| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Err... King Solomon isn't really a myth. The Temple of Solomon is definitely a thing that existed, so he (or someone like him who's actions are attributed to him) had to have existed at some point. His abilities are certainly over exaggerated, but that's the truth with almost any major figure of ancient history. But in game terms, he's a cleric that spams Augury.
Also you're picking out the parts of Jaelithe's example that could barely fit and removing the parts that never could. The Tengu would HAVE to be a time traveler to have firearms in the BC era you'd be using if you're in Solomon's Israel.
Err... King Solomon isn't really a myth. The Temple of Solomon is definitely a thing that existed, so he (or someone like him who's actions are attributed to him) had to have existed at some point. His abilities are certainly over exaggerated, but that's the truth with almost any major figure of ancient history. But in game terms, he's a cleric that spams Augury.
Also you're picking out the parts of Jaelithe's example that could barely fit and removing the parts that never could. The Tengu would HAVE to be a time traveler to have firearms in the BC era you'd be using if you're in Solomon's Israel.
Who says there were no Tengu in Solomon's Israel? And this is not Solomon's Israel. This is Solomon's Israel with Fighters/Clerics/Wizards, etc. It is a fantasy Israel, powered by Pathfinder. And if that's not what your going for... you have the wrong system.
It sorta IS mine, I made it, I did the prep work, I invited you ... But the act of inviting you certainly didn't give you controlling interest in the campaign. That campaign ceases to exist if I choose not to run it, so yeah, it IS mine. Are you going to call your pc 'our' character?
The character is part of "our game" just like your setting is part of "our game". The GM doesn't get a "controlling interest" just cause he brought the setting to "our game".
Maybe because I trade off with other GMs, but really it worries me how entitled a lot of GM sounds on here. Running the setting does not make you a special snowflake. It does not make you more important then the other players. Understand?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Jesus man, the Tengu isn't even Core. If the GM wants to play a game with humans only and you absolutely cannot abide by that then you are free to find another table.
Tengu exist in mythology in that Era. Again... both those myths are from our world. They aren't even alternate universe or other planes. Tengu's were literally chilling out in Eastern Mythology the same time as Solomon was summoning demons. So they both would exist in your setting. Let me put it this way... if there was a show that was based on magical ISrael, it would not break my suspension of disbelief for there to be a traveler from the east. Even if they had Chinese "firepowder".
Ah but they do, or does your world literally end at the borders of Israel? Because again... Asia was a place that Israelite could go... and vice versa. Silk trade was a thing you know...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd assume that if the GM is going with Israeli myth for his setting he's drawing from the Old Testament. It's been a while since I read it, but I don't particularly recall any birdmen. Maybe in the Kabbalah? Shrug.
I honestly can't believe how little creativity one must have to have exactly one character concept in mind. Right now I have 12 different character ideas sitting in my Dropbox and I haven't even used 8 of them! Is it really THAT difficult for you to imagine a second thing?
It doesn't change the setting at all though. And lets be honest Demon #53 Caim is basically a birdman/demon. Hell, maybe the character is a descendent of Caim and mortal. Really a skilled GM can make anything work, so I concede it is possible I'm holding you to too high of a standard. I could make it work easily anyway, I guess I shouldn't assume the same is true of everyone, but if you can't you should work on your storytelling/imagination until you can.
I'd love to see you try to justify a half-demon walking around in Israel. They were pretty well known for their xenophobia and racism.
You aren't entitled to your trope-laden special snowflake malarkey. Come up with something that isn't going to look extremely bizarre to the NPC's or find another campaign where it isn't as weird.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It doesn't change the setting at all though. And lets be honest Demon #53 Caim is basically a birdman/demon. Hell, maybe the character is a descendent of Caim and mortal. Really a skilled GM can make anything work, so I concede it is possible I'm holding you to too high of a standard. I could make it work easily anyway, I guess I shouldn't assume the same is true of everyone, but if you can't you should work on your storytelling/imagination until you can.
