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So, my old DM buddy has been out of the game for a while, and now has a chance to play in a Kingmaker and is really interested in the Dawnflower Dervish. He wants to go Human, and min/max the heck out of it. I agreed to help him, but need a bit of help. Here is the parameters:
15 Point Buy.
Dawnflower Dervish Bard.
ACG Swashbuckler is available.
Weapon Finesse is available as a trait.
The Weapon Swap feat is available.
No problem with dump stats.
Any advice?
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Well, two weapon fighting is not a must. I just wanted to provide what was available.
I think the choice of Human, as a race, is not really something that can be changed.
Also, he doesn't mind dumping intelligence, or wisdom, if that works.
We will actually have another Bard on the team, so he really doesn't need to be a buffer, or a skill monkey.
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Doing a Dawnflower Dervish in a party with another conventional Bard is not an optimal choice, because his performance, while better than the other Bard's, won't stack with it. An Archivist or Court Bard would be a better partner for the Dervish since those bonuses (or penalties to enemies) would stack.
Here's a Dawnflower build. It starts with a level in Urban Barbarian and stays Bard the rest of the way. This is NOT a build I came up with but is found at this PLACE. Note that the damage calculated at the end is based on a 25 point buy. I'm not a fan of the Dance of 23 steps masterpiece myself.
Da build:
Traits: Optismistic Gambler (replace with Beserker of Society if playing in Pathfinder Society); Blade of Mercy; UB1) Power Attack, Cleave, Controlled Rage, Crowd Control; DD2) Dervish Dance, Battle Dance (swift) (26 rounds per day), Cantrips, Countersong, Distraction, Fascinate, Inspire Courage +2; DD3) Versatile Performance (Dance), Well-Versed, Enforcer; DD4) Wordstrike; DD5) Arcane Strike; DD6) Inspire Courage +4, Spinning Spellcaster; DD7) Weird Words, Versatile Performance (Oratory), Dodge; DD8) Dance of 23 Steps; DD9) Meditative Whirl, Shield of Swings; DD10) Inspire Greatness; DD11) Jack-of-all-trades, Versatile Performance (Comedy); Deadly Aim; DD12) Inspire Courage +6
Note – Dance of 23 Steps is a masterpiece purchased with a 2nd level known spell. Because he is human, as a favorite class option he can choose to gain a new spell learned at each level. He did so at 8th level and then replaced that spell learned with this masterpiece.
Max Scimitar Damage at 12th: (+21 /+16) 1d6 + 1 (BoM) + 6 (PA) + 3 (AS) + 2 (Magic) + 2 (Rage) + 6 (Dex) + 6 (IC) = (+21 /+16) (1d6 + 26)
My guess would be as a bard, you'll have a decent amount of skill points and will have a decent CHA score so while it doesn't have to be an "intimidation focused PC" it can be a useful tool. If you can get your damage to non lethal (Blade of Mercy), it will provide a pretty much always on penalty (every scimitar and weird word attack will do slashing damage which can force free repeated intimidate checks) to saving throws, AC and skill/ability checks.
Cleave is probably just a way to get a second attack at low levels or when you are unable to use a full attack action. With a high DEX, +1 to Dodge and +1 to hit (when adjacent to 2 opponents), and the ability to bump DEX an additional +4 with rage, the penalty to AC for using it is negligible.
...
Also, with the linked build, why Cleave?
Cleave is a standard action, and doesn't seem to mesh well with things like Haste.
With the character good at waltzing across the battlefield, I can only suppose the original builder thought that cleave would be a way to get an extra attack in. As 3/4 BAB class it's not as though it wouldn't have its uses. Great at low levels but I don't see where the build would suffer without it.
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Take enforcer so that when your friend upgrades his scimitar to a keen scimitar he'll be guaranteed to frighten his opponent every other round. Make sure that if he goes with the enforcer combo he also takes the Blade of Mercy trait so that he doesn't get a penalty to doing non-lethal damage. Also it would not hurt if he takes the Sound Striker Archetype as well, it stacks with DD.
I have an alias for my PFS character, Sana'a who was a DD that dipped 2 levels of unarmed fighter to take crane wing (though that is very much a suboptimal choice now). I believe her stat sheet is up to date. Also the Aasimar FCB allows him to improve one performance by 1/4 a level, i would suggest improving inspire courage so that when you can't get into melee you can still help party members out. I would also suggest boots of haste. Even without power attack she out damaged the party fighter during battle due to excessive crit fishing.
If he wants to optimize then Azata Aasimar is it, Nothing else matches it.
Here is a build
Str 7
Dex 22 (16 +2 race, +14th, +18th, +2belt)
con 14
Int 13
Wis y
Cha 18 (14 +2 race, +2 headband)
Trait: Muscel bound of the society lets your str count as a 9 for ecumbrance. If you need to take a campaing trait ask if Sword scion can be flavored to allow a special case for a scimitar, if not paci whatever else you wan.
FeatS:
1st: Extra Performance
3rd: Master Performer (+1 inspire Courage, extrap performace pre req.)
5th: Flag Bearer
7th: Improved Initiative
9th: Grand Master Performer
Be Lawful Good and level in Paladin after 9th
At 9th level you will want the banner of the ancient Kings, keep it in two hands for the +4 to initiative. Also adds 4 to bard level for inspire. WIth racial bonus you cound as 17th level for inspire now. And if doubles Flag Bearer moral bonus.
BAB +6, Dex +6, Dance +12, Flag +2, Weapon +1
+27/+21 1d6+21 15-20 x2 +1 keen weapon (you want a courageous weapon, everyone will with your flag. You can replace your keen weapon later and get improved critical as a feat. So your still playing the selfish bard but giving a +2 moral bonus to all within 30' Your will save will not be great until level 11 then it will be fine if you went into paladin. I would go oath of vengence and you can coast and just smite everything late into the AP.
