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The mineralogy and metallurgy stuff here is really fascinating, it's not something I know anywhere near enough about myself.
I've always had this interest in anything connected to getting a medieval (or even older) society to modern tech in as few steps as possible (especially where time travel or otherwise bringing members of future society into older ones is involved - think A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court), so this is really cool stuff to read :)
David Weber's Safehold is based largely on this idea (with some changes). Humanity is reduced to a relatively basic agrarian medieval lifestyle, and an android from humanities distant (and glorious) past is determined to chang that.
Taylor Anderson's Destroyermen series also touches on this idea, though it is more fantastical in many ways and is in others a retelling of World War II. The premise is a US naval destroyer sails into an alternate earth where they encounter a peaceful nautical species of 'monkey-cat' like humanoids which they ally with to fight raptor (of Jurassic Park fame) descended monsters and a Japanese Battlecruiser which allies with the creatures.
Weber's Ring of Fire series is set in 1632 and similarly deals with people going back in time and advancing the timetable of advancement.
All lean more on the military aspect of things, but also touch on more general advances and needs for an industrializing society. You might take a look.
But the civilization is gone for some time--those rusty automobiles are rusted away, the iron oxide dispersed.
I suspect that the graveyards full of rusty automobiles will make some of the highest quality iron ore anyone has ever seen.
Er, how many millions of years has civilization been gone for?
But the civilization is gone for some time--those rusty automobiles are rusted away, the iron oxide dispersed.
I suspect that the graveyards full of rusty automobiles will make some of the highest quality iron ore anyone has ever seen.Er, how many millions of years has civilization been gone for?
Enough to have a good dust storm and a rainy spring... about 1.0x10^-3 million years.
What about Pyramid building days of Egypt?
Given that was about 2400 BC, either late Neolithic or early Bronze Age.
Enough to have a good dust storm and a rainy spring... about 1.0x10^-3 million years.But the civilization is gone for some time--those rusty automobiles are rusted away, the iron oxide dispersed.
I suspect that the graveyards full of rusty automobiles will make some of the highest quality iron ore anyone has ever seen.Er, how many millions of years has civilization been gone for?
So, just enough time to bury the cars until a few feet of dirt and let them rust in pieces. After a thousand years, there will be a several foot layer containing awesomely iron-enriched soil.
I can only infer you've never worked in archeology....
Enough to have a good dust storm and a rainy spring... about 1.0x10^-3 million years.But the civilization is gone for some time--those rusty automobiles are rusted away, the iron oxide dispersed.
I suspect that the graveyards full of rusty automobiles will make some of the highest quality iron ore anyone has ever seen.Er, how many millions of years has civilization been gone for?
So, just enough time to bury the cars until a few feet of dirt and let them rust in pieces. After a thousand years, there will be a several foot layer containing awesomely iron-enriched soil.
I can only infer you've never worked in archeology....
I can only assume you have never seen a steel body car rust in half (by which I mean become two separate halves.) And soil high in ferrous oxide isn't exactly the kinds of useable mineral ore that we are talking about.
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Told you I was slow....here is what I currently have.
The mass of ragged and exhausted Refugees staggered down the passage between the dimensions , fleeing what most of them only knew as "The Enemy". The Refugees were comprised of over two dozen different species of sapient creatures from more than a score of different Prime Material planes. Some three hundred or so spell casters lead the Refugees down the passage, while far to the rear an large army of martial and spell caster types fought a delaying action against "The Enemy".
The Refugees were starting to feel like they had been fleeing down the passage forever, when a halt was finally called. The passage between the dimensions was forty feet high and eighty feet across. The spell casters at the head of the Refugees conversed for several minutes before separating into three groups and moving back down the passage to divide the mass of creatures roughly into three groups. Once the Refugees were divided up, two-thirds of each spell casting group started the same ritual against the passage wall nearest to their Refugee group. As the ritual progressed runes could be seen forming an arch twenty feet high and fifty feet wide. Ten minutes into the first ritual, the remaining spell casters in each group started a second ritual inside the first ritual.
