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@aboniks: The surprise round rules actually address this to an extent.
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
And actually, now that I re-read it, I have to withdraw something I mentioned earlier: The surprise round rules are suited to the whole 'bar brawl' scenario. I tend to think of them in terms of ambushes, but it's really any scene where there could be an attack and at least one person involved could be unaware of it.
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I think it's important for everyone to remember a few things here:
A) Nobody here is arguing that people shouldn't be flat-footed during surprise rounds, just the first round of normal combat that both sides recognize and prepared for, especially for the side that takes the action that starts the battle.
B) This isn't a debate about who wins initiative. People keep tossing out the Old West quickdraw example, which isn't the point of this topic. The problem isn't that one side beats another, even the victim beating his attacker when he's attacked. The problem is the attacker suffering flat-footedness as though he wasn't ready for the battle he decided to start.
My only advice to you is to warn your players of the rule beforehand so they're aware of it during character creation as it affects a lot of class features.
Any class feature it affects is still viable, just in different scenarios.
x. Magus archetype Kensai, gets bonus damage only when enemies are flat footed (which is very rare other than at beginning of combat).
This is essentially the same situation the rogue is in. You can't just get free hits because you rolled initiative.
You have to plan things out to earn that absolutely staggering advantage of being able to start a battle with a free hit against someone's penalized AC with a huge pile of extra d6s worth of damage.
If a rogue wants to sneak attack, he has to setup an ambush with stealth or disguise, then beat his target's perception or sense motive check.
Your kensai example is invalid: Kensai only do bonus damage to flat-footed opponents during surprise rounds. As stated above, nobody has a problem with targets being flat-footed during surprise rounds.
It also lowers the usefulness of the class feature to never get caught flat footed.
Yes, it's lowered somewhat, but still quite valuable. Uncanny dodge is still a great ability for avoiding surprise round sneak attacks and as a prerequisite for improved uncanny dodge.
And gimps sneak attackers into having to trick/sneak their first sneak attack in.
Yeah, and you might just find that it works out better for everyone. It makes them actually have to put some thought into how they approach each fight. Isn't that kind of the point? Rogues (and other sneak attackers) are the clever combatants. They shouldn't be able to rely on always having massive damage at their fingertips. They should have to earn that damage with foresight, cunning, and positioning.
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You're still weakening the rogue, because where before he could get a sneak attack anytime he wins initiative, now he has to know that combat is going to happen and make efforts to set himself up for a sneak attack ahead of time. Depending on the nature of the campaign and its conflicts, this could range from mildly annoying to severely debilitating.
Or, you know, flank an enemy.
Why do people seem to think getting sneak attack bonus damage is difficult or only happens once or twice a battle, if at all?
Use your 5 foot step effectively every round, even if it's after your attack.
Put some ranks into acrobatics, maybe even skill focus.
Don't skip mobility because its benefit seems too situational.
Combat expertise might be underwhelming, but improved feint is worth the price of two feats!
When the group is about to get into a fight, use stealth to earn yourself a surprise round.
Those minor and major magic rogue talents seem kind of lame until you realize that vanish is a 1st level spell.
I think it's important for everyone to remember a few things here:
A) Nobody here is arguing that people shouldn't be flat-footed during surprise rounds, just the first round of normal combat that both sides recognize and prepared for, especially for the side that takes the action that starts the battle.
You are still operating under the mistaken impression that combat (and init rolls) don't start until someone actually makes an attack. This simply isn't the case. Combat/init starts as soon as either side expects combat to be occurring.
For example, if the soldiers standing atop a city wall see a dragon 1000' away, that is when combat/init starts. It doesn't start when the dragon lands next to the wall and eats the first guard off the wall (who is flat-footed under your mistaken presumption). The correct way to handle that scenario is half a dozen rounds of combat where the dragon simply flies closer each round, and the guards panick, ready actions, whatever - but all of them have taken actions and are NOT flat footed anymore.
In your own words "just the first round of normal combat that both sides recognize and prepared for". That first round is part of the preparing portion of the fight.
The case where people are flat footed is when the first round of combat starts. All combatants are now aware there is a fight, but none of them have prepared for it. Drawing your weapon on that first round is part of preparing for it. Or casting that defensive spell. etc. Anyone who wasn't as quick as you still isn't prepared for it. In the real-time world (not the turn based system), maybe they've started reaching for their blade, or spell components, or whatever, but they aren't yet fully prepared for a fight.
