Dynamic Potential (an abstract discussion on actual game play and maximisation)

[strayshift]

There is a 'dynamic' theory in chess that goes very roughly like this: "You can set up a position where you can only improve it (if you play well) but by the act of improving your position, you ultimately end up better than if you had played 'optimally' all along".

This is an argument about the 'classical' theories of chess versus 'hypermodern' or dynamic thought.

Now it occurs to me that some of the maximisation arguments whereby mathematical 'proof' of character maximisation is presented out of the context of actual game play are a bit like this (hence terms like 'Schrodinger's Wizard') - they define the game too narrowly or 'classically'.

And so I'd like to ask people, when have you played the game and 'discovered' a new facet or aspect of it that was new to you, the hidden potential if you like. It could be rules or even something personal, but something 'new' to you.

[Marthkus]

I was playing a rogue and discovered the concept of corners, and the ability of monsters to stand in them to reduce my character into an NPC.

The meta concept on the boards that a rogue can/should always flank turned out to be completely wrong.

[Ascalaphus]

Just how well a ride-by attack ranger interacts with buff spells being cast while you're constantly not in range to benefit.

[ArmouredMonk13]

Unarmed Strikes actually can be better than weapons in gameplay [from my personal experience] since it means you can never be caught unarmed and comes with some unexpected versatility that can save parties.

Playing a buffer+debuffer means that you can reduce combats really really quickly from "This is the Really Really Big Bad Boss Fight of S#!$ Pants and Run!" to "Lets Watch 20th Level PCs Fight a Lemure!"

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Taking 10 and Taking 20 is most valuable to Rogues, because it lets them do their job consistently and well. GMs who don't allow rogues to Take 10 and Take 20 are crippling the Rogue.

[Ascalaphus]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Taking 10 and Taking 20 is most valuable to Rogues, because it lets them do their job consistently and well. GMs who don't allow rogues to Take 10 and Take 20 are crippling the Rogue.

Also: take 10 on the check to create magic items. Perfectly legal and sensible, but it irks many GMs.

[Tholomyes]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Taking 10 and Taking 20 is most valuable to Rogues, because it lets them do their job consistently and well. GMs who don't allow rogues to Take 10 and Take 20 are crippling the Rogue.

Yeah, were I to make any rule regarding limiting or removing Take 10/20, it would probably be that only rogues get to do it. It wouldn't fix the rogue by any stretch of the imagination, but it would at least give them a mechanical reason that a skill monkey would still want to be a rogue.

[Slagmoth]

I guess I am a bit old school, min/maxing is discouraged in my games, as the story should trump all mechanical things. The mechanics are a framework but when you spend so much time maxing out this and minimizing that, you miss out on the intrigue and story lines going on.

The DCs for some of the skills allowed to rogues are entirely too low in some circumstances especially UMD to the point that by 10th level there really is no chance of failure on almost anything even if they don't take a 10 which they cannot always do. Rogues tend to save the party a lot in my games simply because they are hard to kill unless they do something totally stupid at mid to upper levels.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Slagmoth wrote:

The mechanics are a framework but when you spend so much time maxing out this and minimizing that, you miss out on the intrigue and story lines going on.

How? In my experience, by optimizing my character, I actually don't miss out on the story, because my character doesn't die in the first encounter and I can play.

My realization was that immunity to damage doesn't really make you unbeatable.

[FanaticRat]

Having 9 AoOs in a 15 foot range is actually pretty useless because enemies rarely if ever provoke and concentration checks to cast defensively are super easy.

Also, never dump wis even if will is your good save and the guide recommends you do it.

[Thomas Long 175]

Slagmoth wrote:

I guess I am a bit old school, min/maxing is discouraged in my games, as the story should trump all mechanical things. The mechanics are a framework but when you spend so much time maxing out this and minimizing that, you miss out on the intrigue and story lines going on.

The DCs for some of the skills allowed to rogues are entirely too low in some circumstances especially UMD to the point that by 10th level there really is no chance of failure on almost anything even if they don't take a 10 which they cannot always do. Rogues tend to save the party a lot in my games simply because they are hard to kill unless they do something totally stupid at mid to upper levels.

.... I just don't even know what to say to this... If you don't know how to kill a rogue, with ease even, with a CR appropriate encounter at mid to high levels I think you're easily running on the very very low end spectrum of system mastery.