Greetings! I'm about to start running WotR for a group of experienced players, and am going to run them through as non-mythic.
I have already run through chapters 1-5 as a "test case" using the suggested non-mythic rules as follows:
Campaign Rules::
1) Build is 20 point buy, generally following PFS (pathfinder society) character construction rules
2) PCs are eligible for the Iomedae boon at the end of Chapter 1 if they perform the requisite tasks
3) PCs will get the stat bumps suggested at the end of Chapter 1 (+4 to one stat, +2 to two other stats - all of the players choice).
4) PCs will use the fast XP track. This means:
a) Book 1 remains level 1-6
b) Book 2 is levels 7-10
c) Book 3 is levels 11-14
d) Book 4 is levels 15-17 (level 16 for the Hepzamira fight unless they rest)
e) Book 5 is levels 17-19 (level 19 for Baphomet fight)
f) Book 6 - PCs hit level 20 after the Drezen battle, end the campaign at level 20...
5) In addition, I intend to modify the wardstone shards so that they are permanent type items that grant a few useful effects (protection from evil 1/day, evil outsider bane 1/day, reroll a d20 1/day, DR 5/epic 1/day. Duration effects are for 1 hour)
House Rules on Mythic Monsters:
For mythic monsters and effects, a few changes are needed.
1. Since PCs won't have mythic at all, I'm intentionally avoiding abilities that make monsters immune to non-mythic effects. I am letting them have enhanced protection (like Mythic Lightning Reflexes)
2. For mythic effects that hurt the PCs and bypass normal protections, I'm adopting a two part policy:
a) If the PCs would normally be immune to something, the mythic version bypasses the immunity but is still reduced in some fashion. Example: A Mythic Magic Missile deals half damage to someone with Shield up. A mythic Dominate allows a second save the next round for someone with Protection from Evil up. Things that reduce damage only reduce half as much, immunity generally results in half damage or a +4 save bonus.
b) the monster must always use a mythic power point to use the ability. This applies to things like Mythic Poison attacks - PCs always have delay poison up and I want to be able to bypass it when it is appropriate. Again, the Delay Poison would grant a +4 save as compensation.
3. The wardstone shards mentioned above have 4 powers, but only two can be used each day. I figure most PCs will use the re-roll, and then the either the DR 5/epic or Bane effects.
4. In general, the outsiders are all getting a few free extra powers (whether they are mythic or not).
a. CR 8+ outsiders can use greater teleport as a move action (at will)
b. CR 12+ outsiders get quicken spell like ability as a bonus feat
c. CR 15+ outsiders can quicken greater teleport
d. All outsider ability to Summon is as a standard action
e. CR 12+ outsiders can summon as a move action
f. CR 18+ outsiders can summon as a swift action
5. Most of the monster improvements are to help with action economy, buffing, and survivability. I may host up my stat blocks at some point, but I won't promise the level of detail Sc0rpion8 did with his work (great job!).
Notes on the Simulated run:
When I ran my simulation, I mistakenly thought the Wardstone fragments were permanent items (so the PCs had evil outsider bane weapons for all of chapter 2-5).
The PCs had little crafting, but there was no limitation on magic item purchase - I assume Crusader allies (and the Key NPCs in book 1 and 2) facilitated these purchases.
The PCs made good use of Auranshalea - letting her keep Desna's Staff, along with her ability to Greater Teleport at will, made her an excellent support character, and personal shopper. She had to fetch the PCs from the Abyss a few times, as the party did not have the ability to cast Plane Shift or Greater Teleport (had to rely on reems of scrolls).
Overall, the Test party has done well - I used the books as written for Chapter 1 and 2, and in Chapter 3 started severely buffing up enemies to compensate. Some fights were challenging, and I had the following comments (other GMs have suggested similar things):
Key Learnings for Non-Mythic parties::
1 - Saves are critical. PCs will need ways to make lots of important saves, and without Mythic - they need to do it the old fashioned way. This is why I plan on modifying the Wardstone Shards further to grant the d20 reroll.
2 - AC is important up to a point. Some monsters (even with my rebuilds) couldn't hit any of the PCs. Boss monsters rarely missed. I found that Communal StoneSkin was the most powerful buff in the game (as long as it lasted).
3 - Without Mythic spellcasting, damage spells were ineffective against the monsters. The PCs could not keep up with the extra HP I had to put on bad guys so the monsters could survive PC weapon-based full attacks. Consequently, casters that relied on "save or suck" effects excelled. Spamming Suggestion and Confusion worked fantastically. The only damage that worked was the Thundercaller ability (Supernatural ability to Soundburst for increased damage multiple times per round with no save - a best case DPR magic build).
4 - Paladin smiting was the most effective damage dealing. Two-handing a scimitar with power attack led to obscene amounts of damage, even on a non-mythic PC (granted, with a +2 anarchic gift stat bump and a +4 pseudo-mythic stat bump).
5 - Consequently, the Paladin died the most. Deaths were common, about 1-3 per chapter. The AP grants sufficient resurrection/raise boons, this was never a big deal. The only time there was a near TPK was vs. Xanther Vang. I significantly modified his summons ability (kicking out Level 7 "fiendish" elementals as a swift and a standard). The deadliness of this fight was mostly due to the party trying to do the whole dungeon in one run (same thing happened in the mines of Chapter 4, but Hepzamirah was insta-killed with a McGuffin from Chapter 3).
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sounds awesome and I look forward to your detailed summary. I can't believe that so many groups seem to have finished the AP already, we are only in book two and started basically two months after the first chapter of the AP got out.
I have been running a non-mythic version of the AP as a simulation, planned for an upcoming group I am running for. So these are simulated fights (using a party of PCs based on some PFS character I’ve run in the past)
Parameters:
Four characters, 20 point buy, no mythic allowed. Using the suggested optional rules for the non-mythic campaign (stat increase, fast XP track, but NO hero points).
The characters:
Human Paladin (Sarenrae) with scimitar: Pretty basic paladin, but with INT 13 for Unsanctioned knowledge. AC not too great (with two-handing the scimitar) so he dies most frequently.
Human Monk/Fighter/Ranger maneuver based. High AC, low damage, does trip, disarm and grapple shenanigans
Human Urban Druid (lust charm domain): At low level, uses Precise and Point blank shot to throw snowballs and alchemicals. At 5th level and beyond, spams Suggestion and Confusion with incredibly high DCs. At highest level of play, uses Dazing (no SR) spells to incapacitate enemies.
Aasimar Bard (thundercaller, dirge bard): Obvious shenanigans with the Thunder Call soundburst, but at higher levels I ruled the Stun effect did not happen (DC was too low at 12 +CHR mod). I did allow 3x thunder calls per round (move/swift/standard) at higher levels. Lots of AOE damage, should be on-par with a very well built evoker or sorcerer.
PC Death Summary:
Chapter 1: No deaths
Chapter 2: No deaths
Chapter 3: FIVE deaths
Paladin death to surprise sneak attacks from multiple Ghoul Ninja 10
Paladin Death #2 to full attacking mythic Vrock.
Druid killed by Angel Hunter (Ranger 15, named bullet, favored enemy):
Paladin, Druid, Auranshale turned to stone by Gorgon.
Druid killed by summoned greater elementals in Xanther Vang fight
Paladin killed by summoned greater elementals in Xanther Vang fight
Chapter 4: THREE deaths
Bard killed by Coup-de-Grace while paralyzed from Blasphemy
Paladin killed by Smite Law from the Umbral Dragon
Monk/Ranger killed by full attack from fully buffed Umbral Dragon
Chapter 5: No deaths
Chapter 3 was the first chapter I began “modifying” and likely I made it too hard for the non-mythic party – hence the sudden increase in death rate. A lot of PC vulnerabilities were shored up during Chapter 3, a lot of learning by dying.
Chapter 1 Notes (no spoilers):
As this chapter was non-mythic anyway, it played out fairly normally. With 20 point buy and 4 PCs, things were challenging where they needed to be.
Chapter 1Results:
In the end, the PCs did NOT get all the boons of Iomedae, but did get the bonus feat and 5 bonus HP and skill bump (they missed one item and the +2 Stat bump)
I did give out the +4/+2/+2 stat bumps from the wardstone as recommended, as well as the wardstone shards (evil outsider bane weapons and SR vs. demons). When I run it again, one option for the Wardstone shards (instead of bane or SR) would be to grant the barer one free d20 re-roll per day. I think this will prevent “unlucky deaths” due to poor dice.
I am not using hero points at all, so the PCs just get the boosted stats and wardstone bits to help them in chapter 2 (in addition to Radiance, and the scales of Terendelev).
