Well, according to the Pathfinder wiki:
"Until the death of Aroden in 4606 AR, the goddess Milani was simply one of dozens of saints within the Last Azlanti's faith. She was the beacon of hope to all those who fought against repressive regimes, giving courage to those who had little but their desire to live a free life. The death of her patron, combined with the tremendous upheaval and suffering that followed his death, gave her a focus and attracted many new followers."
So, that would imply (to me, anyway) that the influx of followers infused her with enough divine power to allow her ascent.
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Well, according to the Pathfinder wiki:
"Until the death of Aroden in 4606 AR, the goddess Milani was simply one of dozens of saints within the Last Azlanti's faith. She was the beacon of hope to all those who fought against repressive regimes, giving courage to those who had little but their desire to live a free life. The death of her patron, combined with the tremendous upheaval and suffering that followed his death, gave her a focus and attracted many new followers."
So, that would imply (to me, anyway) that the influx of followers infused her with enough divine power to allow her ascent.
I was under the impression you needed more to become an actual god than just followers. Otherwise Razmir would be a real god.
She was already an Azlanti Saint. That implies the touch of divinity, with the ability to perform "miracles".
Maybe someone told her she couldn't become a god, and she became one just to show 'em! :)
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There are stories that Nethys was pharaoh of Osirion, but there are also stories that he, then already at or near godhood, helped a mortal found Osirion and become its first Pharaoh.
Me, I suspect Nethys is just another mask of Nyarlathotep the Crawling Chaos.
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Milani is often associated with Iomedae, who, like Cailean and Norgorber, did ascend to godhood via the starstone like Aroden. But AFAIK, nothing has ever explained how Milani became a god, and we do know it's possible to become a god without it such as in the case of Irori.
There is a god article on her in the Second Reign of Winter AP volume. She was a divinely empowered saint of Aroden when he fell and I believe she took the spark of divine in her and ran with it to step up and try to fill the void of his passing. She didn't do the Starstone like Iomedae, she was sponsored into sainthood and is working her way up from there unaided, first step was to demigod-hood.
Milani was a Half-Elf in life, and yes it was the power void-influx of followers from the death of Aroden that allowed her to ascend
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My understanding is that the gods themselves have the ability to ascend mortals to godhood by their own power. Thus, Milani was ascended to godhood through the power of Aroden himself.
Aroden ascended to godhood by raising the Starstone from the bottom of the sea and creating the Isle of Kortos, but he did not take the Test of the Starstone. He was already more than 5,000 years old at the time, so he may very well have already been a demigod.
Other gods had themselves ascended to godhood from mortality through means other than the Starstone. Examples from the Core 20 that I can think of are Irori, Urgathoa, and Nethys.
Other types of beings can also ascend to godhood: Lamashtu was a demon that ascended; Sarenrae, an angel; and Rovagug, a qlippoth. (Whether Asmodeus was a devil that ascended is a matter of debate.)
The means of divine ascenstion are still deliberately mysterious. I'm actually hoping that Paizo never publishes more rules about how to go about it, other than what's already been printed in Mythic Adventures.
As far as I understand she was elevated to saint/demigod status by Aroden. Apparently that investment was not contingent upon his continued upkeep like a cleric with spells. In the after math of his death Milani did enough story worthy deeds to propel her to full godhood.
Also, according to James Jacobs Asmodeus is an ascended devil.
Also, according to James Jacobs Asmodeus is an ascended devil.
Well, don't say that in earshot of an Asmodean priest... especially in Cheliax.
To add a little bit more on Milani - Milani was one of a number of demigod saints in Aroden's service. After Aroden's death, various very powerful enemies he'd made over the millennia hunted down and killed his saints.
Milani managed to survive that purge, and managed to take and hold what was left of Aroden's divine realm in Axis in the process.
Somewhere along the way she managed the transition from demigoddess to true goddess.
Ascension through trial-by-fire, as it were.
What really surprises me is how on earth a saint of a Lawful Neutral god became a Chaotic Good god herself! Presumably she must have been a very different person while Aroden was alive. Does the bit about her in The Shackled Hut say anything about this?