Nearly two hours later the rituals were completed. Upon completion of the rituals three gateways opened to a Prime Material plane and bridges of solid golden light descended the thousand feet to the ground. The spell casters were surprised that the three gates opened to vastly different location on the Prime Material plane instead of the few hundred feet apart they were in the passageway, but there was no time to try and figure out what went wrong, so they gave the signal to start the Refugees moving down the bridges. Some of the Refugees noticed that the first one hundred feet of the light bridge had a lens like effect so that thing in the distance looked closer and clearer. As the last of the Refugees left the passage the apprentice spell caster followed carrying tomes, libris, and grimoires. Just before the gateways closed roughly twenty or so divine beings emerged, five of which coalesced out of the lens effect, and moved off towards the "Heavens".
Those who took the time to look around while in the lens effect, noticed that the area the gateway opened to was a vast, well watered, rolling plains with high snow capped mountains to the north, east, and south. To the west could be seen a large body of water, possibly an ocean. To the north east was what looked like a massive forest. To the south was a large green mass that could be a swamp or marsh. A chains of six lakes ran from the north east to the south west. Also in the mountains to the south, beyond the wetlands, could be seen three volcanoes. Scattered across the plains were clumps of woods.
Like I said...I'm not to good at getting things from my mind into print.
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For those who are still interested in how this is going.
There are a few changes to the beinging parts, so I'm posting all of what I have so far.
The mass of ragged and exhausted Refugees staggered down the passage between the dimensions , fleeing what most of them only knew as "The Enemy". The Refugees were comprised of over two dozen different species of sapient creatures from more than a score of different Prime Material planes. Some three hundred or so spell casters lead the Refugees down the passage, while far to the rear an large army of martial and spell caster types fought a delaying action against "The Enemy".
The Refugees were starting to feel like they had been fleeing down the passage forever, when a halt was finally called. The passage between the dimensions was forty feet high and eighty feet across. The spell casters at the head of the Refugees conversed for several minutes before separating into three groups and moving back down the passage to divide the mass of creatures roughly into three groups. Once the Refugees were divided up, two-thirds of each spell casting group started the same ritual against the passage wall nearest to their Refugee group. As the ritual progressed runes could be seen forming an arch twenty feet high and fifty feet wide. Ten minutes into the first ritual, the remaining spell casters in each group started a second ritual inside the first ritual.
Nearly two hours later the rituals were completed. Upon completion of the rituals three gateways opened to a Prime Material plane and bridges of solid golden light descended the thousand feet to the ground. The spell casters were surprised that the three gates opened to vastly different location on the Prime Material plane instead of the few hundred feet apart they were in the passageway, but there was no time to try and figure out what went wrong, so they gave the signal to start the Refugees moving down the bridges. Some of the Refugees noticed that the first one hundred feet of the light bridge had a lens like effect so that thing in the distance looked closer and clearer. As the last of the Refugees left the passage the apprentice spell caster followed carrying tomes, libris, and grimoires. Just before the gateways closed roughly twenty or so divine beings emerged, five of which coalesced out of the lens effect, and moved off towards the "Heavens".
Those who took the time to look around while in the lens effect, noticed that the area the gateway opened to was a vast, well watered, rolling plains with high snow capped mountains to the north, east, and south. To the west could be seen a large body of water, possibly an ocean. To the north east was what looked like a massive forest. To the south was a large green mass that could be a swamp or marsh. A chains of six lakes ran from the north east to the south west. Also in the mountains to the south, beyond the wetlands, could be seen three volcanoes. Scattered across the plains were clumps of woods of various sizes. In the sky could be seen a large moon and two small rings.
The Refugees, these are just rough numbers:
Seventy thousand elves, sixty thousand dwarves, fifty thousand halflings, forty-five thousand gnomes, forty thousand saurig (lizardmen), and two-hundred fifty thousand humans. Twenty thousand winged leonine creatures of various types flew north from the gateways never even using the light bridge. The human ethnicities are (I'll use earth equivalences) sixty thousand-ish western europeans, sixty thousand-ish north africans, sixty thousand-ish east asians, twenty thousand-ish north american indians, twenty thousand-ish central american indians, and thirty thousand-ish other ethnic types never more than a few hundred in any group.
A discussion was held by leader types, comprehension spells were cast, to decide on the best thing to do now. The lizardmen did not join in, they just moved off toward the south and the wetlands seen there. After a day of talks it was decided that smaller groups would have a better chance than if they all stayed in one group. To that end the elves and halflings, with a few thousand from the other ethnic group, moved off toward the large forest to the north east. The dwarves and the gnomes, with a few thousand from the other ethnic group, moved toward the mountains to the east.