In this chapter, the non-mythic starts to matter. I did level the PCs at the recommended faster rate, so they ended up being level 10 at the end.
For the early parts of the chapter, the PCs do pretty well. There is no real gear limitations, and the NPCs from the previous chapter can help out (I ruled that the Elf Wizard can use Scribe Scroll and Craft Wand for the party, and the merchant helps them get rare goods brought in before they leave).
The party has good face skills, and makes regular “detect evil” sweeps on the army. They eventually find the shadow drugs on Aron, and determine he is innocent. So that problem is avoided, but the traitor Nurah is not detected. The party also uses the spells Keep Watch and Bed of Iron from knights of the inner sea, so they’re not caught unprepared at night (this takes up all the paladins level 1 spells though).
The army battles are un-interesting, and in the future I will hand-waive them.
The battle at the fallen chapel is also relatively easy, as the PCs wade through the undead, gargoyles, cultists, and demons. The final Nabassu would have been a threat, but he lost initiative and the paladin went first and smite-crit’d him (with the evil outsider bane Radiance). While this didn’t kill the Nabassu outright, it put it on the defensive and it only got one turn.
The Vescavore swarms are a little tougher. The PCs identify what they are and what they do before heading in. They use up a bunch of alchemical consumables and buff spells to get saves up. The party is low on area attacks, and by the time the swarms are dead, the paladin loses his full plate mail. The Vescavore Queen is an easy kill (smite evil, evil out sider bane). In order to make things interesting, I let the Vrock come through anyway. The PCs were down on resources by then, and the Vrock summoned a 2nd Vrock. The second Vrock almost wiped the party, as the paladin was out of smites (and low on AC). Mirror Image was a nasty buff on the Vrocks as well. Definitely a case where bad luck almost TPK’s (and the first real threat the party experienced). At this point, the party would learn to hate Mirror Image with a passion.
The various side fights around Drezen were interesting, but not challenging. Protecting the bridge was challenging from a “stop the badguys from going” standpoint, but not a danger standpoint.
The battle with the Chimera was also a bit of a let-down. The PCs were not buffed, but had not used most of their abilities yet. Even acting twice a round, it could not keep up with two PCs melee’ing it with Evil Outsider bane weapons (plus a smite evil), as well as the ranged energy damage from the casters. A tough fight, but not a serious one.
Chapter 2: Fort Drezen:
The initial assault on Drezen goes well. The PCs enter fully buffed up and level 8 (so no real change from Mythic yet). They’re able to blast their way through most fights – one such battle involves demons from multiple areas. The druid’s ability to spam confusion is incredibly useful. As a spell, it is very effective at all levels, since it typically causes badguys to hurt each other (or themselves). And the more enemies (greater danger) the more likely it is to work. It is very useful at turning the tide.
Nurah is with the PCs for the first foray and betrays them in the original vault (locking them in). The PCs get out by using a wand of dimension door and continue on. They eventually find their way to Staunton Vhane (not supported by Nurah) and take him down easily (such an obvious Smite target). They also rescue SV’s cowardly brother. After these fights, they head back, rest, and hit level 9. Nurah escapes for good (per her morale box) to report to superiors elsewhere. The duelist succubus decides to head below and wait there (not wanting to take her chances with the PCs after Nurah warns her of their abilities).
Interrogating the dwarf coward nets the group lots of useful information – they know about the undead and vampires below, as well as the salamanders (and prep magic circle vs. evil and communal resist fire accordingly). The actual fights below are tough, again with multiple encounters triggering at once. One PCs gets dominated by the vampire and is restrained while the paladin smite-kills it. The group finds the coffin room (stone shapes the way open) and smashes the coffins. The PCs also have a few negative levels from the vampires and spectres
The group faces the Conjuror and the Succubus duelist at the same time. Again, some bad will saves results in dominate/suggestion going bad for a bit. The PCs kill the conjuror, but the succubus duelist escapes (forever). The group has to leave and rest after this run, due to low resources and many negative levels.
Final Run into Drezen:
This time, the party is fully protected from evil, with maximum buffs and perception to find secret doors and traps. The group has very high perception (Ranger and Druid with Elixirs of Vision).
For the battle with the shadow demon I ruled the Mythic creature could ignore protection from evil, but the PC would get a second save the next round. It ended up not mattering, as all three times it was used, the PCs made the initial save (mostly due to the heavy buffing). A smiting paladin eventually ganks the shadow demon, while the party druid hangs back and spams Daylight with a Wand found earlier to keep everything “fair”.
Again, the PCs make use of time and the NPCs to purchase all relevant gear (I did not restrict access to anything).
In this chapter, I began modifying all opponents to increase difficulty. My experience with Kingmaker taught me that at this level, Hexploration is no challenge unless a given hex has at least three serious encounters (to drain resouces). The main challenge from “hexploration” is generally the first encounter is a sucker-punch. No surprise round, but the PCs will only have up all-day buffs; at this level that’s a handful of low impact hour/level spells. When the PCs are about to enter an obvious “dungeon” site, such as a crypt, they will usually be fully buffed.
Level 10 non-mythic buffs:
:
Mage Armor, Barkskin of +4, Heroism, Magic Circle Vs. Evil, Delay Poison, Communal Resist Energy, Alchemical remedies (twitch tonic and soothe syrup), Elixirs of Vision or Stealth, Darkvision. These all add significant bonuses to saves and defense – making PCs immune or highly resistant to many common attack modes. The PCs also have potions, scrolls, and wands of common short-duration buffs on an as-needed basis.
Heroism is cheesed a bit by making it a level 2 Paladin spell through Unsanctioned Knowledge (so it can be re-cast with a 4000gp pearl of power). The paladin also has Magical Knack to improve his caster level.
Pearls of power and Rods of lesser extend make these buffs meaningful and long-lasting. A high take-10 perception means not having to stop and search for so long that your buffs wear off. A wand of detect secret doors further eliminates the need for a time-intensive search of a dungeon.
Again, once you know to expect some kind of danger, it’s worth the resource (and possibly gold) expense to buff up.
The PCs started Chapter 3 at level 10 (fast XP track).
First set of hexploration:
The group explores Area J:
Modified to include one “Advanced + 2 HD Bodak” and 2 normal bodaks. Boss Bodak killed in one round to a smite. Remainder died equally quickly to normal attacks. “Fort Negates” with low save essentially does nothing to the PCs
Added 2 dread wraiths to the Nabassu fight: Nabassu died quickly to a smite, the dread wraiths were useless as the PCs easily made the Fort saves
Drake Attack
I made this two drake riders, and rebuilt the riders and drakes +1 level / +1 CR to both. They caught the PCs with minimal buffs, but were hit by AOE save or suck (you only need to hit the rider OR the mount for it to work). One ride-by-attack did significant damage to the paladin, but the rider didn’t get a second attack.
Area G: Delamere’s Tomb
Added three entropic greater magma elementals as fight nearby. Not much of a challenge (high perception notices them, they have low will saves for Confusion).
Ran Shathach as written – real challenge was keeping the NPC cleric alive.
Druid is able to cast Atonement and Hallow, so the place gets “cleaned up” the next day and the party earns the Erastil treasure – which will help at the end of Book 4.
Area F: Eagle’s Rock
Added fight with modified grimslakes, abyssal tic swarms.
Second encounter with advanced (template + HD) Carniverous Crystal
Main fight with Derakni (unmodified).
All the fights did damage, but none were particularly challenging. Lots of resources were used up though.
Area H: Wintersun Hall
Random encounter with Nabassu Rogue5 and two ghoul ninja10s working as a team. Good ambush from them hit the party hard while un-buffed. The combined sneak attack powers of the ghouls and Nabassu kills the paladin before people stop being flat-footed. The group uses its only True Res at this time.
Second fight is with a single Dwiergeth. Fight is anti-climactic (it cannot swallow medium creatures, so would recommend using the GIANT template in the future). Also, severely impacted by Tanglefoot Bags.
Reaching the Wintersun Mansion, the group is escorted in (one PC has the appropriate campaign background). As expected, the negotiation with the leader goes badly.
Mooks are upgraded to FTR5/Barbarian2 to be reasonably effective. Bard and Druid spam Fear and Confusion to neutralize the mooks while the Paladin smite-kills the Drake and the Monk grapples the barbarian into unconsciousness.
Second set of hexploration, Level 11:
Area M: The Molten Scar
Added random encounter with 3 Harpy ranger 5’s.