Not really, no. I'm guessing she had her portfolios of devotion and hope while Aroden was still alive, and she adopted the portfolio of uprisings afterwards. She took the boss's death kind of badly.
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What really surprises me is how on earth a saint of a Lawful Neutral god became a Chaotic Good god herself! Presumably she must have been a very different person while Aroden was alive. Does the bit about her in The Shackled Hut say anything about this?
That part is a little vague. The book says that Milani was a half-elven ranger living on the borderlands of Kyonin when Treerazer entered the scene. She helped defend the human settlements on the far side of Tanglebriar, after they were abandonded by their erstwhile elven protectors. Her embrace of her human heritage and zeal to defend humans against a nascent demon lord caught Aroden's attention, and he blessed her with a divine spark.
The book doesn't touch on the alignment mismatch, and it emphasizes their common goals over their common philosophies.
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Hmm, that sort of makes sense. Aroden must have been more broad minded than I give him credit for!
Hmm, that sort of makes sense. Aroden must have been more broad minded than I give him credit for!
Aroden not only seems to be broad-minded... he also seems to have a thing for "the ladies"... so long as they're tough-as-nails, I-will-destroy-your-evil warrior-type ladies.
1) Arazni
2) Milani
3) Iomedae
It does make me wonder, though: who sponsored Norgorber and Cayden?
Looking at The Great Beyond,
In Axis nothing happens without plans or contingencies, and nothing exists unbound by the intricate web of treaties and arrangements woven between outsiders and gods. Everything from the size of formianhives to the timing of axiomite expeditions into the borderlands, and even the regular flow and distribution of petitioners, is bound by the immutable laws and contracts of the eternal city. The death of the god Aroden was the lone exception to that eternal status quo.
In the wake of Aroden’s death, the axiomites hastily convened with utter secrecy, for the first time in their history manifesting the Godmind without allowing the presence of Axis’s gods or the ruling formian matriarchs. Over the course of 3 days the inevitable factories ground to a silent halt and the Threefold Pillar visibly shuddered and rang like a discordant chime as the equations swirling around its body shifted, changed, and rewrote themselves with variables hitherto and since unseen. Three days later the pillars returned to their calm silence and the Axiomite Godmind declared Aroden’s realm a distinct region unto itself and no longer a portion of Axis until such time as it was fully and rightfully claimed by a new ruler. Since then, the Eternal City itself has retracted from the shattered domain, with a buffer of crystalline sand and a circular golden wall demarcating the region, with the axiomites and inevitables keeping watch over the area just as intently as they do their borders with the Maelstrom.
And
Norgorber’s Domain: As with all mortal cities wishing to declare their own perfection and shining status for all the world to see, there exists a dark underbelly, an illicit underworld populated by thieves and all of a society’s malcontents and castaways. Axis lacks any hypocritical sense of morality, valuing only the practical, but like those mortal cities, it too contains its own version of a corrupt but thriving undercity in the form of the deific domain of Norgorber, god of thieves and murder. As intricate as the plane’s formian tunnel networks, Norborger’s domain connects to disparate points across Axis, and not always in a conventional manner.
Far from facing condemnation or war, the underground domain of sprawling tunnels and caverns filled with shadows and shady inhabitants are accepted as necessary by the native gods and outsiders. While Norgorber and his servants may not always follow the letter or spirit of the laws to which they agree (laws which theoretically bind all of Axis’s inhabitants), their unreliability is anticipated and planned for. The utility provided by the god of thieves (and his role as King of Thieves for the largest such guild in the largest city in the cosmos) allows most of Axis to turn a blind eye to his activities in the name of pragmatism.
And
Several factions seek to control what remains of the god Aroden’s broken realm.
Illorphia: One of the larval formian queens, this ambitious child is unwilling to wait for her mother’s death or the eventual expansion of the Eternal City to provide her with virgin territory in which to establish a hive. The youngest but most ambitious of the pupae formian matriarchs intends to colonize and rule the former domain for herself, rebuilding it in her own image with the eventual goal of superseding whichever of her sisters becomes the Queen Matriarch’s handpicked successor.
