Disguise self is as far as I can see an effect that basically gives a +10 bonus on a disguise check, as well as cuts the time to make the disguise, while allowing for disbelief when interacted with. When making a disguise check, there is a table of modifiers ranging from "minor changes only" to "Disguised as different size category".
How do these modifiers apply when using Disguise self? Are they neglected, or is it as difficult to create an illusory disguise of an old man as it is to get into a costume and doing the right make up?
As for Alter Self (or threefold aspect), can you make yourself to a perfect look alike ("perfect" on disguise check), or just into a similar creature so you get the "minor changes only" bonus?
Threefold Aspect does not let you look like a specific third person, you look like yourself at a different age. Rules quote: "In each case, your appearance is your own at the appropriate age, rather than that of a new individual." There is no disguise check involved, but there might be a DC20 perception check to notice the "family resemblance". You could use disguise on top of 3fA to make that perception check more difficult. I would allow 3fA to negate the "Disguised as different age category" modifier to the disguise skill if you first used Threefold Aspect to assume the proper age for the further disguise you will be adopting.
With Alter Self, I would allow it to negate many of the penalties to the disguise skill, but it does NOT replace disguise if you want to be a particular individual. In other words, Alter Self can be used to become a generic female gnome, but if you want to become Lini, you're going to need disguise on top of it. Alter Self doesn't help you with your gear or outfit, either.
Disguise Self is basically providing a way to use makeup without having makeup and make your cloak appear to the be right color without actually dyeing it, but can't change the tactile feel of the cloak to silk if it's wool. All the modifiers from the disguise skill apply, but note that disguise self has limits that the disguise skill does not.
The Disguise Self spell gives a +10 bonus. Alter Self is a transmutation (polymorph) spell, which also gives a +10 bonus. You still have the penalties. So if you try something that has a -2 penalty with the spell, it becomes -2 +10 = +8.
Threefold Aspect is not a polymorph spell, even though it is a transmutation spell. I would allow it to negate the age category penalty if the disguise you want is the same age as the spell gives you. For example, if you are young, and use the spell to look middle aged, but disguise yourself as old, you would take the penalty.
/cevah
Ok, I didn't remember the rules of transmutation spells, so thanks for that, a flat +10 bonus is nice to know when becoming a specific person.
I think however as SlimGauge that alter self should negate most penalties, as you can use disguise to appear as a generic member of a race, and it seems alter self does this perfectly for you. If you alter self from medium human to small goblin, you now are a goblin in all physical aspects except for special attacks and abilities. Thus, I wonder, if I alter self to a young male goblin with large ears, and I want to disguise myself as a specific goblin with large ears, won't I get the +5 for "minor changes only"?
If threefold aspect can remove some penalties, I think alter self should be able to do that also, although it would be easier to just handle the +10 bonus.
Ok, I didn't remember the rules of transmutation spells, so thanks for that, a flat +10 bonus is nice to know when becoming a specific person.
It is a flat +10, but for a generic disguise. To be a specific person still applies all penalties as normal.
- Disguise .. Disguise Check Modifier
- Minor details only .. +5
- Disguised as different gender(1) .. –2
- Disguised as different race(1) .. –2
- Disguised as different age category(1) .. –2(2)
- Disguised as different size category(1) .. -10
(2) Per step of difference between your actual age category and your disguised age category. The steps are: young (younger than adulthood), adulthood, middle age, old, and venerable.
If you are impersonating a particular individual, those who know what that person looks like get a bonus on their Perception checks according to the table below. Furthermore, they are automatically considered to be suspicious of you, so opposed checks are always called for.
- Familiarity .. Viewer’s Perception Check Bonus
- Recognizes on sight .. +4
- Friends or associates .. +6
- Close friends .. +8
- Intimate .. +10
I think however as SlimGauge that alter self should negate most penalties, as you can use disguise to appear as a generic member of a race, and it seems alter self does this perfectly for you. If you alter self from medium human to small goblin, you now are a goblin in all physical aspects except for special attacks and abilities. Thus, I wonder, if I alter self to a young male goblin with large ears, and I want to disguise myself as a specific goblin with large ears, won't I get the +5 for "minor changes only"?
The spell gives a +10 bonus due to being a polymorph spell. It does not gain additional bonuses to offset the penalties for other things just because the spell lets you change size. That was already in the +10. You would get the +5 minor changes if you looked like another human (if you started out human). Using the spell to make a human look like a goblin results in: +10(spell) -2(race change) -10(size change) = -2.