The harpies were easily dispatched, but the fight drew the attention of the Vrocks a few minutes later (long enough to buff a little bit for both sides). Two advanced vrocks and the mythic vrock teleported in. The PCs were hit hard with these two fights – and the vrocks ability to teleport in with Mirror Image active made them impossible to kill quickly. Full attacks from the Mythic Vrock eventually killed the Paladin (again). One PC also failed a Stun save and that had a domino effect. The Monk/Ranger with High AC eventually wore down the Vrock in one-on one fight. The group had to teleport back to Drezen and use a normal Raise Dead + Restorations
Finishing up the Molten Scar, the group encounter a Hag Covey consisting of an advanced green hag and a witchfire. The fight is otherwise uneventful.
Area L: The Woundwyrm
Random encounter with 4 rot grub swarms is not a challenge. PCs let the high HP/saves ranger monk act as bait while they dropped AOE effects on him to kill the swarms (thanks to Evasion and Resist Energy).
The PCs can easily Identify the woundwyrm’s environs and the basic acidic nature. The group puts up significant buffs, including resist acid and communal Stoneskin. The dragon is not much of a threat, especially with the High AC character drawing agro while the paladin is teleported in for the smite-kill.
The group then heads back to Level up.
Third set of hexploration, Level 12:
The group now has access to Communal Phantom Steed through the Bard, which speeds up the Hexploration a bit. The group still relies on UMD and scrolls of Teleport to return home in an emergency.
Area K: The fallen Fane
Modified the Templars – half of them were anti-paladin 9’s, the rest Inquisitor 9’s. This allowed for better buffing and quick offense (Smite/Bane/Judgement/Divine Bond).
I made Zenadra Level 12, and added the advanced template to the Eidolon. Added 2 Brimorak Fighter1/Eldritch Knight 4 (CR 9) to support Zenadra. Neither fight was challenging for the PCs (since they entered the Fane fully buffed for trouble). Zendra escaped and never returned.
Random Hex
I added a random hex with the following encounters, centered around a Lamashtu cult:
a): 3 Gnoll Ranger 9 (melee focused) and two “Yaenit” demons (basically a CR8 evil version of a hound archon).
b): The Angel Hunter: Half Orc Ranger 15 (modified by me to be more effective) – shows up halfway through fight (a).
c) 3 Gnoll Ranger 9, 2 Gnoll Cleric 11, one Yaenit demon.
The angel hunter managed to kill the Druid with a Flurry of favored enemy attacks and named bullet/instant enemy. After the fight, the Paladin used Supreme Mercy to bring the druid back up. After the initial volley from the angel hunter, the group threw up a wind-wall to protect themselves and heal up. Disarming Monk/Ranger got into position and neutralized the archer in one round (trip/disarm).
Rescuing Auranshalea:
The encounter was run mostly as written – with the Drake-Riders using the advanced versions previously used. All of the demons were given the advanced template. Jarnnicka was advanced to Cleric 11. The PCs were able to heavily buff and then teleport directly next to the tower (the druid had the campaign trait for Auranshalea, and was contacted by her as they neared the site).
Because the fight ends up being CR 15-18ish with all the demons, it is quite bloody. The Ranger goes down to multiple effects, but is brought back with a HEAL. Multiple scrolls of HEAL are used in the fight, and Auranshalea’s sniping is very useful to pick off wounded enemies. When the Will o Wisps show up, the party quickly puts up communal resist energy. The party mostly stays alive via critical buffs like Stoneskin (which I ruled was reduced by swarm damage).
At this point, the whole group heads back to Drezen with the magic bell, levels to 13th and gears up for the assault on the Ivory Labyrinth.
Level 13, The Debacle at the Ivory Labyrinth:
The group brings along Auranshalea for this part of the adventure (I used her as statted in the AP). When they reach the Lair, they send Auranshalea to scout ahead, She sees 3 Fiendish advanced gorgons (not basilisks) but cannot identify them. The druid goes ahead but also cannot identify them, but does find the illusory wall and the gate behind it with Echolocation. The group decides to buff and Dimension door on top of the three beasts and start the fun.
A series of Failed saves sends this fight way downhill fast. The druid, Paladin, and Auranshalea get turned to stone by a triple breath attack, and the Monk/Ranger and Bard have to fend off the rest. Meanwhile, the door guards (Half Fiend Minotaur Fighter 2) throw unholy blights into the two survivors when it looks like they are winning against the Gorgons. The gorgons are eventually defeated, and the bard D-Doors the statues out of danger. Luckily the bard has Break Enchantment and frees his allies from petrification.
The group decides with all the buffs up to head back in. This time, however, the base is on alert.
The Team puts up haste, bard song, and shadow bard, trying to sneak in with Invisibility sphere. Unfortunately, Baphomet Templars (again, an even mix of Inquisitor 9 and anti-paladin 9) are waiting for them fully buffed with See Invisibility up. The druid unloads a dazing stonecall, and the group D-doors the fighters past the door and begins mixing it up. An interesting fight wherein all six minotaurs and 6 of the Templars are killed, as well as the two (advanced) Kalavakas demons at Q9. One Templar runs towards Area Q14-17 to get help, and the party lets him go (but watches).
The party smartly spends a few rounds to regroup and heal, while the Blackfire adepts at Q15 use their scrolls to summon BlackFire Elementals (basically Fiendish Advanced Earth Elementals). The party blasts into Q15 and slaughters the tanks, but two of the Blackfire adepts D-door away. As a note, the Blackfire Adepts were Level 10, so they could trade spells for Unholy blights to hit the party with (as well as other spell changes).
The group then pops the door to Q16 – where they fight 4 Deraknis and the two fleeing Blackfire adepts. They manage to kill everything but one Deraknis (which flees forever).
Xanther Vang
The Monk/Ranger is unable to open the door to Xanthe Vang’s room, but the Druid is able to Stone Shape the door away. Fully buffed and healed, the group faces Xanther Vang for the first (of many) times.
Xanther Vang is completely rebuilt by me and levelled up to Conjuror 8 / BF Adept 7, so he can cast level 7 spells (and summon Greater Blackfire Elementals). Xanther had enough time to buff (all of his 10 min and 1min per level buffs are up, but none of his round per level – he was not expecting them to stone-shape his door immediately).
Without mook support, It is obvious Xanther would be Paladin Food, so he teleports away in Round 2 (after summoning some Greater BF Elementals and pounding on the PCs a bit) – immediately heading to his Retrievers. He sends his Retrievers to attack the PCs to buy time.
The PCs are able to heal a bit before the retrievers arrive, and kill them easily within two rounds and heal up a bit more before XV arrives for his second appearance.
Second Fight with XV:
XV rallies the remaining four Blackfire Adepts, the three (advanced) Nel Thaggaus, and the Thanadaemon. The Thanadaemon summons Hydrodaemons to scout the dungeon and keep an eye on the PCs (make sure of where they are while the bad guys continue to buff). XV also convinces Jeribeth to help, but she senses the chance to get him killed and when the badguys teleport, she intentionally arrives one round later.
While the badguys wait, the PCs have time to steal XV’s chests and books (stone-shaping them out of the floor and dropping them in a portable hole for later).
This second fight goes bad for the PCs, not realizing the summoning circle in XV’s lair lets him summon buffed (good hope + haste) creatures. XV goes first, summoning up two more Greater Blackfire Elementals on his turn. The Paladin and Druid are killed by the GBFEs massive power-attack-smite good hits (they are +22 to hit for 2d8+23 +13 smite, with three attack each). Jerebeth acts twice per round, and her first round is mostly ineffective – with her Power Word Stun and Destruction not getting through the high hit point bard. The group only manages to kill one Nel Thagga and the Thanadaemon before using dimension door to retreat.
The group heals up using what consumables remain, and casts Raise Dead on the Paladin (tossing the druid’s corpse in a portable hole for later). Pressing the fight, the group goes in again.
Third Fight with XV
This time, the group Dimension Doors into the main chamber, hoping to catch secondary enemies unaware and wear down the opposition. The remaining Nel-thagga and two more blackfire adepts are killed before the group retreats again.
At this point, the PCs are fully buffed, but low on Hit points. They have exhausted literally every ounce of healing they have (scrolls, potions, wands, spells, etc.), and are running low on the wand of dimension door. As a foolish last ditch effort, the group Teleports to Drezen directly, drops off the druids body, has every nearby cleric cast cure/channel on them to fully heal, then Teleports back to the IvoryLabryinth for a Fourth and final assault.
The Fourth (but not final) battle with XV
It has been 5-10 minutes since the last fight - A few buffs have been recast to maintain survivability. Jerebeth is scrying XV’s room thinking the PCs would head there first. She alerts XV, who gathers what forces remain (the last NelThagga, the final two Templars) while the Coloxus demon and two blackfire adepts start burning documents in Q10. Once again, Jerribeth arrives one round behind XV to attack the PCs.