In my game, and in the rules as i read them, initiative is rolled when someone takes a combat action, be it getting in defensive stance, casting a Spell, or swinging a sword when this action is declared we Roll initiative and the one that get it first get to react first to the declared action.
Eksempel 1 johnny is standing face to face talking and the conversation is not going well so. Johnny swings at Melvin but Melvin gets the initiative and hit Johnny the fraction of a second where he think he is surprising Melvin. Most folks that have been in a figth will reconsidered this scenario as realistisc. Johnny is flat footet and it hurts.
Had we allowed Melvin and Johnny to Roll initiative as soon as we undestood what way it was going. Then the most aggressive of them would have grotten the first punch or we would have the endelss ready action the OP is talking about. At the same time we would have ruined a fine place for exitment because the initiative Roll would have become pointless. And we would have made Melvins sneek attack class feature pointless.
Remember folks are reacting at almost the same time and being hit at the exact moment where you think you start somthing is a very common moment to lose a figth.
I don't disagree with bbangerter's assertion that a battle can begin much sooner than we might assume. If people are prepared for battle, and are expecting a battle, it makes a case for not denying them their AC when it all goes down.
I think the real art of it is going to be the GM knowing when to have everyone roll for initiative.
I've read over Surprise, Initiative, Bluff and Sense Motive. I'm not seeing anything that says we COULDN'T use Bluff to gain a surprise round, after all there are those cinematic situations where some people (like in a hostile bar) are hiding behind the decorum of a public setting; challenging the protagonist to lose his cool or whatever. Sidling up to someone and sucker punching them is too good of a maneuver to chock it all up to Initiative.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
Han vs. Greedo: (if we rightly assume Han shot first)
- Han uses Bluff to distract Greedo- Greedo fails his Sense Motive
- Han gets a surprise round and shoots Greedo under the table. Greedo is flat-footed.
Han vs. Greedo: (the digital remake)
- Han uses Bluff to distract Greedo
- Greedo makes his Sense Motive and knows Han is making a move
- They roll initiative
- Greedo wins, and fires, missing
- Han shoots Greedo under the table. Greedo is not flat footed.
I think the real art of it is going to be the GM knowing when to have everyone roll for initiative.
As an example: If one of the players tells me that his character is loosening his sword or tightening his grip on his shield - i.e., that he's actively prepared to defend himself - I might call for initiative. It may wind up that there's no actual combat - maybe the party's face calms the situation down, or maybe the potential enemy teleports away - but oh well.
The apparent perception of a trained warrior who is ready to actively defend himself at the drop of a hat every waking second of the day just isn't accurate. Sure, an adventurer is much faster at readying himself to face an attacker than the average joe. But quickly readying yourself to face an attack and walking around constantly ready to fend off an attack are two very different; the latter would probably cause major social penalties as people avoid "that guy who looks like he's always about to snap."
When you are surprised, you aren't even aware of the attack until it happens. When you are flat-footed but not surprised, you haven't had the chance to do anything but think the words "Oh s+!*."
To get back to Thomas Gock's question, I believe that flat footedness occurs because one's opponent was either distracted by your intent (Bluff: Feint vs. Sense Motive) or distracted by what he was already doing (Stealth vs. Perception)...OR...losing the initiative roll simply reflects the fact they were caught off-balance, their weapons weren't out of their sheathes, their eyes were looking at someone else in the group and weren't looking at the rogue coming at them, etc.
As Xaratherus pointed out, an adventurer who walks around ready for combat all the time is going to be labeled a psycho...BUT these people DO exist. They are suspicious, jumpy, reactionary people.
In my game, and in the rules as i read them, initiative is rolled when someone takes a combat action, be it getting in defensive stance, casting a Spell, or swinging a sword when this action is declared we Roll initiative and the one that get it first get to react first to the declared action.
Cap. I think this is the crux of the issue you have with the rule. It seems as though you are simply rolling initiative too late. There should be liberal sprinklings of other instances that call for an initiative besides just an action you describe as a 'combat action'. If I played a game in which initiative was only rolled when a 'combat action' was taken I might share your opinion.