The europeans, with a few thousand from the other ethnic group, headed north and somewhat west toward a hilly lightly forested area. The asians, with a few thousand from the other ethnic group, moved off south and east toward a couple lakes. The africans, with a few thousand from the other ethnic group, headed west. And the american indians, with a few thousand from the other ethnic group, headed far west toward a great plain with large herds of beasts.
The first hundred years:
Ten percent of the Refugees died from sickness and hunger before a source of food more reliable then foraging, domesticated animals and plants, could get up and running. Reliable ore sources weren't found until the end of the first century. Magic above second level were found to be dangerous to cast. Those who tried found that they either failed out right or harmed the caster. Divine caster found that, while they could still feel a connection to their deity, it was like the deity was busy. Contact with the rest of the Refugees was sporadic as the settlements ended up being far apart. An interesting discovery of dead magic areas surrounded by lesser magic zones were found near the end of the first century. The largest zone found was an area of two thousand foot radius. There was also several other zones found that were significantly smaller in size. The lesser magic zones around the dead zones, lessened by tiers of twenty-five percent ( so when you neared a dead zone the power of magic lessened to seventy-five percent, then fifty percent, then twenty-five percent and finally to dead magic). Each tier of lessened magic was about fifty percent of the area of the dead zone. Attacks of dangerous creatures happened but were rare.
The second hundred years:
With a reliable sources of metals, tools become more sturdy and durable. Building with quarried stone was now possible so walls and building were now more sturdy. Magic users came to the conclusion that the old way of magic doesn't work here, so a new way needed to be found. Zero level to second level spells worked for the most part but a new way to access third level and above spells was needed. Divine casters could still feel a connection but that was it. They had access to zero through second levels spells and that was it. Contact with the other groups of Refugees became steady and trading was established. At the end of the second century a massive earthquake shook land. Hundreds were killed and buildings were damaged. Shortly after the earthquake a plague swept the land. Those who contracted the plague grew sicker week by week until at the end of two months they died screaming in agony. Several months after the plague showed itself, a way to defeat the plague was found purely by accident. A caravan bringing some sick people to the temple in the capital, stopped to camp over night in a dead magic zone. By morning those who were sick had improved noticeably and after a few days in the dead zone they had fully recovered. With a little trial and error it was found that a person with the plague who recovered in the dead zone and then moved to the first tier out of the dead zone got sick again. But the sickness was of a lesser effect and they could again recover. Then they could move to the next tier and so on until they were in a normal magic area and could recover there and finally defeat the plague. The Kingdom of [ ] was the one who discovered how to beat the plague. Messages were sent to the other kingdoms as quickly as possible describing what was needed to beat the plague. Stopping the plague almost came too late for most of the Refugees. The plague killed over fifty percent of the populations of the various kingdoms, this number included nearly ninety percent of the divine and arcane casters.
I rambled some....
let me know what you think so far.
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For those who said they'd be interested in how it comes out.
Here is the final draft. There are changes through out so I'm posting the whole thing.
I'd like to hear comments. It is quite long.
The mass of ragged and exhausted Refugees staggered down the passage between the dimensions , fleeing what most of them only knew as "The Enemy". The Refugees were comprised of over two dozen different species of sapient creatures from more than a score of different Prime Material planes. Some three hundred or so spell casters lead the Refugees down the passage, while far to the rear an large army of martial and spell caster types fought a delaying action against "The Enemy".
The Refugees were starting to feel like they had been fleeing down the passage forever, when a halt was finally called. The passage between the dimensions was forty feet high and eighty feet across. The spell casters at the head of the Refugees conversed for several minutes before separating into three groups and moving back down the passage to divide the mass of creatures roughly into three groups. Once the Refugees were divided up, two-thirds of each spell casting group started the same ritual against the passage wall nearest to their Refugee group. As the ritual progressed runes could be seen forming an arch twenty feet high and fifty feet wide. Ten minutes into the first ritual, the remaining spell casters in each group started a second ritual inside the first ritual.
Nearly two hours later the rituals were completed. Upon completion of the rituals three gateways opened to a Prime Material plane and bridges of solid golden light descended the thousand feet to the ground. The spell casters were surprised that the three gates opened to vastly different location on the Prime Material plane instead of the few hundred feet apart they were in the passageway, but there was no time to try and figure out what went wrong, so they gave the signal to start the Refugees moving down the bridges. Some of the Refugees noticed that the first one hundred feet of the light bridge had a lens like effect so that things in the distance looked closer and clearer. As the last of the Refugees left the passage the apprentice spell caster followed carrying tomes, libris, and grimoires. Just before the gateways closed roughly twenty or so divine beings emerged, five of which coalesced out of the lens effect, and moved off towards the "Heavens".