Methricandra: Also knows as the Razor-Tongued Erinyes Queen, this creature formerly served as a member of the archdevil Mephistopheles’s court. By seizing control of Aroden’s domain, she seeks to establish herself as a minor divinity in her own right, perhaps to then rule at Asmodeus’s side as his favored consort, or even challenge the God-Tyrant himself for control of Hell.
Milani: Already a minor demigoddess, Milani maintains a stable domain (if only a few square miles) near the heart of Aroden’s realm, offering shelter, rest, and even divine aid to those seeking to expel the forces of evil. Of course, her actions ultimately support her divine portfolio and in the course of time would only further her claim upon Aroden’s domain, something which has made her pacified sector a major target not only by infernal claimants, but by several formian hives as well.
Others: Those wishing to claim this prize include at least two other exiled minor diabolic nobles, Cormandrian (an archon servitor of Iomedae), a troupe of several dozen mortal paladins, a non-evil lich of uncertain original species, the so-called Children of the Reborn Glory (who seek to resurrect Aroden), several dragons (both metallic and chromatic), and a mad former solar of Aroden leading a wailing congregation of grief-stricken petitioners all of whom are still unwilling to accept their divine patron’s death.
On the surface, it may make it look like either Aroden himself helped Norgorber ascend. However... I find that uncompelling, not the least of which, because it's worth noting that Norgorber isn't listed among those attempting to claim Aroden's area... which itself is telling, as it seems he has no interest in it.
So some other Axis deity (shockingly, but in a twisted sort of "sense", perhaps even Abadar... but other possibilities include the godmind, various "divine" or "nearly-divine" fiends, or even Arzanixtria) may be involved in inviting Norgorber into Axis.
For Cayden, in Elysium, it notes:
Calistria’s Domain: Very little exists to distinguish Calistria’s domain from the lush forests and fields that populate the section of Elysium where she resides. Once inside, however, visitors may gradually notice the slight buzzing of wasps in the deep and otherwise silent forest, and then quite abruptly find themselves wandering a hedge maze of rose bushes or standing before one of the Savored Sting’s palatial, baroque manors. Within her domain, lust is freely taken and given, but so are the more bitter fruits of the experience, and unlike Elysium as a whole, benevolence is not always their primary focus. While the fickle goddess of trickery, lust, and revenge often shifts her realm’s location, the fluid and indeterminate nature of its borders persists wherever she sees fit to establish herself at any given moment.
Cayden Cailean’s Domain: Cayden Cailean’s deific domain is split into roughly two portions, both reflecting the Drunken Hero’s persona as a carefree mortal adventurer and divine patron of the same. Of all Elysium’s gods, the native creatures of Elysium find Cayden Cailean’s the most kindred spirit, and their support is steadfast.
At the heart of his domain is an inner, urban city-scape of mixed architectural styles f illed with a multitude of bars, breweries, and feast halls where his petitioners and servitors share tales and boast of their deeds over all manner of drink. Fights are common and even expected, but always started with the full knowledge that whatever the outcome, a hangover is the worst that can befall them so long as they fight with passion rather than anger.
Matching this same attitude, surrounding the revelry at the domain’s heart, stand the so-called Fields of Battle. Here warriors come not to tell their tales but to create them, testing themselves and their courage against one another or against any unknown but suitable opponent or situation provided. While Cayden Cailean’s divine servants often select the challenges, many times the native azatas perform this task as well, offering rewards commensurate to the risk, especially when mortals are involved. Cayden Cailean’s herald, the five-winged celestial named Thais, frequently observes the Fields of Battle and zealously partakes in the revelry at the domain’s heart.
Desna’s Castle: This goddess maintains a small flying castle on Elysium, though her true home is on the Material Plane among the stars.
This makes it look like either Calistria or Desna (or both) were the ones that took interest in him (I find it likely he reached out, while drunk, to Calistria, but was rejected, and then accepted by Desna, thus consolidating his conflicting legends). That his entry is sandwiched in between both Calistria and Desna probably pleases him to no end, though his actual domain is rather distant from Calistria's (and Desna's flying castle doesn't appear on the map at all, from what I can tell).