I love it. "I can't help it if you're too stupid to make my imaginary thing fit in your imaginary world. Just because you didn't make it that way doesn't give you the right to not add it when I bring it."
HAHA!
How long will this grognard fight last I wonder. Haven't seen the word malarkey in a while.
I do so love when another enraged grognard pulls the special snowflake card though.
"If you make another Strength 18 human barbarian with power attack you're just using a trope as an excuse for power gaming!"
"Omg you made something that isn't human and you took a random assembly of feats or a class that I don't see often after I explicitly told you it wouldn't work in this campaign setting?! SPECIAL SNOWFLAAAAAKEEE! GET YOUR PLAYER ENTITLEMENT OUT OF HERE!"
FTFY
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
It doesn't change the setting at all though. And lets be honest Demon #53 Caim is basically a birdman/demon. Hell, maybe the character is a descendent of Caim and mortal. Really a skilled GM can make anything work, so I concede it is possible I'm holding you to too high of a standard. I could make it work easily anyway, I guess I shouldn't assume the same is true of everyone, but if you can't you should work on your storytelling/imagination until you can.
Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you HAVE to do something. Just because there are thousands of foods in the store doesn't mean I am required to use them all or else I am a poor cook.
A skilled GM knows how to make the game work with as many or as few elements as they desire. A skilled player knows how to play the game with as many or as few elements as are allowed by the setting restrictions or lack thereof.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd love to see you try to justify a half-demon walking around in Israel. They were pretty well known for their xenophobia and racism.
Yup, if there's one religion in which tales of half demons just cannot fit, it's Judaism.
It doesn't change the setting at all though. And lets be honest Demon #53 Caim is basically a birdman/demon. Hell, maybe the character is a descendent of Caim and mortal. Really a skilled GM can make anything work, so I concede it is possible I'm holding you to too high of a standard. I could make it work easily anyway, I guess I shouldn't assume the same is true of everyone, but if you can't you should work on your storytelling/imagination until you can.Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you HAVE to do something. Just because there are thousands of foods in the store doesn't mean I am required to use them all or else I am a poor cook.
A skilled GM knows how to make the game work with as many or as few elements as they desire. A skilled player knows how to play the game with as many or as few elements as are allowed by the setting restrictions or lack thereof.
No but a skilled enough GM SHOULD use their skills at storytelling and imagination to incorporate a character that player wishes to play. That's what a skilled GM does.
I'd love to see you try to justify a half-demon walking around in Israel. They were pretty well known for their xenophobia and racism.Yup, if there's one religion in which tales of half demons just cannot fit, it's Judaism.
It's funny that the thing you posted to refute a point actually proves that point instead. Maybe you should have actually read what you linked to.
In most of these variants the marriage is between a human male and a female demon, a pairing likely inspired by the legends about the demon Lilith, who was believed to seek out men who slept alone in order to seduce them. The offspring of these matches with demons are said to be beings half-human, half-demon, who are at home in neither world.
"It doesn't matter if a helf-demon, half-human would be a complete outcast in any place they went to. MY half-demon, half-human is a PC and therefore will be openly accepted because otherwise the GM is treading on my concept and being a jerk."
No but a skilled enough GM SHOULD use their skills at storytelling and imagination to incorporate a character that player wishes to play. That's what a skilled GM does.It doesn't change the setting at all though. And lets be honest Demon #53 Caim is basically a birdman/demon. Hell, maybe the character is a descendent of Caim and mortal. Really a skilled GM can make anything work, so I concede it is possible I'm holding you to too high of a standard. I could make it work easily anyway, I guess I shouldn't assume the same is true of everyone, but if you can't you should work on your storytelling/imagination until you can.Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you HAVE to do something. Just because there are thousands of foods in the store doesn't mean I am required to use them all or else I am a poor cook.
A skilled GM knows how to make the game work with as many or as few elements as they desire. A skilled player knows how to play the game with as many or as few elements as are allowed by the setting restrictions or lack thereof.
