Repeating crossbow wizard optimization?


Advice

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

So, I'm playing through the Thornkeep module in a group of three PCs: two melee dwarves and my half-elven wizard. Because I wanted to try something entirely new, I took repeating heavy crossbow proficiency through an alternate racial trait and made it the wizard's bonded item, so I got a mwk weapon for free at 1st level.

The first session was loads of fun, the half-elf actually racked up more kills with his combo of mwk weapon, Dex 18, Point-blank Shot, the prescience power from the foresight subschool and gravity bow than the dwarven brothers got with their axes and Power Attack. I fear that his effectiveness will drop dramatically with the levels, and eventually there's no point in using the crossbow anymore. However, for flavor reasons, I want to keep the xbow his main weapon, with spells only providing buffs, battlefield control and other support. (Ok, maybe he'll have a backup fireball in his spellbook, just in case...)

Since Thornkeep consists of five dungeon levels and each level presumably nets you enough xp to go up one level, I expect that we reach level 6 before we encounter the BBEG. That's only bab +3 and 3 feats (the first of which is pbs and the second probably will be Precise Shot), so the optimization challenge is rather different from the usual campaign.

I'm actually debating whether Focused Shot might be worth taking, just this once. The wizard's Int is currently 16 but will go up to 18 later (headband +2). That's +3 or +4, actually better than what he'll ever get from Deadly Aim. Besides, Rapid Shot would mean that he'd have to reload much more often, so I'm almost convinced that Focused Shot is actually mathematically better in this particular case. At level 5, of course, he can cast haste which doesn't work with Focused Shot.

Anyway, what feats, spells, weapon enchantments, etc. would you recommend? Prestige classes? One-level dips? Remember, levels 1-6 only. :)


Well first, gotta warn you that your fear is completely, utterly, absolutely and precisely founded. But I know your pains, for I also have had to deal with this ancient-greece level of crossbow technology in a world of double-barreled shotguns and giant clockwork mechs. Also the fact that the "give this to our crappier troops; we'd put it on peasants but it isn't THAT cheap to produce" weapon of greater simplicity is.. an exotic. With performance worse than the basic model down in 'simple'. Despite all the... GAH. Why won't they just add some new crossbows that don't bloody suck to a new book's equipment section for once? It's been done with other weapons!

... er anyways... You've got how many feats to work with here? 2? 3? 4?

Point Blank Shot is of course a prime requisite here, so that's one... Precise Shot is a good idea, given the penalties you're killing off; you ain't exactly working off touch attacks. That's two. Rapid Shot is your third, because you'd be reloading after just as many shots either way, you just have a higher chance of targets being DEAD faster with Rapid Shot.

And then, you're going to fix your ammunition issue in a way that (and you're not gonna believe this), doesn't even need a feat.

No seriously.

There's two options depending on whether you get a chance to "spend some gold" or not in any way.

1) a second repeater. better than a full round action eh?
2) IF you can weasel this by instead... Have, "50 shot trigger" being perfectly acceptable if money's tight... (it'll easily last you the entire combat and maybe a second one if there's an ambush 20s later or something) install the cheapest form of Abundant Ammunition you can find on a container. What container?

Quote:
Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity

Oh look it's a separate little container, separate from the weapon, that you'd need to preload in order to reload!


If for some reason your GM is cruel and declares that bolt containers are not containers, and that Abundant Ammunition won't work that way, then try Reloading Hands. It's higher level, but whatevs. It'll get the job done.

I say stick with it. The game is about having fun, and this sounds like fun. ^__^

Also check out Arrow Eruption, Ricochet Shot, and the usual stuff like Flame Arrow. Versatile Weapon too, maybe?


Something that might just be a nitpick to others bothers me about using Abundant Ammunition.

Okay, it's magic, so real life it is bogus. But it creates ammunition.

The only problem is these repeating crossbows have a spring mechanism that propels the projectiles. It can only shoot so many before you have to recock it.

It might not bother others, but the idea of this think staying cocked as it were, for as long as the abundant ammo spell lasts, bothers me.


sunbeam wrote:

Something that might just be a nitpick to others bothers me about using Abundant Ammunition.

Okay, it's magic, so real life it is bogus. But it creates ammunition.