Those who took the time to look around while in the lens effect, noticed that the area the gateway opened to was a vast, well watered, rolling plains with high snow capped mountains to the north, east, and south. To the west could be seen a large body of water, possibly an ocean. To the north east was what looked like a massive forest. To the south was a large green mass that could be a swamp or marsh. A chains of six lakes ran from the north east to the south west. Also in the mountains to the south, beyond the wetlands, could be seen three volcanoes. Scattered across the plains were clumps of woods of various sizes. In the sky could be seen a large moon and two small rings.
The Refugees, these are just rough numbers:
Seventy thousand elves, sixty thousand dwarves, fifty thousand halflings, forty-five thousand gnomes, forty thousand saurig (lizardmen), and two-hundred fifty thousand humans. Twenty thousand winged leonine creatures of various types flew north from the gateways never even using the light bridge. The human ethnicities are (I'll use earth equivalences) sixty thousand-ish western europeans, sixty thousand-ish north africans, sixty thousand-ish east asians, twenty thousand-ish north american indians, twenty thousand-ish central american indians, and thirty thousand-ish other ethnic types never more than a few hundred of any type.
A discussion was held by leader types to decide on the best thing to do now. The lizardmen did not join in, they just moved off toward the south and the wetlands seen there. After a day of talks it was decided that smaller groups would have a better chance than if they all stayed in one large group. To that end the elves and halflings, with a few thousand from the other ethnic group, moved off toward the large forest to the north east. The dwarves and the gnomes, with a few thousand from the other ethnic group, moved toward the mountains to the east.
The europeans, with a few thousand from the other ethnic group, headed north and somewhat west toward a hilly lightly forested area. The asians, with a few thousand from the other ethnic group, moved off south and east toward a couple lakes. The africans, with a few thousand from the other ethnic group, headed west. And the american indians, with a few thousand from the other ethnic group, headed far west toward a great plain with large herds of beasts.
The first hundred years:
Ten percent of the Refugees died from sickness and hunger before a source of food more reliable then foraging, domesticated animals and plants, could get up and running. Reliable ore sources weren't found until the end of the first century. Travel west found that the land ended in a two hundred foot sheer cliff that plunged into the sea without any sign of a beach. The last twenty miles of land before the coast is barren rock. Magic above second level were found to be dangerous to cast. Those who tried found that they either failed out right or harmed the caster. Divine caster found that, while they could still feel a connection to their deity, it was like the deity was busy. Contact with the rest of the Refugees was sporadic as the settlements ended up being far apart. An interesting discovery of dead magic areas surrounded by lesser magic zones were found near the end of the first century. The largest zone found was an area of two thousand foot radius. There were several dozen zones near as large scattered around the land, also several hundred other zones were found that were significantly smaller in size. The lesser magic zones around the dead zones, lessened by tiers of twenty-five percent ( so when you neared a dead zone the power of magic lessened to seventy-five percent, then fifty percent, then twenty-five percent and finally to dead magic). Each tier of lessened magic was about fifty percent of the area of the dead zone. Attacks of dangerous creatures happened but were rare. The lands settled by the europeans became known as the Kingdom of Maloran, the asian settled land was called the Kingdom of Ontia, the african settlement was called the Kingdom of Emvany, the giant redwood forest settled by the elf became known as Lainwald, the mountain range settled by the dwarves was called Ravenor, the wetland area was called Kingdom of Qyseth, the indian lands were called Sevaleand, the halflings settled into the elf lands and the gnomes settled into the dwarven mountain range. The mountains surrounding the kingdoms proved so far to be impassable.