That's an interesting opinion, and not one that seems to be shared. Players like a lot of things that don't always fly in many games. It isn't a lack of skill or imagination, but a lack of desire. And again, a skilled player could choose to follow the setting rules that have been laid down.
This reminds me of a comment upthread about GMs being Customer Service Representatives. As it so happens, my wife deals with a call center and dozens of clients all with Facebook and the like where disgruntled patrons vent their ire about not getting what they want. Some of the problems are legitimate, but an exceedingly large number of them are people that believe they are owed something. Free shipping, free products, massive discounts, and so on for their "trouble".
This is why I am not a CSR as a GM. I do not believe that anyone at the table is owed anything more than a chance to play and have a good time. I believe that if you are so unhappy that you cannot play blah that you scream at me that we don't need to play together. I believe if you are unwilling to deal fairly and calmly, read the material given and discuss it before the game like a rational humanoid then you are owed the right to find your way home.
Sorry for the tangent there, I meant to post that much earlier after I saw the CSR bit.
As for this continued theme of "you don't have the skill or imagination", well, that's just a polite way of insulting people who do not play or believe the way you do. It is possible to be skilled and not allow something, be it a race, a feat, a spell, or whatever. It is possible to have imagination and not desire to have a wormhole open to disgorge a Traveller Space Marine with a Man Portable Fusion weapon into your fantasy world. It is possible to build worlds and campaigns that do not use every scrap of rule and fluff from every book Paizo puts out.
Or, more simply, your imagination is no better or worse than mine. We choose to play games different ways.
Its not an insult it's simply the truth. Here lets break it down and see if you agree on the following points:
A skilled storyteller can make a Tengu Magus fit in a story based on ancient Israel. True or False?
If the GM can make a players concept work in the story they should allow it. True or False.
Spoiler: the answers are obviously True and True.
Its not an insult it's simply the truth. Here lets break it down and see if you agree on the following points:
A skilled storyteller can make a Tengu Magus fit in a story based on ancient Israel. True or False?
If the GM can make a players concept work in the story they should allow it. True or False.
Spoiler: the answers are obviously True and True.
That's quite the false dilemma you've posted there.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes Simon, his false dilemma pairs nicely with the goal posts you shifted on Coriat.
Ultimately, there are lines. Should a player be able to demand to play a 20th level space marine in a low magic fantasy world? No. Should a DM flatly ban anything out of hand? No. But compromise is needed to find the actual middle ground.
Yes Simon, his false dilemma pairs nicely with the goal posts you shifted on Coriat.
Ultimately, there are lines. Should a player be able to demand to play a 20th level space marine in a low magic fantasy world? No. Should a DM flatly ban anything out of hand? No. But compromise is needed to find the actual middle ground.
Could you do me a favor and let me know how I shifted the goalposts? I honestly missed it if I did and I'd like to know where it happened.
Its not an insult it's simply the truth. Here lets break it down and see if you agree on the following points:
A skilled storyteller can make a Tengu Magus fit in a story based on ancient Israel. True or False?
If the GM can make a players concept work in the story they should allow it. True or False.
Spoiler: the answers are obviously True and True.
I do not see it as that obvious.
I am a Skilled GM and yes I can "Make" it work But it will require using the absolute worst over used tropes and violate the verisimilitude of the setting for myself and at least 3 other players.That is 4 against 1 that do not want the character concept in the setting...
The 1 loses.
That's quite the false dilemma you've posted there.Its not an insult it's simply the truth. Here lets break it down and see if you agree on the following points:
A skilled storyteller can make a Tengu Magus fit in a story based on ancient Israel. True or False?
If the GM can make a players concept work in the story they should allow it. True or False.
Spoiler: the answers are obviously True and True.
