Rogues are way over powered!!

[Humphry B ManWitch]

So I hear a lot of people Slamming Rogues. I want you to prove Mathematically why they are inferior please compare them to another class and show your maths. to make things fare we are going to use PFS rules for character creation. once you have shown mathematically how they are inferior we will discuss.

[andreww]

Do your own research. There are plenty of comparisons in the current various threads.

[kyrt-ryder]

Just in the spirit of being a good sportsman... you might want to brush up on your punctuation, capitalization, and spelling Humphry.

[Humphry B ManWitch]

Kyrt-ryder please stay on topic

Andreww no I'm placing a challenge to those that believe rogues are underpowered and would never play one to prove the underpowered status of rogues on the boards. Rogues are innocent until proven guilty.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

I don't predict this going well.

[andreww]

Also, if this is a actual serious thread rather than a poorly disguised green rubbery monstrous humanoid then you need to provide a rogue for comparison. Say, level 10, 20pg, PFS rules. Give people something to work a comparison with.

Don't expect everyone else to do your own work.

In fact, here you go I will provide you with your first comparison character, a sage seeker sorcerer. So, how does he measure up in and out of combat.

In combat:

His AC is weak, as you might expect of an arcane caster but that is mitigated by invisibility, mirror image, overland flight and emergency force sphere. His will save is decent but fort is a little on the weak side. Average high DC at this level is around 19 so he has a 50/50 chance to succeed. Emergency Force Sphere however helps here again. He cant use it when surprised but with +23 perception that wont be often and +7 initiative gives him a decent chance of not being flat footed.

Offensively he is packing some of the most powerful area control at a high DC and able to target any save he chooses. With strong knowledge skills he is also able to identify enemies well enough to identify weaknesses. Persistent Spell means even against high saves he will make enemies fail. Good saves at CR10 are 13. A base Aqueous Orb/Stinking Cloud has a 50% chance of success. Persistent pushes that to 75%. Low saves are 9 making those numbers 70% and 91%. He can conceivably end an encounter before it even begins.

In terms of utility and buffing we have Haste, Liberating Command, Resist Energy, Command Undead for adding extra minions, Silent Image, Dimension Door and of course Paragon Surge to gain access to any spell we want when cast.

Out of combat he is an excellent scout with +23 perception and a range of languages. +12 stealth is low but the extra +20 from invisibility and the ability to earth glide through walls with Elemental Body I or dimension door past obstacles make him an excellent infiltrator. Traps are no obstacle, +28 to detect them, +26 to disable them and he can deal with mundane and magic traps. Taking 100 beats the DC's of everything in the CRB. In the social arena ++24 Diplomacy/+21 Bluff is hitting most level relevant DC's without much trouble and if he fails he can fall back on persistent suggestion.

OK, over to you. Lets see how your example rogue will compare.

Sage:

Male Half-Elf (Varisian) Sorcerer (Seeker, Wildblooded) 10
N Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +7; Senses low-light vision; Perception +23

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Defense
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AC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 19 (+4 armor, +3 shield, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 72 (10d6+30)
Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +12; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep

--------------------
Offense
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Speed 30 ft., fly 40 (average)

Sorcerer (Seeker, Wildblooded) Spells Known (CL 10th; concentration +22):

5th (4/day)— overland flight, hold monster (DC 23)
4th (7/day)—charm monster (DC 22), dimension door, elemental body i, emergency force sphere, fear (DC 22), greater invisibility
3rd (8/day)—aqueous orb (DC 23), dispel magic, fireball (DC 21), haste, paragon surge, stinking cloud (DC 23), suggestion (DC 21)
2nd (8/day)—command undead (DC 20), create pit (DC 22), glitterdust (DC 22), invisibility, mirror image, pilfering hand, resist energy
1st (8/day)—disguise self, grease (DC 21), identify, liberating command, mage armor, protection from evil, silent image (DC 19), snowball (DC 21)
0 (at will)—acid splash, arcane mark, daze (DC 18), detect magic, detect poison, light, mage hand, message, prestidigitation (DC 18)

--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 7, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 26, Wis 11, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +3; CMD 16

