took place but you normally don't care. Negating the crir means the crit did not happen much like a feat that negates a hit means the hit didn't happen.

[Duskblade]

I guess my original question still stands: does immunity to crits negate vorpal, or does the ability to negate a crit negate vorpal? (or do both of them do/don't)

In addition: does greater resolve negate vorpal?

[Drakkiel]

If the crit is negated how can you have a successful confirmation? However I can honestly see it either way...but I'm leaning more toward it does

[wraithstrike]

No crit equals no vorpal in the case of negation. you can't confirm what did not happen . As for immunity that does not protect you from Vorpal because it is a special use of the critical rules. Remember being immune does not mean there was no critical.It means you get to ignore the affect under normal conditions.

[Diego Rossi]

Duskblade wrote:

I guess my original question still stands: does immunity to crits negate vorpal, or does the ability to negate a crit negate vorpal? (or do both of them do/don't)

In addition: does greater resolve negate vorpal?

Immunity to criticals don't negate the criticals, it only make them meaningless most of the time.

On the other hand, greater resolve say.

PRD wrote:

Greater Resolve- At 9th level, a samurai can spend his resolve to negate some of his most grievous wounds. After a critical hit is confirmed against him, the samurai can spend one use of his resolve as an immediate action to treat that critical hit as a normal hit. Effects that only trigger on a critical hit do not trigger when the samurai uses this ability.

A vorpal weapon require you to roll a natural 20 and then to confirm the critical. The samurai ability allow him to treat a critical as a normal it. I would say that it mean that he will transform the critical confirmation in a failure, so now the natural 20 is an unconfirmed critical and the vorpal ability is not triggered.

Same thing for fortified armor training and other abilities that turn a critical into a normal hit.