High INT big head. Good for stuffed skull recipes.
High WIS low cortisol. Good for delicate seasoning dishes.
High CHA sculpted face muscles. Compost head, cook body.
I'm working on a total class overhaul right now that will have all arcane casters using CHA instead of INT for a casting stat. The way I see it, based on the fluff descriptions for stats this is the way it SHOULD be anyway. I should have it ready for play test with my group by next weekend. I've had just about enough of seeing CHA as the universal dump stat myself.
Have you looked at Super Genius Games' Magister class? If I'm reading you right, it looks pretty close to what you want to do.
I'm working on a total class overhaul right now that will have all arcane casters using CHA instead of INT for a casting stat. The way I see it, based on the fluff descriptions for stats this is the way it SHOULD be anyway. I should have it ready for play test with my group by next weekend. I've had just about enough of seeing CHA as the universal dump stat myself.Have you looked at Super Genius Games' Magister class? If I'm reading you right, it looks pretty close to what you want to do.
If it's online free somewhere and you don't mind posting a link I'll have a look. I'm still trying to figure out some menchanics and any new ideas could be helpful.
If it's online free somewhere and you don't mind posting a link I'll have a look. I'm still trying to figure out some menchanics and any new ideas could be helpful.I'm working on a total class overhaul right now that will have all arcane casters using CHA instead of INT for a casting stat. The way I see it, based on the fluff descriptions for stats this is the way it SHOULD be anyway. I should have it ready for play test with my group by next weekend. I've had just about enough of seeing CHA as the universal dump stat myself.Have you looked at Super Genius Games' Magister class? If I'm reading you right, it looks pretty close to what you want to do.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/magist er
I am not exaggerating when I say, with this class, I may never again need another spellcasting class. I would happily use this for the rest of my gaming life.
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If it's online free somewhere and you don't mind posting a link I'll have a look. I'm still trying to figure out some menchanics and any new ideas could be helpful.I'm working on a total class overhaul right now that will have all arcane casters using CHA instead of INT for a casting stat. The way I see it, based on the fluff descriptions for stats this is the way it SHOULD be anyway. I should have it ready for play test with my group by next weekend. I've had just about enough of seeing CHA as the universal dump stat myself.Have you looked at Super Genius Games' Magister class? If I'm reading you right, it looks pretty close to what you want to do.I am not exaggerating when I say, with this class, I may never again need another spellcasting class. I would happily use this for the rest of my gaming life.
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funny thing is... I almost universally play characters with high charisma and also almost universally dump wisdom.
I really don't see why so many people feel charisma is such a easily dumpable stat. It is situational of course, but hom many stat aren't?
Actually I feel almost every class in the game have a better choice as a dump stat.
bards, paladins, sorcerers and other cha caster aside...
rogues and clerics should always have it as a second stat.
wizards are better off dumping wis than cha, expecially if they have hopes to have any profiency in enchantment and conjuration.
as the stat that governs handle animal is optimal for druids and rangers,
that leaves only fighters, monks and barbarians out of the picture.
but even then ... fighters and barbarians benefits more from dumping int and putting their single point in the one most useful skill they have, intimidate.
the only core class that should dump cha is monk. every other class has better stats to dump.
there are more classes that could easily dump str or wis or int than classes that can dump cha
The counter to this argument is that a shy person might want to play the super-charismatic bard and might not be able to in many cases if they have to do it for real.Charisma suffers from...well, it suffers from being interpreted as "the prettiness stat."
It has potential for much more, though this seems rarely realized.
Honestly, there isn't MUCH about Charisma that I think SHOULD have a 'stat' attached to it. Force of personality? Looks? Leadership ability?
All of those should be in the way the player is playing the character... There have been a LOT of situations (and a lot of threads) about people who either can't or won't 'play the stat' they chose...
Cut it right out.
Make the Wisdom the divine casting stat again and just hand out appropriate bonuses or penalties, based on what a player says or does in social situations.
The counter-counter to that would be they still can. Just tell the DM that you brought the NPC in question XXXX as a peace offering gift, compliment his fine house and wife and then make a deal.
If the shy person doesn't want to act it out and just let the dice do the work... then that's whats happening anyway. The description of HOW your smooth-talking someone doesn't really need the PLAYER to be smooth-talking.
Hoenstly there have been many times that I would have preferred to let my paladins Diplomacy ranks trump what 'I' was actually SAYING ;)
You have dice, and you have skill ranks... we COULD get by without the Chr stat itself.
I always played the two as book smart vs. street smart.