Feats: Additional Traits, Expanded Arcana, Greater Spell Focus (conjuration), Improved Initiative, Persistent Spell, Spell Focus (conjuration)

Traits: ease of faith, eyes and ears of the city, magical lineage, student of philosophy

Skills: Bluff +11 (+21 to lie), Diplomacy +14 (+24 to convince), Disable Device +26, Escape Artist +18, Fly +10, Knowledge (arcana) +23 (+27 spells), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (geography) +9, Knowledge (history) +9, Knowledge (local) +9, Knowledge (nature) +9, Knowledge (nobility) +9, Knowledge (planes) +21, Knowledge (religion) +18, Perception +23 (+28 to locate traps), Spellcraft +14 (+18 spells), Stealth +12; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception

Languages: Azlanti, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Elven, Kelish, Osiriani, Osiriani, Ancient, Thassilonian, Varisian

Special Qualities: arcane bolt, elf blood, mutated bloodlines (sage), seeker lore, trapfinding +5

Combat Gear: potion of air bubble (3), potion of touch of the sea (3), +2 mithral buckler, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of mighty constitution +2, cloak of resistance +3, eyes of the eagle, handy haversack, headband of vast intelligence +4, ioun stone (clear spindle), ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked), ring of protection +1, robe of arcane heritage, vest of escape, wayfinder, masterwork tool (diplomacy), masterwork tool (perception), sorcerer's kit, spell component pouch (2), spell component pouch, thieves' tools, masterwork, wand of infernal healing, potion of remove blindness, potion of gaseous form

[Marthkus]

Humphry B ManWitch wrote:

So I hear a lot of people Slamming Rogues. I want you to prove Mathematically why they are inferior please compare them to another class and show your maths. to make things fare we are going to use PFS rules for character creation. once you have shown mathematically how they are inferior we will discuss.

You post builds.

Scavion! That one alchemist build please.

[Humphry B ManWitch]

ok here is an example

Human Rogue Versus Human Barbarian 1st level

Same amount of feats. Same ability scores.
Str 18 (racial +2) Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10

Feats: Power attack, Weapon Focus - Great Sword

barbarian can rage for 6 rounds.

Rogue Can sneak attack

While raging the Barbarian gains the upper-hand for 6 rounds of the day.
giving them +3 higher attack bonus +3 more damage

Rogue Sneak attack +3.5 damage on average per dice of sneak attack

Rogues can Sneak attack when in a flank or their opponent is flat footed which equates to more opportunity than a barbarians rage at lower levels at higher levels the barbarian is doing less damage due to strength than a Rogue dose. combine the extra skills that the rogue has and the rogue out shines the barbarian outside of combat.

[Marthkus]

Humphry B ManWitch wrote:

Kyrt-ryder please stay on topic

Andreww no I'm placing a challenge to those that believe rogues are underpowered and would never play one to prove the underpowered status of rogues on the boards. Rogues are innocent until proven guilty.

I have played rogues. I find them to almost be unplayable NPC classes. You post builds!

[Marthkus]

Humphry B ManWitch wrote:

ok here is an example

Human Rogue Versus Human Barbarian 1st level

Same amount of feats. Same ability scores.
Str 18 (racial +2) Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10

Feats: Power attack, Weapon Focus - Great Sword

barbarian can rage for 6 rounds.

Rogue Can sneak attack

While raging the Barbarian gains the upper-hand for 6 rounds of the day.
giving them +3 higher attack bonus +3 more damage

Rogue Sneak attack +3.5 damage on average per dice of sneak attack

Rogues can Sneak attack when in a flank or their opponent is flat footed which equates to more opportunity than a barbarians rage at lower levels at higher levels the barbarian is doing less damage due to strength than a Rogue dose. combine the extra skills that the rogue has and the rogue out shines the barbarian outside of combat.

OK so what sort of AP did you have fun with this rogue?

What actual experience are you bringing to this discussion?

EDIT: Also you're rogue takes a -4 penalty for using a weapon they are not proficient with, and can't take weapon focus at 1, Requires both proficiency and +1 BAB.

[Liz Courts]

Locking thread. This is exactly the wrong sort of approach to a discussion on our messageboards—be civil to each other.