At this point, XV is also low on powers, but he’s still got the depth of spells to use. He spends his last high level spell and last mythic point to get two GBFE’s. These quickly drop the Paladin. The bard dimension door’s the paladin out so he can start healing him, then dimension door’s back to evacuate the rest of the party while the paladin heals himself up with Cure moderate wounds potions. The Monk/Ranger and Araunshalea kill the last two Templars and Nel Thagaus. The two cannot bring down the GBFE (but because they aren’t smite targets, they can stand up to them a bit). The group Dimension doors to outside to heal up.
Fed up with the PCs sniping tactics, XV sends the GBFE to look for the PCs with earth glide and Telepathy (from Jeribeth). They eventually find them, and the last bit of monsters descends on the PCs: Two blackfire adepts, one Coloxus demon, Jeribeth, Xanther vang, and two damaged GBFE.
This battle is rough, as everyone is low on resources. The adepts die quickly, as does one GBFE. Ironically, it is Jeribeth’s death that spells victory for the PCs. Auranshalea gets a lucky series of shots off on her, killing her before she can escape. Once she dies, Xanther Vang decides that he’s seen enough (and with her dead, it’s a small victory for him) and leaves.
The PCs ended up with most of the documents they needed (they stole XVs stash, literally prying it off the floor) – forcing Xanther vang to flee and killing everything else (including the Mythic Glabrezue Jeribeth).
I may need to tone down this fight, perhaps dropping XV back down to level 6 summons, and not making the Blackfire Elementals so devastating (the smite Good enabled a lot of deaths, but I did change the DR from 10/-- to 10/good). Of course, trying to do the entire Base in one go was a bit overzealous.
Time is spent gearing up (and removing negative levels) A lot of money is spent on consumable healing and transportation (no one can cast Teleport or plane shift). Auranshalea stays behind with the Staff of Spheres as an “emergency evac” system. She is also fully redeemed, granting her anarchic bonus to all PCs.
Level 14 non-mythic buffs:
:
Mage Armor, Barkskin of +5, Heroism, Magic Circle Vs. Evil, Delay Poison, Communal Resist Energy, Freedom of Movement, Alchemical remedies (twitch tonic and soothe syrup), Elixirs of Vision or Stealth, Darkvision. These all add significant bonuses to saves and defense – making PCs immune or highly resistant to many common attack modes. The PCs also have potions, scrolls, and wands of common short-duration buffs on an as-needed basis (Good Hope, Bard Song, Shield, Mirror Image). The party also has high perception, with Echolocation up on most PCs most of the time (to fight off Mirror Images).
Again, once you know to expect some kind of danger, it’s worth the resource (and possibly gold) expense to buff up.
The PCs started Chapter 4 at level 14 (fast XP track). The adventure normally calls for L12/MR5 PCs, so the higher level should balance out the lack of Mythic, but the monsters still need to be toughened up.
The assault on the Midnight Fane:
The party arrives at the Fane with a full escort of NPCs, then buffs with minute per level items (Divine Bond, Good Hope, etc.) and approaches the front door.
The entryway is guarded by two advanced stone golems (CR13), with the Ash giants nearby upgraded to be Barbarian 4’s. Rolling fight in the entryway is tough, and requires a few rounds of healing.
The party then heads into the “grinder” room, fighting of the Incubii (which are upgrade to Magus7’s) and the Lamia Ursathella (who is upgraded Eldritch Knight 7 and rebuilt). The Incubii get Confused by the Druid, and the Lamia fails to hit with her full attack on the Paladin. The return-fire Smite destroys her in one full round attack.
The group then finishes cleaning out the Fane, confronting the Alchemist (upgraded to Alchemist14/Fighter1/Barbarian1/Trickster4, modelled after a Vivisector alchemist I ran through Serpent’s Skull). The Gibreleth is advanced to CR15. The fight takes 2-3 rounds, lots of heavy exchanges (the paladin and alchemist miss each other a lot before the Paladin finally overcomes). Minagho’s projected image fails to fool (thanks to Echolocation) and she retreats to the Midnight Isles for later.
The group then cleans out the remainder of the Worldwound side of the Fane, re-casts expired buffs, and begins the ritual. An upgraded (CR 17) Nalfeshnee arrives with quickened Feebleminds and causes some damage before getting killed.
The PCs then head to the Abyss side and fight a pair of CR 15 carniverous crystals, and advanced CR 14 bebiliths without any problems. The group makes the knowledge checks to realize where they are and need to go, but do not have the Greater Teleports to get there. They rely on Auranshalea to be a personal shopper and Planeshift in with scrolls of greater teleport and planeshift (and take back loot for sale). The group uses a Tiny Hut, Bed of Iron and Keep Watch to get a night’s sleep on the Abyssal Island before moving on.
The Porphyr City:
The group is good at Diplomacy (three PCs) and easily makes the Gather Information checks. They quickly head to the succubus to “entertain” her and earn 19 notoriety points in skill checks alone.
The group has a random encounter with a group of CR 13 advanced Baregaras and gains notoriety. Tried out the Performance Combat rules, but they really are worthless, and the group wastes time trying to make a show of it. The group then heads to the Arena to fight the champion. GelderFang is rebuilt as Incubus Fighter 10/Champion 4 and gets stomped hard by the Paladin (4:1 odds are silly). Mingaho (rebuilt a bit, but still not effective) nearly kills the Paladin with a surprise sneak attack set, but is then promptly put down by the rest of the party. The dual fight earns even more notoriety.
The group is then ambushed by the Assassin. He gets off a lucky Blasphemy that paralyzes the bard, and his duplicates coup-de-grace the bard. The rest of the party eventually fights off the duplicates (negating opportunity for sneak attack flanks) and the Invidiak gets confused and grappled by the Monk (which puts it into an “attack nearest” state and prevents it from choosing to flee).
The group uses a Resurrection scroll on the bard (pre-purchased) and recovers in preparation for the meeting with Nocticula.
Level 15, meeting Nocticula and Colphyr:
The group easily deals with upgraded CR 11 greater shadows and upgraded Arcane Coloxus (turned into mythic magic missile gunners).
Meeting with Nocticula goes as planned, no one is foolish enough to take a boon from her. The group then enters Colphyr only moderately buffed (unwilling to prep in front of Nocticula).
Upon arrival, the group uses a Wall of Stone to get down from the waterfall. The group avoids the Qlippoth runestone, but is ambushed by the Flayed One (who is promptly destroyed). The group then buffs up, summons phantom steeds, and heads up river.
The first random encounter is Six CR 12 Vrocks – but Echolocation makes the Mirror images useless. The barge fight is against Upgraded CR 12 bodaks, and Level 16 anti-paladin. The team spots them early, uses scrolls of death ward to be safe, then engages (the Anti-Paladin also uses the time to buff). The druid drops a Sunburst that wipes out the Bodaks, and the two melee PCs finish off the Anti Paladin before he can smite one of them.
Second random fight is four upgraded Omoxes (CR13), but the fight is no threat. The group then reaches the guardpost. Both groups detect each other at extreme range, and begin buffing. The PCs are able to lob Confusions and Dazing Aqueous Orbs to neutralize the Templars (changed to Inquisitor 14’s) before dimension dooring to finish them off.
After the battle, the group rests in a Tiny hut using a Nap Stack before heading into the mines proper.
Level 16, The Mines:
After the two hour nap, the group fully buffs, including minute per level items like divine bond, shield (from a caster level 10 wand), mirror image, etc. The group is approached by the Fulsome queen. Realizing she is a demon, the group refuses to cooperate with her and she attacks and is quickly destroyed with minimal resource use. A quick search finds the Fulsome Queen’s lair and loot, then moves on to the Dragon’s Cave.
The dragon is rebuilt as an Entropic Very Old CR 19 (I think the stat block in the module is full of errors).
The Dragon immediately senses someone is in her lair (from out hunting) and buffs herself before Teleporting into the cave directly. She loses initiative and is badly hurt by the PCs and flees to recover. The PCs continue looting her lair, and she returns a few rounds later even angrier. This time she wins Initiative and breaths – knocking the Druid unconscious from Strength Drain. She then uses Smite Law to kill the Paladin, and a Full attack to kill the Monk/Ranger. The bard is forced to hold it off with ThunderCaller soundburst, until Auranshalea can arrive via Plane-Shift + Greater Teleport and bring her Starbow to bear. Eventually the Bard and Auranshalea blast it do death.