The only problem is these repeating crossbows have a spring mechanism that propels the projectiles. It can only shoot so many before you have to recock it.

It might not bother others, but the idea of this think staying cocked as it were, for as long as the abundant ammo spell lasts, bothers me.

These things bother me, too, but I try not to think about it too much. lol It makes about as much sense as the Rapid Reload feat allowing you to full attack + rapid shot with a light x-bow, or how the Manyshot feat somehow allows you to double the force you can generate with a bow, and so on.

Pathfinder is about 25% realism, 75% rule of cool, with heaps of magic thrown on top.


I like what you got going on, plus point blank and precise are sneaking good feats for range touch spells as well.

But as far as your main question, yes Focused shot is going to help you much more with your lower base attack at these levels then rapid shot and deadly aim. Have you considered weapon focus?

Not familiar with the adventure you are playing but if there are down time, but would item creation feats be helpful?

also cheap items to buy bracers of falcon's aim...increased crit damage and a +1 to hit, wand of gravity bow, to free up spell slots

greater magic weapon when you get it should be a huge boon...

i don't know if rapid shot will ever be a good idea, and i wonder about the mechanics of a repeating crossbow, is it needed for the normal extra attacks, or just to be able to free action load a clip?

I would think that after a while, buff/debuff for a round or two before engaging with weapon will be the tactic..depending on monster of course.

would concentrate on to hit and damage bonuses other wise you will stagnant out pretty fast, but as a finisher currently +6 to hit 2d8+2 ( magic weapon, pbs) isn't bad, beats a magic missile and saves spell slots for something more useful


Wow, this gave me inspiration for an EK that starts as a wizard!


Intelligent Crossbow (Bonded)
Wizard: "Rhapud Fiar"
Crossbow (loudly): "Rapid Fire"
Wizard ruins out of spells...
"You are out of lethal enchantments"
(might as well take levels of Hellknight Signifier...)

Scarab Sages

Here is an idea that you might find useful for mid-level play, assuming a little bit of GM cooperation.

Shrink item let's you return an object to normal size when you "toss it onto a solid object"

The GM's call is: Does shooting it out of a crossbow count as "tossing" it?

If the answer is yes, Take the Alchemy skill. At 9th level take the fabricate feat.

use alchemy and/or fabricate to make large urns of acid and alchemist fire. Shape the urn so that it will work as an arrowhead when shrunk. Affix it to the tip of a bolt.

This would be a touch-attack weapon that comes into play right about the time that your x-bow really gets useless.

The damage should go up one step increase for each doubling in volume (and cost btw)

So:

x1 = 1d6 W/ 1 pt splash 20 gp
x2 = 1d8 W/ 1d2 pt splash 40 gp
x4 = 2d6 W/ 1d3 pt splash 80 gp
x8 = 3d6 W/ 1d4 pt splash 160 gp
x16 = 4d8(?) w/ 1d6 pt splash for 320 gp

Remember that achemist fire burns for 2 rounds.
Also remember that the cost is 1/3 the price so devide those prices by 3 to get the out-of pocket cost per shot.

Here is how to sell it to your GM: The out of pocket cost for a single charge from a wand of fireball is 90 gp. So if anything this weapon is overpriced.


Wonder if there's a way to make wands snap 'staff of power' style.
That would be PERFECT as horrifyingly expensive crossbow ammunition....

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Thanks for the suggestions and advice, everyone! I should have mentioned that I don't intend to bug the GM about houserules because I like it better to use existing rules to make the concept work.

The idea of explosive ammunition is very nice, though... I just can't figure out a way to do it without multiclassing into alchemist or something. Spell storing doesn't work on ranged weapons.. and arcane archer only uses bows and is for higher levels anyway. But I guess flaming, corrosive, holy, etc. arrows are close enough.

The endless ammunition enchantment would be nice for a Rapid Shot build, but the +2 bonus cost is pretty steep...


While nothing will change the fact that you could be doing the same thing for a bow that's just plain better, you can lower the cost.
Making it a triggered item with 50, or even 25 charges, will cut the cost drastically, as does a CL1 installation.

Sure it'll run out, but for a few hundred GP it's STILL worth it: Adamantine, Acid and flaming bolts are all MUNDANE ammo!

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