I know we are all supposed to ignore the case of a surprise round because no one is arguing whether or not a player should be flat footed. However, it directly relates to the issue because anyone who acts in the surprise round is not flat footed in the first official round of combat.
I will reiterate my argument from a previous post:
The condition allowing a surprise round includes opponents you can see but do not necessarily recognize as an opponent. So, just because NPC sees PC, does not necessarily mean NPC knows that combat is coming. This might allow a surprise round.
I would try having initiative start far sooner than the first 'combat action' and include more surprise rounds in the games you play in.
(Don't think I'm saying this is a perfect solution. I'm just saying it might be the difference between hating a rule and tolerating it.)
To get back to Thomas Gock's question, I believe that flat footedness occurs because one's opponent was either distracted by your intent (Bluff: Feint vs. Sense Motive) or distracted by what he was already doing (Stealth vs. Perception)...OR...losing the initiative roll simply reflects the fact they were caught off-balance, their weapons weren't out of their sheathes, their eyes were looking at someone else in the group and weren't looking at the rogue coming at them, etc.
As Xaratherus pointed out, an adventurer who walks around ready for combat all the time is going to be labeled a psycho...BUT these people DO exist. They are suspicious, jumpy, reactionary people.
And they probably have the improved initiative, Alertness and Skill Focus-Perception feats, maxed out perception and sense motive skills, and the Reactionary and suspicious traits to enable being so suspicious, jumpy and reactionary.
The question wasn't about whether you'd beat his roll. Obviously none of us would beat his roll. And I also understand that the rules say he's flat footed. My point is to argue that the rule is not accurate. I play it that way anyway cuz I play by the book, but its not accurate. But back to my argument, how can you assume everyone who gets the first swing also hits that person easier because they were distracted for some reason? That's obviously not always the case.
Also, you are misunderstanding how surprise rounds work. I just read it again and I am correct. There is not always a surprise round, so that can not he the reason that causes flat footed at the beginingg of combat. I'm reading the hardcopy and don't want to type it all out but if you care to look its on page 178 of the CRB.
Paraphrased when combat is decided upon roll initiative. Then decide who was aware of the hostile circumstance, they get to act in a surprise round in order of initiative. After surprise round is over, follow initiative including everyone.
That means that multiple creatures can simultaneously he aware of the combat first, while others are not. The rules state that anyone who hasn't acted yet is flat footed, like a domino effect. I'm arguing that group a that gets to act on the surprise round should never be flat footed in the combat while group b is only flat footed during the surprise round
Bruce had Uncanny Dodge yo!
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In my game, and in the rules as i read them, initiative is rolled when someone takes a combat action, be it getting in defensive stance, casting a Spell, or swinging a sword when this action is declared we Roll initiative and the one that get it first get to react first to the declared action.Cap. I think this is the crux of the issue you have with the rule. It seems as though you are simply rolling initiative too late. There should be liberal sprinklings of other instances that call for an initiative besides just an action you describe as a 'combat action'. If I played a game in which initiative was only rolled when a 'combat action' was taken I might share your opinion.
In what situation besides combat do you have fractions of seconds matter?
The game rules only have rules for initiative in combat.Can you give me some exampels on out of combat use of initiative?
Being flatfooted during the first regular round is fine. The rules for initiative, surprise rounds, flatfooted... they're all fine. If you think things aren't quite right, your GM is likely starting combat oddly. Either too late, or ignoring the awareness clause.
The first step to combat is someone having the intent to attack.
The second step is to determine who is aware of this. Sometimes that is easy, sometimes a little bit trickier.
The orcs rushing at your party from across the plains? Yeah, combat incoming. Initiative starts immediately. There will be multiple rounds that go by before they even get there. no one is flatfooted when swords start to clash.
The assassin disguised as a friendly merchant walking up with some goods? Probably unaware. Start surprise round immediately as the assassin attacks.
Two fighters square off to duel in the ring? Combat has already started before the bell is rung. Initiative and get down to business. Nobody is flatfooted here.
It is all about when you start the combat. You roll initiative when either an offensive action is made, or when people are aware that combat is happening soon. You are basically just flatfooted for the round in which it dawns on you that there is a combat happening. If you already know, then you're not flatfooted.
Now... If you are the one initiating hostility?