The group is shaken by the experience and burns a Resurrection on the Paladin, who then uses Supreme Mercy on the Monk/Ranger. Auranshalea has depleted most of the Staff of Sphere at this point, but it given scrolls of Plane Shift and Raise Dead “just in case”, and told to hide out in the Abyss as backup for a few hours.
The group then finishes healing, repairs the downed buffs, and heads below.
The abyssal harvester is easily detected and killed with Smite (Freedom of Movement makes most of its attacks useless).
The group then Air Walks down the well and confronts the Kalavaks demons (CR 13 advanced) below. The Glabrezu (CR 16 advanced) warden soon shows up, along with his succubii (Sorcer 8, spec’d for heavy acid damage). The Kalavaks disarm the Paladin’s sword down the well, and he has to chase after it. The rest of the group launches area attacks (Dazing Stonecall, Confusion) to slow down the demons while the Ranger tears into them. When the Paladin returns in Round 3, he slaughters the remaining demons (now disarmed by the Fighter/Monk).
With the demons gone, and reasonably low on resources, the group still presses on. The Monk/Fighter easily disarms the Wards and they break into Hepzamirah’s room. She spends a Mythic Point to win Initiative and retreats to gather allies. Moving in rounds, the PCs then begin quickly searching rooms, moving while hasted, and checking for monsters.
Over the course of 10-15 rounds, the PCs kill the Demons guarding the prisoners, remaining Demonaics, and a few half fiend minotuars. The Druid spends her only high level summon to get a group of Stone Giants to start freeing prisoners, which the Bard then uses Plane Shift scrolls on to send them home.
Hepzamirah then arrives, fully buffed, with two of the Baphomet Inquisitor 14’s, and six Half Fiend Mythic Minotaur Fighter 8. Hepzamirah is rebuilt as a Cleric 12.
The Stone giants and Auranshalea spend their actions fighting hordes of lower level Babau and defending the prisoners as they get ready to evacuate. Meanwhile, the Druid tosses up a Dazing Wall of Fire to hold back the tide of Minotaurs. When Hepzamirah enters, she gets off her Mythic Blade Barriers (which do nothing as everyone makes the Reflex save and/or has evasion). What should have been an epic battle ends instantly when the Paladin uses the Talisman of Pure Good to instantly kill Hepzamirah.
After a few rounds of mopping up, The Baphomet/Nocticula boxed text happens.
With the fight over, the PCs finish looting the dungeon and healing before taking Nocticula’s door home.
As one final jerk move, Nocticula secretly contacts Xanther vang, telling him to wait for the PCs at the Midnight Fane – where she intends to send them back. When the PCs arrive, a fully buffed (but the same level he was in Chapter 3) Xanther Vang is waiting with three of his greater blackfire elementals.
This time, the PCs can handle XV and his GBFE’s, even at low resouces. Some Mythic Magic Missiles almost kill the Monk/Fighter, but the Paladin eventually smites his way to success, killing the worm once and for all.
This adventure starts with the Group Level 17. Around 700,000gp in treasure is cashed in and spent gearing up for this adventure. Soshiel donates several scrolls, and Horgus donates additional cash.
The PCs are given “Dimensional Lockets” by Aravashnial that essentially become Personal Dimensional Anchors when activated (takes two standard actions to turn on or off). This makes the PCs immune to Banishment/Blasphemy issues (and also Maze). It negates Dimension Door strategies in combat – instead, many scrolls of Telekinetic charge are purchased. A number of high end buffs are bought –as well as high level scrolls of greater teleport, resurrection, greater restoration, and a mage’s disjunction. The Scroll of Planar Ally is saved for later (and cash for the creature is brought in anticipation)
Once again, Auranshalea is held in reserve with the Staff of Spheres and a few scrolls.
The PCs started Chapter 5 at level 17 (fast XP track). The adventure normally calls for L15/MR7 PCs, so the higher level should balance out the lack of Mythic. In this adventure, every monster had to be made tougher, typically +2 CR (advanced template and a few more hit die, feat changes, etc.)
Party Update, Level 17:
At this point, PC defenses are rather insane. ACs for all PCs are in the 40’s, with the Monk Ranger able to hit 50 with Fighting Defensively (go Crane Style). All PCs have 50% fortification, Evasion, Freedom of Movement, Resist 30 to all energy, Resist 15 to alignment based damage, Airwalk, Stoneskin, Haste (boots or casting), Delay Poison, Life Bubble, Echolocation. Perceptions are +30 to +50, Saves range from +20 to +32.
The Druid can routinely spam Compulsion effects with DC’s from 28-33, or Dazing Heightened no-SR spells with slightly lower DCs. The Bard is the same with Fear effects, and does three thundercalls a round for 50 damage each. The Paladin hits for around 40 damage a shot, crits on a 15-20, and smites for another +20 damage. The Monk/Fighter has twice as many attacks, but only deals about 20-30 damage with poor crits, His main advantage is being +40 to Trip, Disarm and Grapple maneuvers.
At this point, I made sure many of the Mythic monsters had ways to ignore the immunities above – typically the Poison or damage resistances. All monsters used a “superior” version that typically had core abilities enhanced, a few more Hit dice, and +6 to most stats and AC. This made most encounters challenging, but many were still no issue for this highly optimized and buffed party.
Game On!
Into the Abyss:
The PCs meet with Iomedae, makes lots of knowledge checks about the Abyss, and head in. The initial encounters is against a CR 17 “superior” marilith and a trio of Arcane Coloxus demons (from Chapter 4, that spam Mythic Magic Missile). Coming in fully buffed, they try to bluff the demons and eventually fail –and slaughter them. \
The group then knows enough to head to Blackburgh with a Veil up. When the group arrives, they immediately activate dimensional lockets and begin exploring. A random encounter with a single “superior” balor is over quickly, and the PCs are soon contacted by both the Nalfeshnee and the Vescavore Swarm. The party first gets good information from the swarm: the location and purpose of the Father of Worms, and the secret way to the Prison. The encounter with the Nalfeshnee ends violently, as the PCs refuse to go along with his plan. The Nalfeshnee and his cronies die easily, and the PCs decide to head for the Father of Worms next.
In the caves, there is a random encounter with a CR 19 superior nightwalker – but it auto-dies to a failed SunBurst save. The Father of Worms is easily defeated by full attacks from the Monk/Fighter and the Paladin – in this case because of the “shared smite” from Aura of Justice. The group collects the blood and decides to use the surface route, to avoid the darkness effects in the caves. The above ground route results in a few random encounters with Superior Shemhazians and Ultrakeths, but the encounters are underwhelming.
The group locates the Prison, established a place to rest for a day and then reaches level 18.
Assault on the Prison:
The Team uses the scroll of Greater Planar Ally (given at the start by Soshiel) to summon a Planetar for a 15 hour job. The planetar is promised much loot (18.000gp) and is then buffed with Heroism, Barkskin, etc. I used a Bestiary unmodified version of the Planetar (which is probably unfair), but it was mostly there for healing support and extra damage.
The team charges the gate, eating the auto-hit from the Cyclops (upgraded to CR 18). After quick healing, Monk/Fighter is easily able to pick the lock (+44 Disable Device) and the group moves in.
The Ooze fight is challenging, as it is not actually Evil, and I allowed the Mythic poison/paralysis to bypass spell protections. The Party had to break out Remove Paralysis scrolls not used since Chapter 2 and eventually overcame the ooze with raw damage. Halfway through the fight, two upgrade Tarry Demodands arrive, but are beaten down by the Monk/Fighters Disarm/Trip abilities.
From the front door, the group is contacted by Waxeberry, and they follow the helping hand. From this point on, the travel time in the Inelectable Prison becomes a real hindrance, as it continually wears down short duration buffs – travel time is on the order of hours, and many buffs last only one or two hours. The travel time will turn the Prison exploration into a 10-30 hour dungeon crawl if done in a single push.
The team confronts two separate groups of Demodands near the cells (a wandering group of two Tarry’s, and a stringy, and a guard group of two Tarry’s and a Slimy. I modified all Demodands to have variations of Quickened, Intensified, Empowered Chaos Hammers for something different as an attack effect. These extra area effects helped wear down PC hit points and healing.
After freeing Waxeberry the group searched for the Vault and failed, returning to the front door and then the Cells. Upon reaching a second group of cells, they find the dead Astral Deva and resurrect it. The group sends Waxeberry home with a scroll of planeshift, but buffs and keeps the Astral Deva as healing and casting support.
The angel gives details about the Sarenrite ghost, the Linnorm, and the Captured Devil. The group then searches for and finds the Sarenrite ghost and learns of her plight (and where her sword might be). The group then heads to the temple to kill the Drow priest.