Iomedae actually has her realm in heaven, though it's suggestive of the style Aroden held in Axis.
Iomedae’s: Despite being the youngest of Heaven’s gods, Iomedae, goddess of valor, justice, and honor, has increasingly accepted more and more inf luence within the plane, inspired by and equally inspiring to the native archons. The Inheritor’s realm sits within Heaven’s second tier, near the border with the first tier, a land dotted with keeps and castles echoing the styles of Aroden’s former domain in Axis and those of the native archons. Safe from direct attack from the Maelstrom’s borderlands, but near enough to provide support to the departing armies of the archon crusades, Iomedae’s role in Heaven increasingly blurs the line between discrete deific realm and the celestials’ military hierarchy.
This throws into question the idea that Norgorber or Cayden were ascended by gods in their respective domains... but I suspect that Iomedae only moved here after Ardoen's death, Norgorber's presence is noted as "planned for" and "deemed necessary" by Axis, and Cayden matches (both alignment and myth) his plane and gods "from" there, so I think Iomedae is likely the outlier among the Ascended.
Also, according to James Jacobs Asmodeus is an ascended devil.
Uh, this is completely counter to the whole creation story with Ihys.
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Also, according to James Jacobs Asmodeus is an ascended devil.Uh, this is completely counter to the whole creation story with Ihys.
I'm pretty sure James has acknowledged that.
Tabris, the meta narrator for the Books of the Damned, is not a reliable source, and possibly completely bonkers.
One possibility is that Asmodeus was originally an angel, became the first devil when he fell from grace, and ascended to godhood as part of the repercussions of his fall.
That sort of timeline could mean that the first devils (Asmodeus, Dispater, Mammon, Baalzebub) predate Hell itself.
An amusing ramification is that if Asmodeus is a devil/fallen angel, then he's probably an ascended mortal soul, and that would just piss him off all the more.
Also, according to James Jacobs Asmodeus is an ascended devil.Uh, this is completely counter to the whole creation story with Ihys.
I was under the impression that the creation myth was at least partially "in-character" and thus prone to being wrong. But that is pretty interesting.
EDIT: ninja'd!
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Also, according to James Jacobs Asmodeus is an ascended devil.Uh, this is completely counter to the whole creation story with Ihys.I was under the impression that the creation myth was at least partially "in-character" and thus prone to being wrong. But that is pretty interesting.
EDIT: ninja'd!
I work under the assumption that mortals may never know the full truth of the origins of the multiverse and that you must always examine the credibility of any source. In the case of the Book of the Damned, the narrator may not be reliable nor would I consider Asmodeus an always honest source.
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What they and James Jacobs said.
Unless Asmodeus is none of those things, and the story is true. Who'd believe it, especially since you already have a reputation for deception? Hidden in plain sight. And even if you don't believe it, there'll be that little voice in the back of your head, saying "what if?" in the quiet moments. It could be a complete lie, but it's not about whether or not it's true, it's about if it might be true. Because that means doubt. And doubt means opportunity.
Sarenrae knows if it's true or not. She features in the story, after all, since back then she was an empyreal lord.
You can't ask Sarenrae, though. Gods often aren't talking, and I don't think even the honest ones can be considered reliable narrators. Especially the ones that might never have been human.
You can't ask Sarenrae, though. Gods often aren't talking, and I don't think even the honest ones can be considered reliable narrators. Especially the ones that might never have been human.Unless Asmodeus is none of those things, and the story is true. Who'd believe it, especially since you already have a reputation for deception? Hidden in plain sight. And even if you don't believe it, there'll be that little voice in the back of your head, saying "what if?" in the quiet moments. It could be a complete lie, but it's not about whether or not it's true, it's about if it might be true. Because that means doubt. And doubt means opportunity.
Sarenrae knows if it's true or not. She features in the story, after all, since back then she was an empyreal lord.
I didn't say you could ask her, I said that she knows.
(Although technically, a Commune spell can contact either the deity or their agents, so you can - after a fashion - ask her. Just don't expect her to give you a straight answer.)