The second hundred years:
With a reliable sources of metals, tools become more sturdy and durable. Building with quarried stone was now possible so walls and building were now more sturdy. Magic users came to the conclusion that the old way of magic doesn't work here, so a new way needed to be found. Zero level to second level spells worked for the most part but a new way to access third level and above spells was needed. Divine casters could still feel a connection but that was it. They had access to zero through second levels spells and that was it. Contact with the other groups of Refugees became steady and trading was established. At the end of the second century a massive earthquake shook the land. Hundreds were killed and buildings were damaged. Shortly after the earthquake a plague swept the land. Those who contracted the plague grew sicker week by week until at the end of two months they died screaming in agony. Several months after the plague showed itself, a way to defeat the plague was found purely by accident. A caravan bringing some sick people to the temple in the capital, stopped to camp over night in a dead magic zone. By morning those who were sick had improved noticeably and after a few days in the dead zone they had fully recovered. With a little trial and error it was found that a person with the plague who recovered in the dead zone and then moved to the first tier out of the dead zone got sick again. But the sickness was of a lesser effect and they could again recover. Then they could move to the next tier and so on until they were in a normal magic area and could recover there and finally defeat the plague. The Kingdom of Emvany was the one who discovered how to beat the plague. Messages were sent to the other kingdoms as quickly as possible describing what was needed to beat the plague. Stopping the plague almost came too late for most of the Refugees. The plague killed over fifty percent of the populations of the various kingdoms, this number included nearly ninety percent of the divine and arcane casters.
ateau, delflord (dwarven king), lainalor (elf lord/king) these are just notes.
The third and fourth hundred years:
With the heavy loss of life from the plague, and damage from the earthquake, it the kingdoms near a hundred years to recover. The common people of the lands came to rely more on herblore and alchemy as the gods favor seems turned elsewhere. The earthquake uncovered four city sized and a dozen or so smaller sized ruins that had been buried. Exploring the ruins turned out to be extremely dangerous as it was found that undead of various types resided in the ruins. It took decades to clear out the ruins before they could be fully explored.
Exploration and research into the ruins found some interesting things. A discovery of old maps lead the researchers to believe that the lands they had settled used to be a large island with a massive extinct volcano on its western border. Also hundreds of magic items of a variety of powers were found. The tech level of the old civilization on the map was equivalent to twelfth century europe with mid-level magic.
Toward the end of the three hundred year mark the kingdoms finally started to grow again, if slowly. Near the end of the four hundred year mark trade with the other kingdoms was re-established.
The fifth hundred years:
The beginning of this century was marked by two great earthquakes. One was in the eastern mountains south of the dwarf kingdom. The other was on the coast near the southern mountain range. During this century was an up serge in religion as the churches announced the return of the gods, although trust in herblore and alchemy was still very strong. Later in the century the key to the next tier of arcane magic was discovered. So arcane casters of high enough level could now cast up to fifth level spells. The earthquake on the coast had caused a significant change in the southern coastal area. Several miles of coastal cliff had collapsed into the sea. Toward the end of the five hundred year mark a pass through the mountains was discovered south of the dwarf kingdom.
Present Day:
Start of the campaign it is year 623 AA (After Arrival).
I've been following. I'm kind of swamped, mentally, right now, but I am interested in this. Later, probably.
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Glad you stuck with thus as nd kept working on it.
Have you considered vaults being found. Stuff like prepper hide aways with some still useful supplies. Or huge government instilations that could be a dungeon sized site to explore.
Maybe supply cache that a space faring race left behind for a return trip.
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Glad you stuck with thus as nd kept working on it.
Have you considered vaults being found. Stuff like prepper hide aways with some still useful supplies. Or huge government instilations that could be a dungeon sized site to explore.
Maybe supply cache that a space faring race left behind for a return trip.
I pretty much have buried cities and town as the 'vaults' your thinking of. The civilizations of this prime material plane had a tech level from about 1100 AD with mid level magics to 1800 AD steam punk with mid to high level magics. So no hugh government installations.
I pretty much have buried cities and town as the 'vaults' your thinking of. The civilizations of this prime material plane had a tech level from about 1100 AD with mid level magics to 1800 AD steam punk with mid to high level magics. So no hugh government installations.Glad you stuck with thus as nd kept working on it.
Have you considered vaults being found. Stuff like prepper hide aways with some still useful supplies. Or huge government instilations that could be a dungeon sized site to explore.
Maybe supply cache that a space faring race left behind for a return trip.
If you are going up through 1800, you should have the beginnings of huge government installations, especially stockpiles of resources. That was the age that gave birth to modern military logistics as we understand it today, especially propositioning of resources (food, weapons, other supplies, ect) as Europe began fielding larger and larger armies, and especially maintaining standing armies.
I would also say that 1800's tech plus mid-high level magics would telos a society far far more advanced than our own current civilization.
Ooh... Spaceships :D