Mehh... still overly complicates things. Intelligence and wisdom are some of the hardest things to roleplay if the numbers don't exactly match up to your OWN INT or Wisdom.
Trying to quantify what/where/how knowledge comes from just leads to multiple angry threads about characters being 'too dumb' to flank... or knowledge doesn't matter, base INT does... or any other number of things. ;)
Frankly I've seen some games just simplify things down to 'physical, mental, social' for 3 stats... There's no 'perfect' way, and honestly I like the game the way it is ;)
LinkifiedIf it's online free somewhere and you don't mind posting a link I'll have a look. I'm still trying to figure out some menchanics and any new ideas could be helpful.I'm working on a total class overhaul right now that will have all arcane casters using CHA instead of INT for a casting stat. The way I see it, based on the fluff descriptions for stats this is the way it SHOULD be anyway. I should have it ready for play test with my group by next weekend. I've had just about enough of seeing CHA as the universal dump stat myself.Have you looked at Super Genius Games' Magister class? If I'm reading you right, it looks pretty close to what you want to do.I am not exaggerating when I say, with this class, I may never again need another spellcasting class. I would happily use this for the rest of my gaming life.
This class combines all casting into one class, which is a bit different from the way I'm going. It's not bad and may be something to look at depending on how initial play testing goes.
I'd rather add things to the game to make all the stats "super stats", like Dexterity.
Strength is already pretty much there, with attack/damage/maneuvers, a couple skills, encumbrance, break/burst checks, and prerequisite for a number of feats. Takes a single feat to make it boost a third skill (Intimidate).
Constitution, while lacking a large list of common things, has some of the most important ones: Fort save, hitpoints, negative hp before death, and a few other things (avoiding non-lethal damage effects, drowning, and qualifying for a few feats). It's also one of the few that if you are dropped to 0 you are dead instead of just paralyzed or comatose.
So how to increase the three mental stats to "super" stat category.
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Intelligence already gives a bonus to languages, skill points in general, and a fairly wide list of good skills (and some middling ones). There's only two feats that need Int to qualify that I could readily find (Combat Expertise and Focused Shot).
Ideas:
- Add Intelligence to Initiative along with Dexterity. Acting first feels like it should be just as much about being quick thinking as it is quick moving.
- Adds bonus damage to single target, or otherwise non-area damage spells (so ranged touch like scorching ray).
- Split Perception into two skills: Notice (Wis) and Search (Int) giving a fairly important skill to Int again... like back in 3e.
Wisdom gives a bonus to the ever-important Will save, a smattering of decent skills (Perception one of them). Needed for a few feats, but otherwise really only Monk and Divine caster focused stat.
Ideas:
- If doing the Int change to Perception, then Wisdom loses a little being only a Notice skill (still strong, allows acting in surprise round, etc, but some loss in functionality).
- Move ranged Attack bonus from Dexterity to Wisdom. Both have equal fluff validity (hand-eye coordination vs actually seeing your target). This actually lowers Dexterity slightly. Perhaps make a feat for using Dex instead of Wis for ranged attacks (similar to Weapon Finesse), making Dex the overall "alternate attack" stat.
- Add a morale-based game mechanic, and have Wisdom add to the defensive check/stat.
Charisma currently only gives a bonus to a selection of social-based skills and Use Magic Device. Oh, and opposed checks to influence folks (although I've only ever seen that on a couple spells). Undead use it for hitpoints instead of Con, but that's getting really niche.
Ideas:
- Adds bonus damage to area effect spells.
- Add a morale-based game mechanic, and have Charisma add to the attack check. I would tie this into Dragon and Outsider auras, only make it an automatic thing and simply give them a supercharge to the mechanic.
It makes sense that a really large, powerful creature charging you after killing a friend might have some in-game effect on your character. It also gives a good reason for a martial character to boost Charisma if he can influence folks this way (especially if it makes spell-casting harder for his enemies).
- Add a reputation game-mechanic and have Charisma grant greater influence. Quick thoughts: run it like a knowledge or profession check; helping: gain favors, information, bonus to initial attitude; hindering: losing out on help, lowering initial attitude.
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My 2 cents on the matter.
My preferred solution would be to clean up the point buy system and have different stats cost different amounts based on their usefulness/power. DEX would simply be more expensive than CHA.
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Charisma currently only gives a bonus to a selection of social-based skills and Use Magic Device. Oh, and opposed checks to influence folks (although I've only ever seen that on a couple spells). Undead use it for hitpoints instead of Con, but that's getting really niche.
oh boy... if that's how people sum up charisma is no wonder that people dump it.