It's not a false dilemma as I have posted no dilemma. There is no attempt to force a given a choice. Just some statements for you to agree or disagree with. I'm simply trying to get your perspective and I assumed you agreed those.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Could you do me a favor and let me know how I shifted the goalposts? I honestly missed it if I did and I'd like to know where it happened.Yes Simon, his false dilemma pairs nicely with the goal posts you shifted on Coriat.
Ultimately, there are lines. Should a player be able to demand to play a 20th level space marine in a low magic fantasy world? No. Should a DM flatly ban anything out of hand? No. But compromise is needed to find the actual middle ground.
Someone said they'd like to see a half demon build in Israel.
Coriat provided a story about such.
You suggested that the story proved the opposite, because the setting would be hostile to them.
Goal posts were shifted from "DM allows Character X" to "DM ensures setting bends over and kisses Character X's arse."
Don't get me wrong, Anzyr's premise that anything that can ever be allowed should always be allowed is rot and bunk, but I'm seeing a lot of extreme positions when the reality for the majority lies somewhere in the middle.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Its not an insult it's simply the truth. Here lets break it down and see if you agree on the following points:
A skilled storyteller can make a Tengu Magus fit in a story based on ancient Israel. True or False?
If the GM can make a players concept work in the story they should allow it. True or False.
Spoiler: the answers are obviously True and True.
I do not see it as that obvious.
I am a Skilled GM and yes I can "Make" it work But it will require using the absolute worst over used tropes and violate the verisimilitude of the setting for myself and at least 3 other players.
That is 4 against 1 that do not want the character concept in the setting...
The 1 loses.
While on a technical level "This guy walked from way over here" is an often used trope, it's one I'd be wary to abolish myself since, well, your players are going to need to walk somewhere eventually.
Its not an insult it's simply the truth. Here lets break it down and see if you agree on the following points:
A skilled storyteller can make a Tengu Magus fit in a story based on ancient Israel. True or False?
If the GM can make a players concept work in the story they should allow it. True or False.
Spoiler: the answers are obviously True and True.
A storyteller (skilled or not) could make something fit, yes. You could make Superman fit on Golarion if you wanted to.
As for your second question, the answer if False. The GM and Player can discuss the hows and whys of what they want to play along side the setting restrictions. The GM is not under an obligation to shoehorn in a concept that goes outside what they are comfortable allowing in the game, be it disallowed races, guns when they are not permitted, the book version of a spell that has been changed to correct a perceived problem and so on.
There are no obvious answers. There is no One Way.
It's not a false dilemma as I have posted no dilemma. There is no attempt to force a given a choice. Just some statements for you to agree or disagree with. I'm simply trying to get your perspective and I assumed you agreed those.That's quite the false dilemma you've posted there.Its not an insult it's simply the truth. Here lets break it down and see if you agree on the following points:
A skilled storyteller can make a Tengu Magus fit in a story based on ancient Israel. True or False?
If the GM can make a players concept work in the story they should allow it. True or False.
Spoiler: the answers are obviously True and True.
The false dilemma is this:
Either you are a skilled GM and can fit a Tengu into Israel
Or you are not a skilled GM and can't fit a Tengu into Israel
You also pretty clearly stated that lack of skill as a GM is directly tied to lack of imagination. Which when applied to your original dilemma, changes it to this:
Either you can make a Tengu fit in Israel or you have no imagination.
There is your false dilemma.
You then went and added on top of that:
If a skilled GM can make any character concept work, then a skilled GM is obligated to make my character concept work
A skilled GM can make any character concept work
Therefore, a skilled GM is obligated to make my character concept work
You also engaged in a bit of question begging when you posted your conclusion that both of your statement are true when both of those statement are what is actually being debated here.
While on a technical level "This guy walked from way over here" is an often used trope, it's one I'd be wary to abolish myself since, well, your players are going to need to walk somewhere eventually.Its not an insult it's simply the truth. Here lets break it down and see if you agree on the following points:
A skilled storyteller can make a Tengu Magus fit in a story based on ancient Israel. True or False?
If the GM can make a players concept work in the story they should allow it. True or False.