At this point, the group is almost 5 hours into their buffs. The cleric is upgraded to level 17 (CR 20/MR6) and caught without major buffs up. With quickened buffs he proves a decent threat before dying to Smites. The group then heals up and heads off in search of the Vault.
With Echolocation and very high perception, the group is not fooled by the vault defenses. The group notices the weird tapestry and does not disturb it. When the golem (added a second golem and advanced both) attack, they lose initiative and are destroyed before they can even act. Once the group has time, they disarm the trap and murder the Labryinth minotaur and Vilsteth one at a time. They then steal all the items and open the gold door to get a map of the dungeon.
With the complete map, the group decides to talk to Alderpash, as he is “feared” and clearly knowledgable.
The conversation with Alderpash is informative. He is amenable to cooperation, explains how to kill Baphomet and all the details of the Herald, the Demodand torturer, the Linnorm, the Warden, the Super Minotaur Hunter, and the Inverted Giant. The PCs get the Idea to try and Dominate Monster the inverted giant.
I ruled that a scroll of Mages Disjunction was not powerful enough to break the CL=27 Binding on Alderpash. With no other way out, the group makes a pact and offers to redeem the lich as well. He is surprisingly helpful and trustworthy.
The basic plan is to kill as many of the enemies as possible using Greater Teleport and the recent map room find, then use Nap Stack in Alderpash’s room before engaging the Herald and drawing out Baphomet. The plan will be to then draw Baphomet to Alderpash’s room for a final confrontation – with angelic and Runelord support.
Level 18: Finishing off the Prison’s key Personnel:
Redoing various buff spells, the group de-activates the dimensional lockets for transport – taking only the Planetar with them (holding the other in reserve with Alderpash).
First is the torture chamber full of Demodands. Even heavily modified, they prove only a moderate challenge for a fully prepared group. The PCs then heal up and head on to the Linnorm. The Paladin grants his smite to the Angel and Monk/Fighter, and the group uses Telekinetic Charge to enable the Fighter/Monk to full attack with 8 smites on the Linnorm, killing it in one round (I only upgraded it to have 500hp, which may change in the future).
The group then heals up and dimensional locks themselves in preparation for the Minotaurs to show up. Two CR 17 labyrinth minotaurs and Inger (anti paladin 12) show up ready to fight, but are quickly slain in turn. The Fighter Monk quickly disarms and Trips Inger, neutralizing his main attacks, while the Paladin and Angel mop up the Labyrinth Minotaurs.
The team then heads to the deep prison cell, quickly dispatching 4 demodands first. The group then uses the scroll of mage’s disjunction to break the Inverted Giant free, while the Druid readies a Dazing Aqueous Orb (Heightened to level 9). The druid tries to Daze the giant and starts a Dominate spell while the Fighter/Monk keeps the giant busy.
The warden soon showed up with more demodands. The Druid finally dazed the Giant, but it saved against two separate DC 34 Dominate Monster checks (consistently rolling natural 19’s and 20’s). With the Giant Dazed, the Fighter/Monk grappled the Conjoined Marilith and Pinned her, enabling the Paladin to Smite her to death. The demodands were easily locked down with Confusions and Thundercalls, but not before setting off multiple “super chaos hammers” dealing 50-100 damage to each party member.
The group easily killed the Marilith and Demodands, but was unable to dominate the giant. Before the Daze wore off, the two melee characters finished off the giant (the Druid was out of Dominates).
The Final battle with baphomet:
The PCs assume they can save the Herald, and use their resources to prep a large longsword and large heavy shield with +5 Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment. The group uses a Nap Stack in Alderpash’s room to prepare, asking him to change his spells to include multiple Telekinetic Charges (to use vs. baphomet).
The party quite literally puts up every buff and scroll they have access to on. Loaded to the neck, the four PCs and the Planetar (only 14 hours into her 18 hour contract) head off to redeem the Herald.
The battle with the Herald is ultimately boring. The Paladin had used Divine Bond on Dawn’s Kiss to make it Merciful, and he knocked the Herald Unconscious while the Monk was grappling it. With the Herald Unconscious, the group inserted the Heart and spammed all of the Atonements.
With the herald redeemed, they cast HEAL on it, gave it the correct sword and shield, and said “game on”. They then called Baphomet a dirty word, set his precious ball of twine on fire, and shouted “see you in Alderpash’s room… PUNK”
The group quickly teleported back to Alderpash, activated the dimensional lockets, and set of an extended Haste and Shadow Bard and prepared for the worst.
THE WORST:
Using Tactics discussed in an earlier thread, Baphomet arrives, sees the PCs, and activates Mythic Time Stop.
Baphomet then uses his Miracle to create an Unhallow with Silence keyed to it.
He then Uses his Scrolls to cast the following at Caster Level 27th:
Greater Arcane Sight
Mage Armor
Barkskin
Shield
Heroic Invocation
Greater Spell Immunity (magic missile, disentigrate, destruction, feeblemind, etc.)
Forsight
Prismatic Wall (down the middle of the room, cutting the party in half)
He then summons 3 Balors with Summon Demons
He then summons 3 Labryinth Minotaurs with his personal Summon ability.
Time stop ends.
The party immediately realizes they are in deep with the Silence. The Druid uses a MM Rod of Greater Silence to cast Confusions onto the Labyrinth Minotaurs and Balors, then moves (already wildshaped into an air elemental) across the room to find the edge of the Silence effect. The Bard heads to that side of the room, uses the remaining scroll of Mages Disjunction to end the Unhallow/Silence effect. The Paldin shares his smite with Aura of Justice and begins murdering Balors.
In the first round, One Balors and two Labyrinth Minotaurs are killed, with almost no effect on the PCs. The Unhallow Silence is down, but the Prismatic Wall is still present.
In the second round, baphomet Continues to hang back, using Greater Dispel (in conjunction with Greater Arcane Sight) to strip the PCs of Fire resistance and Protection, so that when the Balors die – they can at least hurt the party. He then hits the Fighter/Ranger with an IMPRISONMENT, taking him out of the fight.
During the remainder of the Second round, the Paladin and the Angel finish off the Balors and labyrinth Minotaur, while the Bard uses the Rod of Cancellation to kill the Prismatic Wall. Alderpash throws around Evocation effects to finish off the Balors/Labyrinth Minotaurs.
At the Top of the third round, Baphomet continues to dispel buffs on the Paladin, then throws out a CL=27th Blasphemy to kill/paralyze the party. Luckily, everyone saves against it. In round three, the group hangs back from Baphomet – avoiding the full round attack for now. The Angel and Druid throw HEALS around to get everyone fully healed to engage Baphomet for real – turning Smite Evil’s on him now. Alderpash uses Telekinetic Charge to put the Paladin adjacent to Baphomet, and he full rounds the demon lord. Baphomet survives one full round attack.
At the top of the fourth round, Baphomet (at about 40% hit points) Full attacks the Paladin back, intending to kill him. Unfortunately for Baphomet, the Paladin still had a decent armor class and 50% fortification, which prevented a x3 critical. Baphomet only deals 60 damage per hit, connecting enough to nearly drop the Paladin (Paladin stays up with a Heroic Defiance). Two HEALS go off on the Paladin, the angel moves into position to attack, and the Paladin kills Baphomet in a second full-round smite attack.
With the fight over, the group is able to free Alderpash (and later comes back to FREEDOM the Fighter/Monk).
Heading off into the sunset with a Planetar, redeemed Herald, and soon-to-be-redeemed Runelord, the group readies for the final chapter.
Human Monk/Fighter/Ranger maneuver based. High AC, low damage, does trip, disarm and grapple shenanigans
Uggh. Maybe he has an angle on it, but that just sounds like a really bad idea. Unless you have a gimmick like Strength Surge, combat maneuvers just don't work as you rise in levels, except for a small number of common opponents.
Human Monk/Fighter/Ranger maneuver based. High AC, low damage, does trip, disarm and grapple shenanigans
Uggh. Maybe he has an angle on it, but that just sounds like a really bad idea. Unless you have a gimmick like Strength Surge, combat maneuvers just don't work as you rise in levels, except for a small number of common opponents.
This derails a bit from the main topic, but I wanted to address it so you can see how this works in (non-mythic) play:
I understand your opinion, and certainly Combat Maneuvers cannot be used against all opponents (just like Fireball or Smite Evil). A properly built character can really go nuts with it, if so motivated.
The important thing to remember is that a CMB check is an Attack Roll, and all effects that modify attack rolls (bonus or penalty) similarly effect CMB checks. Example: The spell Heroism provides a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls (which would include CMB checks). Similarly, effects that modify Armor Class also apply to CMD. Example: an Evil Eye hex against AC would also penalize CMD.