Charisma is the single most common caster stat. Is the stat used for the channel energy ability (both to determine it's effectiveness and the daily uses). And gives bonus to a wide array of skills that are crucial to most characters. Handle animal for rangers and druids. Bluff for rogue's feints. Use magic device for pretty much everyone who can use it (is the single most useful skill in the game), Intimidate for pretty much everyone to stack one upon the other fear effects which pretty much wins you an encounter.
If it's online free somewhere and you don't mind posting a link I'll have a look. I'm still trying to figure out some menchanics and any new ideas could be helpful.I'm working on a total class overhaul right now that will have all arcane casters using CHA instead of INT for a casting stat. The way I see it, based on the fluff descriptions for stats this is the way it SHOULD be anyway. I should have it ready for play test with my group by next weekend. I've had just about enough of seeing CHA as the universal dump stat myself.Have you looked at Super Genius Games' Magister class? If I'm reading you right, it looks pretty close to what you want to do.http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/magist er
I am not exaggerating when I say, with this class, I may never again need another spellcasting class. I would happily use this for the rest of my gaming life.
Wow. How have I not seen this?
Thanks for pointing it out. I agree, it covers the "guy who uses magic" class pretty thoroughly.
I understand ...
Cha as ability to understand and relate to others (thus the basis for Intimidate, Bluff and Diplomacy). It doesn't IMHO have ANYTHING to do with physical appearance.
Wis is common sense and willpower (thus the basis for Survival and Perception)
Int is problem-solving ability and ability to conceptualise (thus the basis for Appraise and SpellCraft and for Wizard's spells - I guess I can buy that).
... which was fine, until
- Sorcerers, Paladins and Bards started casting from their Charisma ... WHY? I can see it for Bard maybe, but not the others. If it's to do with willpower, then the traditional AD&D etc use of Wisdom makes more sense. I guess one of the game designers figured Wisdom was used by Clerics and Druids already, so they needed something different for Sorcerers.
However, the biggest difference you get from your Int, Wis and Cha skills is arguably in how you play your character - the roleplaying should be very different for characters with high, medium or low scores in each of these three stats.
And gives bonus to a wide array of skills that are crucial to most characters. Handle animal for rangers and druids. Bluff for rogue's feints. Use magic device for pretty much everyone who can use it (is the single most useful skill in the game), Intimidate for pretty much everyone to stack one upon the other fear effects which pretty much wins you an encounter.
In most cases, you're still better off boosting Int to get more skill points so you can buy those skills in the first place -- ranks very quickly outpace stat bonuses.
In most cases, you're still better off boosting Int to get more skill points so you can buy those skills in the first place -- ranks very quickly outpace stat bonuses.
That's actually a point I brought up in a recent thread I posted (Skill Diversification). I waffled on my original premise, but think when I next post I'll get back to it and stick to my guns.
When you look at the spread of skills, for example, you end up with the following:
Skills
Strength: Climb, Swim (strong arguments can be made for swim being based off Constitution instead of Strength)
Dexterity: Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Stealth
Constitution: (Concentration*, Endurance**)
Intelligence: Appraise, Craft, Knowledge (all), Linguistics, Spellcraft
Wisdom: Heal, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, Survival
Charisma: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, Use Magic Device
* Removed in PF as a skill.
** Common homebrew skill to replace most Constitution checks.
My idea whats you acquired skill points based off the modifiers from your stats - spread the importance around. A Dex modifier of +3 would grant you 3 points to spend on Dexterity-related skills; +2 Charisma modifier would grant 2 points for Charisma-related skills, etc. (an alternative was modifiers from physical stats could be spent on physical skills, mental modifiers on mental skills - the negative modifiers from dump stats costing you related skill points in their category, for example)
The entire 3.X system is designed in such a way that it makes X or Y stat obviously superior to Z stat in many ways.
Wow. How have I not seen this?
Thanks for pointing it out. I agree, it covers the "guy who uses magic" class pretty thoroughly.
Very welcome. This class is just mana from heaven to me. Getting access to the cleric and druid spell lists without all their associated baggage, and as a spont caster? Love at first sight.
The biggest difference is that, as the words are usually defined,
- intelligence is mostly innate and somewhat acquired with study
- wisdom is slowly acquired with real-world experience
- charisma is using social skills to pass tests disguised as societal norms
In other words, as game mechanics INT and CHA should increase as skills, not ability scores, and should be used broadly to do "aid another" with your own skill use (by taking an extra few seconds, I make better conclusions about the noble's desires or how to impress this seacaptain).
Why wouldn't CHA affect how many target character can get amored with spells, feats etc?