If threefold aspect can remove some penalties, I think alter self should be able to do that also, although it would be easier to just handle the +10 bonus.
Threefold aspect does not add or remove anything relative to disguise. What it does is change the base age for calculating the age difference of disguise.
/cevah
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The spell gives a +10 bonus due to being a polymorph spell. It does not gain additional bonuses to offset the penalties for other things just because the spell lets you change size. That was already in the +10. You would get the +5 minor changes if you looked like another human (if you started out human). Using the spell to make a human look like a goblin results in: +10(spell) -2(race change) -10(size change) = -2.
You're not disguised as a different size category, you are a different size category, so you don't get the -10. Race change penalty would still apply, since you still have the human subtype.
So what you're saying is that if I use alter self from a human to a goblin, without being trained in disguise (+10 from alter self, -2 from different race -8 for different size, total +0), at least half of everyone I meet should be able to recognize that I am not in fact a goblin?
Disguise self is an illusion that you have changed forms. Alter Self actually changes your form. That is the difference. It doesn't say anything about using alter self to assume the form of a specific person so I would say unless you have a picture of that person or their dead body you probably wouldn't be able to do it without a disguise check. You wouldn't need a disguise check to fool someone into thinking you are a goblin with alter self because you actually are a goblin. Alter self is the same as beast shape but for humanoids.
So it is established that with alter self I can become an actual (venerable female) goblin, no disguise involved? And that I then can make a disguise on top of that, getting me the "minor changes only" bonus?
The new question in that case is where the +10 from alter self being a polymorph spell comes in. If I use alter self and disguise (possibly threefold aspect) to become a particular venerable female goblin, do the +10s stack? Do I simply ignore the penalties due to the transmutations? Must I choose between the +5 for minor changes only and the +10 from alter self, or does one trumph the other? Maybe if you alter yourself to become a generic venerable female goblin, and then use disguise self to look like a particular such, then you will be a similar goblin already and the minor changes only will apply?
I don't think RAW is clear on this, so I want to hear your opinions and rulings. It would be ok if alter self only gave a flat +10 bonus, no penalty discarded, as even though you physically become a goblin, you don't necessarily know how to walk or talk like one. But I'm not sure why it should be more difficult to look like a goblin than to look like a dwarf or and elf if the physical part is already done so I opt more for removing certain disguise penalties.
Also, I'm not sure if alter self can actually make you old, or just look like old. There should be stat changes with that, just like the size.
So it is established that with alter self I can become an actual (venerable female) goblin, no disguise involved? And that I then can make a disguise on top of that, getting me the "minor changes only" bonus?
Nope. The spell gives +10. It gives the size change. It does not give age change, sex change, or race change. You are no longer making minor changes, since you are changing three things. Minor change is for same race, same sex, same size, same age category.
The new question in that case is where the +10 from alter self being a polymorph spell comes in. If I use alter self and disguise (possibly threefold aspect) to become a particular venerable female goblin, do the +10s stack? Do I simply ignore the penalties due to the transmutations? Must I choose between the +5 for minor changes only and the +10 from alter self, or does one trumph the other? Maybe if you alter yourself to become a generic venerable female goblin, and then use disguise self to look like a particular such, then you will be a similar goblin already and the minor changes only will apply?
The pair of +10s would stack.
Threefold aspect gives age change. If your result is the same age category as that spell gives, you don't take the penalty for different age category.
You keep all penalties you have. Disguise Self does not remove any penalty. Alter Self can change your size, allowing you to remove that penalty if the result of the disguise and the spell have the same size. Threefold Aspect does the same, but in respect to age.
I don't think RAW is clear on this, so I want to hear your opinions and rulings. It would be ok if alter self only gave a flat +10 bonus, no penalty discarded, as even though you physically become a goblin, you don't necessarily know how to walk or talk like one. But I'm not sure why it should be more difficult to look like a goblin than to look like a dwarf or and elf if the physical part is already done so I opt more for removing certain disguise penalties.
It is just as difficult to look like a goblin as a dwarf, if you are neither one. AS can get you past the size difference only, and TA the age aspect only.
Also, I'm not sure if alter self can actually make you old, or just look like old. There should be stat changes with that, just like the size.
You look old. For the stat changes, that is what the check is for. Can you "fake" it? Sure. How well? Make a check.
/cevah