Relevant rules text:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects
When you look at monsters, the CMD is always higher than the AC. This is because AC is just Natural armor, minus size plus dexterity, vs. CMD is BAB, Strength, Dexterity and plus size . The important thing to take away isn’t that CMD is awesome, but that Armor Class is horrible!
Monster Commentary:
Looking at scary high level opponents (lets take the CR20 Balor as an example), the CMD looks very high relative to the AC. This is not because the CMD is very good, but rather because the AC is very bad.
The Balor has an AC of 36 and a CMD of 54. That Armor Class is laughable. When I modified my monsters, I had to increase the Balor’s Natural Armor, Strength, Dexterity, gave it Mage Armor, it ended up with an AC of 41 and a CMD of 57. I admit, not much better.
For a Mid-Tier example, lets look at the Mythic Vrock (CR11/MR4) early in Chapter 3. It has an AC of 27 and a CMD of 29. We can also look at a stock CR 13 Glabrezu. It has an AC of 28 and a CMD of 34 (and I technically cannot trip it unless I drink a potion of Enlarge Person).
I may have low-balled the attack benefits earlier, but the level 17 character is routinely +55 to Trip that Balor, but only +43 to hit him. Either way, almost an automatic hit (>90%).
The Level 11 character, going against that Mythic Vrock or Glabrezu is +28 to CMB, +24 to attack. So pretty good (>80%).
Level 17 Weapon Attacks and CMB:
If we compare weapon attacks to CMB, in most cases the CMB is marginally better.
In the case of my 17th level character (Maneuver Master Monk 4, Ranger 3, Lore Warden Fighter 10), here is the breakdown using Monk Unarmed Strike to attack:
+17 BAB
+10 Strength
+5 from caster level 20 Greater Magic Weapon (or Greater Magic Fang)
+4 from feats (Improved and Greater Maneuver)
+4 to CMB/CMD from the Lore Warden class feature (replaces Armor Training)
+4 from Fighter Weapon Training: Close (actually a +2, but improved by Gloves of Dueling)
+2 from Brawler’s armor (bonus to unarmed attacks)
+2 from Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus feats
+2 Morale bonus from Heroism (with two Pearl 2nd’s and a Rod of lesser extend, this is essentially always active)
+4 insight bonus from Bard’s Song (this is active always in combat from an ally)
+1 bonus from Haste (Boots of Speed or a spell)
Situational: +2 Favored enemy bonus (chaotic outsiders)
Situational: +2 to CMB vs. Demons (stolen fury campaign trait)
Situational: +1 luck bonus to hit from Prayer
Situational: -2 penalty to hit for Fighting Defensively (Crane Style)
Situational: -4 penalty to CMB (only –2 for damage attacks) from Full attacking with Flurry of Maneuvers and Two-Weapon Fighting.
Situational: Can spend a swift action to roll twice on a Maneuver and take the better result.
Total: +55 to CMB (+43 damage attacks); without the situational modifiers
Level 11 Weapon Attacks and CMB:
In the case of my 11th level character (Maneuver Master Monk 4, Ranger 3, Lore Warden Fighter 4), here is the breakdown:
+11 BAB
+6 Strength
+1 from Enhancement bonus (amulet of mighty fist +1)
+4 from feats (Improved and Greater Maneuver)
+2 to CMB/CMD from the Lore Warden class feature (replaces Armor Training)
+2 from Brawler’s armor (bonus to unarmed attacks)
+2 insight bonus from Bard’s Song (this is active always in combat from an ally)
Situational: +1 bonus from Haste
Situational: +2 Favored enemy bonus (chaotic outsiders)
Situational: +2 to CMB vs. Demons (stolen fury campaign trait)
Situational: +2 Morale bonus from either Heroism or Good Hope
Situational: -4 penalty to CMB (only –2 for damage attacks) from Full attacking with Flurry of Maneuvers and Two-Weapon Fighting.
Situational: Can spend a swift action to roll twice on a Maneuver and take the better result.
Total: +28 to CMB (+24 damage attacks). without the situational modifiers. At this level, many benefits are situational (instead of always on) and can have a much bigger positive effect on attacks and CMB checks.
Friendly Neighborhood Paladin:
And if you have a Level 11 Paladin in your party with Aura of Justice, and he lends you the ability to Smite Evil, that's just gravy on your attacks and CMB checks (adding in his Charisma modifier as well).
Interesting. Maybe my circle has given up on this approach too easily.
As it stands now the only time anyone tries one of these maneuvers is when the opponent is some sort of medium sized thing, which is usually a caster of some sort.
And in that situation, it doesn't matter whether you are built for it or not, the typical Lich or level 20 wizard just isn't going to win an opposed check with a true melee character, built for it or not. They might have another way to deal with it, but not by opposed checks.
It's pretty rare that we run into opponents who are "like us," ie another humanoid fighter for example. So in general nothing to sunder or disarm.
Well at the higher levels.
I have seen Barbarians pull off maneuvers on some impressive opponents though, but that was with Strength Surge. ("Mr. Titan, you are going DOWN!")
Thanks for the response, and sorry for the derail.
How did they get through Baphomet's regeneration? If it's not coming from a god or a mythic source (and the uncorrupted herald is not per the rules) he can be knocked out but not killed.
The DR as described in WotR#1 can be stopped by any one of three flavors:
Good and Epic
Good and Mythic
Deific source
Relevant Text:
Regeneration (Ex) Only epic and good damage, good and
mythic damage, or damage from a creature of equal or
greater power (such as an archdevil, deity, demon lord,
or protean lord) interrupts a demon lord’s regeneration.
The Mythic rules explains that any +6 (total ability) weapon qualifies as Mythic/Epic (Mythic and Epic are essentially the same thing). Both Radiance (Legendary +5 Holy Avenger) and Dawn's Kiss (Artifact +5 Holy, Flaming Burst) would qualify.
Plus at this point you could enchant a weapon up to that. The Monk/Fighter (who was IMPRISONED anyway) had a Bashing shield that had spikes enchanted to +1 Holy, Axiomatic, Ghost Touch (so barely +6).
Finally, as an Outsider - even a Demon Lord still needs to breathe. Once knocked out he could be choked to death. A rather ignoble way to kill someone, but I've had to resort to using it on Trolls many times when the alchemist fires ran out.
Actually, wizards who shoot fireballs can use it against everyone
Not sure if you're being serious or joking (and I don't want to seem condescending):
Fireball works unless the target(s) are immune to fire (Devils, Fire Elementals), immune to magic (golems, or just high SR), or have Evasion and a good save (lots of classed enemies, or a creature with a 25,000gp ring).
In addition, elemental damage (unless it is seriously augmented with Intensified, Empowered, Evoker damage bonus, etc.) can be reduced to zero with Resist Energy, Protection from Energy, and/or making the save.
Actually fireball gets a lot more mileage under mythic. Augment it and resistance and immunity get bypassed before any of the other crazy things they can do with their spells factor in.
Actually fireball gets a lot more mileage under mythic. Augment it and resistance and immunity get bypassed before any of the other crazy things they can do with their spells factor in.
Good point - a lot of the mythic spells defeat standard non-mythic defenses (plus I imagine it's easier to increase the damage such that Resistance is mostly a speedbump)
For the campaign I'm running, the PCs will be non-mythic though. The initial posts highlight how I'm handling mythic/non-mythic interactions, since the PCs are at a disadvantage in many cases.
Not sure if you're being serious or joking (and I don't want to seem condescending):
Fireball works unless the target(s) are immune to fire (Devils, Fire Elementals), immune to magic (golems, or just high SR), or have Evasion and a good save (lots of classed enemies, or a creature with a 25,000gp ring).
In addition, elemental damage (unless it is seriously augmented with Intensified, Empowered, Evoker damage bonus, etc.) can be reduced to zero with Resist Energy, Protection from Energy, and/or making the save.
If you are going to be shooting fireballs the opponent being immune to fire or even high sr is a relatively small issue. If you don't plan to shoot fireballs and you prep one, yeah it will be useless.
I'm going to be watching this thread closely. We're running through the AP right now and have just finished book 4 - its moving a little faster than our previous APs' but its been really great thus far. We, also, are running the campaign without mythic rules for a number of reasons. Instead, we are using some very basic home-brew epic rules:
1) The PC's level at the pre-determined points and also level at what would be Mythic tiers 1, 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 which means that at the AP's conclusion they will be 26th level. No more than 20 levels in any particular class can be taken, but it provides an actual opportunity to use one's capstone ability for once. The faster BAB progression, earlier access to higher level spells and accelerated feat accrual go a very long way towards keeping the characters at the appropriate power level and just as importably, in a much more predictable manner.