Spoiler: the answers are obviously True and True.
I do not see it as that obvious.
I am a Skilled GM and yes I can "Make" it work But it will require using the absolute worst over used tropes and violate the verisimilitude of the setting for myself and at least 3 other players.
That is 4 against 1 that do not want the character concept in the setting...
The 1 loses.
That really depends on the campaign does it not?
If the campaign is designed in such a way that the players never leave a 100 mile radius from the start point then the "this guy walked here from 2000 miles and 8 dimensions away" is going to seem contrived.
Could you do me a favor and let me know how I shifted the goalposts? I honestly missed it if I did and I'd like to know where it happened.Yes Simon, his false dilemma pairs nicely with the goal posts you shifted on Coriat.
Ultimately, there are lines. Should a player be able to demand to play a 20th level space marine in a low magic fantasy world? No. Should a DM flatly ban anything out of hand? No. But compromise is needed to find the actual middle ground.
Someone said they'd like to see a half demon build in Israel.
Coriat provided a story about such.
You suggested that the story proved the opposite, because the setting would be hostile to them.
Goal posts were shifted from "DM allows Character X" to "DM ensures setting bends over and kisses Character X's arse."
Don't get me wrong, Anzyr's premise that anything that can ever be allowed should always be allowed is rot and bunk, but I'm seeing a lot of extreme positions when the reality for the majority lies somewhere in the middle.
You might want to double check Arachnofiend's initial statement, which was:
"I'd love to see you try to justify a half-demon walking around in Israel. They were pretty well known for their xenophobia and racism."
Coriat's posted link, specifically the part that I bolded in my quote from it, actually proved that point, it didn't refute it.
That really depends on the campaign does it not?
If the campaign is designed in such a way that the players never leave a 100 mile radius from the start point then the "this guy walked here from 2000 miles and 8 dimensions away" is going to seem contrived.
Not really. Just because the players never leave an area doesn't mean everybody else in the world is stuck within a 100 mile radius as well.
I'd imagine it'd get pretty cramped in that small area, especially with no trade going on so there'd have to be an extraordinary number of farms and water supplies in the area.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How long will this grognard fight last I wonder. Haven't seen the word malarkey in a while.
I do so love when another enraged grognard pulls the special snowflake card though.
"If you make another Strength 18 human barbarian with power attack you're just using a trope as an excuse for power gaming!"
"Omg you made something that isn't human and you took a random assembly of feats or a class that I don't see often?! SPECIAL SNOWFLAAAAAKEEE! GET YOUR PLAYER ENTITLEMENT OUT OF HERE!"
I have plenty of words I could have used other than malarkey but most of them are not allowed on this forum. Grognard is hardly appropriate for me by the way, Pathfinder is my first tabletop.
For the record, I'm actually a major sucker for Tieflings. I loooove half-demons and demons in general, I think they're awesome and I build them often. I'm just a good enough writer to recognize when a character isn't appropriate for a setting and to adjust. Because collaborative writing requires some sort of compromise if you don't want to end up with a ridiculous mess.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Its not an insult it's simply the truth. Here lets break it down and see if you agree on the following points:
A skilled storyteller can make a Tengu Magus fit in a story based on ancient Israel. True or False?
If the GM can make a players concept work in the story they should allow it. True or False.
Spoiler: the answers are obviously True and True.
Another question for you:
Should the GM's preferences EVERY be taken into consideration? Or should he just STFU and roll the dice for the monsters?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
demons and angels cannot have children. Any instance of them doing so is from apocryphal Scripture.
I can hardly claim to be a Bible scholar, but it seems like Geneis 6 might have something to say on the topic.
I'd love to see you try to justify a half-demon walking around in Israel. They were pretty well known for their xenophobia and racism.Yup, if there's one religion in which tales of half demons just cannot fit, it's Judaism.It's funny that the thing you posted to refute a point actually proves that point instead. Maybe you should have actually read what you linked to.