That's what I meant. Not that you literally can't ask (although few people really can), but that you "can't", in a sense of functional utility.
I honestly found it kind of weird that Milani was a full deity. Everything about her struck me as more demi-god.
Speaking of mortals achieving divinity without the Starstone, how many Deities are known to have done this? I can only think of Urgathoa, Nethys, and Irori (and questionably Aroden, although I thought he was supposed to count as Starstone-ascended since raising the Starstone could itself be considered the first-performed Test of the Starstone, and I thought Irori considered all of the Starstone-ascended deities including Aroden to have gotten their divinity by cheating). Although some Divine Heralds were once mortal, and not all of them got to be Divine Heralds by way of the Starstone (Thais being a counterexample), and we know that Divine Heralds have on rare occasions gotten upgraded to full Divinity. Probably a minority of powerful outsiders managed to retain in discrete form their experiences as former mortals, and a minority of these may have managed to upgrade to full divinity.
On the other hand, I have wondered about whether the Starstone itself is actually like the Dragon Scroll in Kung Fu Panda?
Of course, this would increase the number of actual non-Starstone ascended mortals (and the joke would be on Irori for his not understanding that).
With respect to Milani becoming a full deity after being a demigoddess, we know that this does happen sometimes (after all, Iomedae was a lowly Divine Herald in between the times that she was a mortal and a full deity), and upgrading from Divine Herald to full divinity is a greater upgrade than upgrading from demigod/demigoddess or even one of the more powerful outsiders (Solars, Demon Lords, Infernal Dukes, etc.) that actually seem to be more common than Divine Heralds. Lamashtu is another example, and several others are known to be working on it.
And by the way . . .
I was under the impression you needed more to become an actual god than just followers. Otherwise Razmir would be a real god.
Razmir's working on this too.
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What really surprises me is how on earth a saint of a Lawful Neutral god became a Chaotic Good god herself! Presumably she must have been a very different person while Aroden was alive. Does the bit about her in The Shackled Hut say anything about this?
My personal theory is that she and possibly Iomedae had something to do with his death.
Also, according to James Jacobs Asmodeus is an ascended devil.Uh, this is completely counter to the whole creation story with Ihys.
Jacobs has all but outright said that the story is a fabrication and that Ihys never existed in the first place.
Personally, I don't include anything Jacobs has to say on the subject of Asmodeus in my own personal setting as he seems to have a bias against the Prince of Darkness(Pot&Kettle here, since I have an extreme bias in favor of Asmodeus). But that's just me.
Also, according to James Jacobs Asmodeus is an ascended devil.Uh, this is completely counter to the whole creation story with Ihys.Jacobs has all but outright said that the story is a fabrication and that Ihys never existed in the first place.
Personally, I don't include anything Jacobs has to say on the subject of Asmodeus in my own personal setting as he seems to have a bias against the Prince of Darkness(Pot&Kettle here, since I have an extreme bias in favor of Asmodeus). But that's just me.
Could you link where he says that? I hadn't heard that before, and I'd like to know more.
Speaking of mortals achieving divinity without the Starstone, how many Deities are known to have done this?
Lets see... Hanspur was raised to godhood after his drowning by Gozreh (I believe), and mad patron of the river Sellen. And Kurgess was raised to godhood, who who I can't recall, for martyring himself in Taldor to save the lives of others.
So both of those examples occurred after their mortal selves had died.
Speaking of mortals achieving divinity without the Starstone, how many Deities are known to have done this?Lets see... Hanspur was raised to godhood after his drowning by Gozreh (I believe), and mad patron of the river Sellen. And Kurgess was raised to godhood, who who I can't recall, for martyring himself in Taldor to save the lives of others.
So both of those examples occurred after their mortal selves had died.
Just for clarity: it wasn't Gozreh that drowned Hanspur, but after Hanspur was drowned, it was Gozreh that raised him to godhood.
Also:
deliberately vague origin stories, Pharasma is the oldest, and Saranrae or Asmodeus is 'round number 5, stories from devils are unreliable, and Sarenrae is classier than Asmodeus...