2) Because power curve is likely to drop off later in the game (think 20th level Wizard becomes a 20th level Wizard/1st level Fighter) and at a time when it needs to least, we added in this hombrew 'Epic' rule: At each level after the 20th, the character gains the ability to reroll any attack, combat maneuver, save, critical confirmation, skill check or ability check X times per day with a bonus of +X on the roll where X equals the number of levels past 20 they've reached. In other words, at 21st level a character can make 1 re-roll a day with a +1 bonus, at 22nd level a character can make 2 re-rolls a day with a +2 bonus and so on.
I'm planning on beginning a campaign journal soon, written in a narrative form from my notes, but I'm going to include GM comments and this topic in particular will be addressed often.
I thought about doing something like that - giving levels beyond 20th, but PF doesn't really model it well, and I wasn't sure (and didn't want to commit to it).
My simulation so far looks pretty fun and balanced with level 14-18 in Chapters 4&5. I do want the players to use their capstone level 20 powers Chapter 6, and intend for them to hit level 20 early in that book.
My player's class choices don't really have capstone powers though, so it's even less of an issue.
You guys will probably follow the same level path I am through book 4, but we'll diverge strongly in book 5.
I'm debating giving out Mythic Tier 1 at the very end just because. I intend to use the Wardstone fragments as permanent re-roll toys to mitigate some of the wonkiness.
The Heroes:
• Prudence Valoura Pureheart : Aasimar (f) priest of Torag. Touched by Divinity
• Zora Lightblade Human (f) archer, follower of Iomedae. Child of the Crusades
• Kurien Fenbourne : Half orc (m) Witch (follower of Shelyn). Riftwarden Orphan
• Kel : Human (f) Paladin of Sarenrae. Exposed to Awfulness
We did our first session this weekend, and they finished Chapter 1 Part 1&2 and are level 3 already.
The Paladin and Witch plan on single classing, but the "capstone" abilities for those are boring. The Paladin capstone is actually kind of bad, as the smite forces a banish (and ends the smite), but I'm letting that be an "if you want to" attempt.
The Cleric plans on being a Holy Vindicator, and the Monk plans on dipping into Rogue for Trapfinding. I don't think they'll miss out on capstone powers, but will definitely enjoy maxing out a prestige class and hitting the highest tier of spells.
The Heroes:
• Prudence Valoura Pureheart : Aasimar (f) priest of Torag. Touched by Divinity
• Zora Lightblade Human (f) archer, follower of Iomedae. Child of the Crusades
• Kurien Fenbourne : Half orc (m) Witch (follower of Shelyn). Riftwarden Orphan
• Kel : Human (f) Paladin of Sarenrae. Exposed to Awfulness
We did our first session this weekend, and they finished Chapter 1 Part 1&2 and are level 3 already.
The Paladin and Witch plan on single classing, but the "capstone" abilities for those are boring. The Paladin capstone is actually kind of bad, as the smite forces a banish (and ends the smite), but I'm letting that be an "if you want to" attempt.
The Cleric plans on being a Holy Vindicator, and the Monk plans on dipping into Rogue for Trapfinding. I don't think they'll miss out on capstone powers, but will definitely enjoy maxing out a prestige class and hitting the highest tier of spells.
We always pre-plan our character builds to give players something to work towards, though nothing is ever written in stone. With the understanding that they'll be reaching 26th level, the group is going to end up looking like this:
Khoresh Cimmeron, 20th level Paladin (Oath of Vengeance, Oath Against Fiends) / 6th level Oracle (Lame, Life): Paladin of Iomedae, offspring of a captive Aasimar woman and an Incubus intent on breeding his own cult. Slew his 'minders' and escaped, Growing up as an outcast hiding from the forces of good and evil alike. Started the campaign dedicated to his personal vendetta (that of finding his father and ridding the world of his and all other demonic presence) but stoic and mistrustful of others, needing to learn that the importance of the broader cause superseded that of his own.
Gregoravon al'Terendelev, 14th level Sorcerer (Draconic) / 8th level Dragon Disciple / 4th level Paladin (Sacred Shield) : one of several of Terendelev's progeny gathered together to serve as his personal attendants in Kenebres - there's a great backstory there involving a secret Augury which foretold one of his descendants would be the one to close the Worldwound if it could be done at all, and even that would not come to pass until after his (Terendelev's) death. It plays a key role in the dragon's sacrifice in the first book and ties the PC to Kenebres and the Crusade.
Lliam & Llira Valar, 20th level Bard (Dervish of Dawn) / 2nd level Fighter (Lore Warden) / 4th level Paladin (Holy Tactician): Twins from half a world away led to Kenebres by strange shared dreams. They learned in the last book (3) that they are in fact offspring of Sarenrae herself, her dual nature reflected in Lliam's swiftness to judgement and Llira's desire to see all who can be redeemed. The two balance one another - Lliam was slow to trust the Tiefling Khoresh while Llira was his greatest champion, and she is now uncertain how she feels about the growing closeness between he and the redeemed succubus in whom he finds a kindred spirit. The two make tremendous use of teamwork feats in their fighting styles.
The group is aided by an NPC, Lann the Mongrelman whom has been leveling as an Archeologist but at the regular rate since joining them in the first book and serving as liaison for the rest of his people. He's been with them off and on for about 2/3 the campaign so far. The redeemed succubus Arueshalae is a recent addition to the group as well.
All are effective in melee, all can cast to one degree or other, and all are capable of combat healing if needed. They've done well so far but I have real concerns coming up in books 5 and especially 6 - from the beginning I viewed Mythic as gross complication of the rules utterly unnecessary to tell this otherwise fantastic story, and now it looks like I'm going to have to do a fair bit of re-work to disentangle the major threats they will face from the Mythic ruleset. We'll see.
The Paladin and Witch plan on single classing, but the "capstone" abilities for those are boring. The Paladin capstone is actually kind of bad, as the smite forces a banish (and ends the smite), but I'm letting that be an "if you want to" attempt.
Don't underestimate the 'maxing out' of the Lay on Hands ability as part of the capstone. It can be a really big deal.
This is largely with I am doing with my group as well Grandpoobah, I am using something similar to your suggestions for how yo run the Mythic monsters though.
My group is a 25pt buy but as with all of my games Resurrection is turned off which adds an interesting element of caution that I very much like and adds impact to a characters death.
This is largely with I am doing with my group as well Grandpoobah, I am using something similar to your suggestions for how yo run the Mythic monsters though.
My group is a 25pt buy but as with all of my games Resurrection is turned off which adds an interesting element of caution that I very much like and adds impact to a characters death.
Interesting. I suspect the mortality rate (even at 25 point buy) to be high in Chapter 3 & 4 (that was my experience in playtesting it) IF if you choose to make the monsters tougher. As written, I doubt you'll see many deaths.
Do you have some kind of insurance policy against bad luck for your players (since they cannot raise/resurrect)? Also, the adventure gives out a couple of free True Resurrections, Raises, etc. - what would you replace those with (I would suggest Luckblades with the Wish/Rerolls in them).
Interesting. I suspect the mortality rate (even at 25 point buy) to be high in Chapter 3 & 4 (that was my experience in playtesting it) IF if you choose to make the monsters tougher. As written, I doubt you'll see many deaths.
Do you have some kind of insurance policy against bad luck for your players (since they cannot raise/resurrect)? Also, the adventure gives out a couple of free True Resurrections, Raises, etc. - what would you replace those with (I would suggest Luckblades with the Wish/Rerolls in them).
I do allow normal healing spells to act like breath of life (Just with that healing spells amount of healing dice) and Breath of Life works for up to one min afterwords.
I had not considered the free True Resurrections, I will have to give that some thought and I will take your suggestion into consideration. Thank you.
My home-game group finished Chapter 1 (it took a total of three 7-hour Sunday sessions).
At the end of Chapter 1, they were still 5th level - but acquired the Iomedae boons, the upgraded Campaign Traits, and modified wardstone fragments (they allow 1 reroll/day, see above).
I am debating whether or not to give out the extra stat bump recommended for non-mythic parties (I forgot to give it out at the end of the last session anyway).
The next session is an interim story I wrote that deals with the ruins of Kenabres and the Truestone Quarry. I'm going to have them fight a zombie/ghoul apocalypse at the mines (initiated by a dwarven cleric of Orcus - because this AP could use a little undead...)
We should get into Chapter 2, our first truly non-mythic bits, in June.