In most of these variants the marriage is between a human male and a female demon, a pairing likely inspired by the legends about the demon Lilith, who was believed to seek out men who slept alone in order to seduce them. The offspring of these matches with demons are said to be beings half-human, half-demon, who are at home in neither world."It doesn't matter if a helf-demon, half-human would be a complete outcast in any place they went to. MY half-demon, half-human is a PC and therefore will be openly accepted because otherwise the GM is treading on my concept and being a jerk."
Yeah, you know, the challenge offered was to justify a half-demon walking around in a fantasy-Israel setting.
Specifically, "I'd love to see you try to justify a half demon walking around in Israel."
Pointing out that half demons are an important theme in Jewish folklore does just fine for that purpose, but thanks for accusing me of not reading my own link all the same.
The rest of your post is just you putting words in my mouth not drawn from anything I have posted on this or any other thread.
I don't object to a hypothetical half-demon character, in fantasy Israel or most other settings, having to overcome appropriate social challenges related to their heritage.
For the record, I'm actually a major sucker for Tieflings. I loooove half-demons and demons in general, I think they're awesome and I build them often. I'm just a good enough writer to recognize when a character isn't appropriate for a setting and to adjust. Because collaborative writing requires some sort of compromise if you don't want to end up with a ridiculous mess.Now, see, a tiefling lacking some obviously demonic feature could conceivably fit with relative ease—relative to a 17th century tengu gunslinger, for example—into a campaign set in Solomonic Israel. That's assuming the DM is using extra-Biblical sources like the Book of Enoch (which is canonical only for certain of the Ethiopian Orthodox) and other equally entertaining if non-canonical books.
If one were going strictly period and Biblical, well ... demons and angels cannot have children. Any instance of them doing so is from apocryphal Scripture.
I'm super curious your background on this belief. What made you think this about Angels?
The Old testament had Giants (who were children of angels) or 1/2 angels (Nephilim).Demons? I am not sure if there are records of them doing this? Then again Demons are just angels that lost their first estate (chance to get a body) because they rebelled vs heaven. This is why they possess. They are jealous of us.
Who says there were no Tengu in Solomon's Israel? And this is not Solomon's Israel. This is Solomon's Israel with Fighters/Clerics/Wizards, etc. It is a fantasy Israel, powered by Pathfinder. And if that's not what your going for... you have the wrong system.Err... King Solomon isn't really a myth. The Temple of Solomon is definitely a thing that existed, so he (or someone like him who's actions are attributed to him) had to have existed at some point. His abilities are certainly over exaggerated, but that's the truth with almost any major figure of ancient history. But in game terms, he's a cleric that spams Augury.
Also you're picking out the parts of Jaelithe's example that could barely fit and removing the parts that never could. The Tengu would HAVE to be a time traveler to have firearms in the BC era you'd be using if you're in Solomon's Israel.
I'd like to take this moment to highlight the bolded portion. It's something I see come up quite frequently in these discussions. Somebody wants to run a 'realistic' 'low magic' 'low fantasy' campaign... and then they use D&D and/or Pathfinder to do it, allowing all core classes and taking the party through high levels *headdesk.*
Pathfinder 'can' conceivably handle Solomon's Israel, but... nobody's getting second level spells without extended rituals.
for Pathfinder to be a 'realistic' 'low magic' low fantasy campaign' run an E4 World with no monsters higher than CR 8.
expecting D&D or Pathfinder to be anything vaguely resembling "realistic" past level 4 is kinda impossible.
if you want "Low Magic" "Low Fantasy" "Low Power Scale" let me point you out to Savage Worlds by pinnacle entertainment, where a single arrow between the eyes is bound to kill you. it is by Pinnacle Entertainment, and well, doesn't have anything resembling the supermen of Pathfinder/D&D. Savage Worlds has a variety of Genres it can accomplish, with the exceptions of Mythic Wuxia, Mythic Shonen Anime and Mythic Superheros.