You could dump int instead of Str and get power attack but I thing the SP are better. You will be getting 7per level and you still have all Knowledges, and Verstile Performance's And your damage will be fine.
Oh yeah get a wand of the 1st level witch spell that restores a Spell like ability so you can have glitterdust all the time as well :)
Flagbearer works great and was made for dervish bard if you ask me with banner of the ancient kings. Read dervish dance, it only requires you not to be wielding a weapon or shield in off hand holding a flan is fine.
a 7 str is fine as well, celestial armor is the goal armor for the build it is 20lbs. You sword is 4lbs and the flag is 5 lbs. You probably want a +2 str Ioun stone though so you can carry other gear :) Power attack is great and fine but you will not need it. a 9th level 2 handed fighter will be doing 2d6+23 with weapon training power attack and a +1 weapon assuming same str as dervish has dex. His to hit though is only BAB 9, Str 6, Weapon Training 2, Weapon Focus 1, G. Weapon Focus 1, Weapon 2 So a +22, +19 after power attacking so +19/+14 while the dervish is at +27/+22 so Dervish won't miss much and its damage per hit is only 4.5 behind on average, but you crit more as said though you can go pure combat and face character by dumping wis, and int and making the str 13 and making the improved init feat power attack instead. You BAB 6 so your going +25/+20 for 1d6+25 up to how you want to do it.
Sorry master performer and grandmaster performer are in the faction guide. Enforcer again is ok but not worth the feat investment for me and doesn't work on anything immune to non leathal damage or immune to fear or mind effecting so good luck with it.
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Master Performer does look cool.
Enforcer + Blade of Mercy, or Flagbearer seems to be the choice here.
I do know that you can have anything in your off-hand, except a weapon, or shield, and Dervish Dance will work.
I think the Scion of Humanity Azata-Blooded Aasimar is a surefire thing though.
EDIT: Optimistic Gambler has been vetoed.
Azata blooded Aasimar isn't as powerful as people make it out to be. I've run the numbers, and they work out to a +2 bonus to attack in the early levels and a +4 bonus to attack in the late levels. Definitely nice, but not the Be All End All of optimization. There's a definite argument to be made for human, as the favored class bonus allows for a much more flexible spell list that can respond to a wider variety of situations.
I'm running an Azata DD in a campaign right now. Our group doesn't have a wizard, so I heavily considered going human for the spell variety. I decided against it because my character build takes a two level dip early on, and I wanted to use the Aasimar FCB to make that time back in terms of the performance bonus.
BBT, Azata is probably the best choice in your case simply because the low point buy gives the +2 Dex/+2 Cha more mileage. It depends on if your group has an arcane caster (and/or dedicated buffer) or not. There's also Darkvision to consider, which is always nice.
sound striker is not a good idea for anyone atm.
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It is not overpowered, it is underpowered if anything. It is the mass volume of rolls that are required every time the bard uses this ability.Besides being viewed as "overpowered", what is the problem?
I thought it was second best to the Thundercaller anyways.
Oh.
I get pretty extreme views on the archetype, from both sides.
From grossly overpowered, to terribly underpowered.
Nobody seems to agree.
Really nice thread! I've been considering a DD bard with a two-level dip into Divine Hunter for Cha to saves and Precise Shot (free bonus feat) as a way of solidifying a backup ranged options. Does anyone have any thoughts?
Gwen: The saves would be sweet, and the Smite can be applied to melee just as easily as ranged so that's pretty sweet as well. But without strength to back it up (and the entire point of DD is to go all dex) your bow won't pack much of a punch. The archery part probably won't be helpful beyond the very early levels unless you save your smite for your ranged attacks. With that said, it's just as good as any other Pally dip, and precise shot is one of the nicest bonus feats possible for a ranged backup option. Divine Hunter is a good archetype to take, because you're not taunted by being capable of wearing heavy armor but being unable to wear it. Having medium armor proficiency also allows you to pick up some mithral medium armor down the line, which is nice.
Over all, it's a decent dip with some good advantages. It limits you to being a Lawful Good (required for Pally) follower of Sarenrea (required for Dervish of Dawn) but if your concept went in that direction anyway than cool beans.
inspire courage will still work with a bow as far as I know. Why would you not rely on the bonus damage from that when you absolutely must act at range?
*blinkblink* That's a VERY good point. You'd only be losing out on the dex-to-damage part at that point.
*Goes to check if Agile can be applied to bows* No. :(
But it still makes the bow a more effective backup weapon.
BBT- Well P.A. isn't as effective on this build because of the 3/4 BAB and one handed weapon. At the same time, a lot of these bonuses increase chances to hit as much as they increase damage, so it could be worth it. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to get out of moonlight stalker anyway, since you have no Sneak Attack to apply. Seems like a choice between offense and defense. If that's the case, will you be taking a lot of feats/items that enhance AC? 20% miss chance will matter more or less based on the answer to this question.
Lone Knave- Point. That would be a very different build (probably using Tengu or some other claw and bite race) but it would be worth looking at. The Dervish Dancer Bard might be a better choice for this path, though.
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Yeah.
The only two things that are unchangeable, are the class/archetype, and the "Aasimar or Human" race restriction.
If it helps, this is a big group, and he really is only truly concerned with hitting often, and hard, with his weapon.
Everything else is just sort of gravy.
He won't really need to fill any "role". Besides, not being "the Load".
moonlight stalker is a fun way to make something somewhat situational less so with the blur spell. At least it would give some interesting casting flavour to his characters mystique.