If your opponents are not aware that you are about to attack. There is no way you can be flatfooted! Your action to attack is what is causing combat... But if they notice that you are about to attack? They might be able to get the jump on you, and you could end up flatfooted.
Notice the determining factor? Awareness.
If you are skipping that step, then you're doing it wrong. And that is why the system feels off to you. "Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks." Always determine awareness. This will solve all of your problems with initiating combat.
In my game, and in the rules as i read them, initiative is rolled when someone takes a combat action, be it getting in defensive stance, casting a Spell, or swinging a sword when this action is declared we Roll initiative and the one that get it first get to react first to the declared action.Cap. I think this is the crux of the issue you have with the rule. It seems as though you are simply rolling initiative too late. There should be liberal sprinklings of other instances that call for an initiative besides just an action you describe as a 'combat action'. If I played a game in which initiative was only rolled when a 'combat action' was taken I might share your opinion.
In what situation besides combat do you have fractions of seconds matter?
The game rules only have rules for initiative in combat.
Can you give me some exampels on out of combat use of initiative?
They should only be able to react first if they were aware of the first combat action was coming. It is hard to react before the bad guy stabs you if him stabbing you was what caused you to become aware of combat.
How you determine awareness depends entirely on the situation. Armed thugs trying to ambush you? Perception vs Stealth.
Rogue passing himself off as a random dude to get close enough to shank a guy? Bluff vs Sense Motive.
Etc.
But always determine awareness. And the action of attack should not itself be the trigger for being able to react to the attack before the attack.
But what BoH is saying is that combat starts when opposing parties become aware of combat. That is when initiative is checked. That is when combat starts. Even if neither party actually starts swings swords and casting spells until a round or three later.
Think of your standard old west style gunfight where the first person to go for their gun isn't necessarily the first person to shoot.If you start a fight and lose initiative, it means the other guy saw what you were doing and reacted so quickly you weren't ready for it.
The problem with the initiative system is that it is not only about drawing faster. I see trying to draw first but ending up a little late. But with the system as is a gunslinger can stand there, try to draw and shoot and while he is at it the other guy, standing 30ft away draws his knife, walks over to the gunslinger and stabs him in the guts before he even finishes drawing the gun.
Too much for the slight difference in reaction speed.But it is as it is and most of the time it works, more or less.
Think of your standard old west style gunfight where the first person to go for their gun isn't necessarily the first person to shoot.If you start a fight and lose initiative, it means the other guy saw what you were doing and reacted so quickly you weren't ready for it.
The problem with the initiative system is that it is not only about drawing faster. I see trying to draw first but ending up a little late. But with the system as is a gunslinger can stand there, try to draw and shoot and while he is at it the other guy, standing 30ft away draws his knife, walks over to the gunslinger and stabs him in the guts before he even finishes drawing the gun.
Too much for the slight difference in reaction speed.But it is as it is and most of the time it works, more or less.
Well, if he has quick draw, and the guy he intends to shoot isn't none the wiser... he'd be the only guy acting on the surprise round.
Side note: people don't really 'walk' in combat.
But ryric is wrong on one thing... going for your gun doesn't automatically mean the other guy notices. That is why you check for awareness. He doesn't even get to act if he is surprised.
In what situation besides combat do you have fractions of seconds matter?
The game rules only have rules for initiative in combat.
Can you give me some exampels on out of combat use of initiative?
Remy Balster nailed it and reemphasized my point. The 'experienced combatant who should always be aware of potential combat' example that you gave earlier should be reflected in his awareness skills (i.e. Ranks in perception, bluff, sense motive etc. which indeed DO get better with skill). If your games always fail to integrate these in pre combat situations, then I understand your anger.
Again, a possible way to fix the initiative system you hate in your game is to allow for these skills to affect who is aware of a potential combat.
I dont undstand what hate or anger you talk about. I like the rules like we read them. I just asked for eksamples of times where you find that Rolling initiative before thongsouk get really hostile is a good idea.
I dont undstand what hate or anger you talk about. I like the rules like we read them. I just asked for eksamples of times where you find that Rolling initiative before thongsouk get really hostile is a good idea.
thongsouk was supposed to be Things.
When multiple people are all trying to do stuff at the same time.
This could be directly before combat… or…
Chase scenes! Seriously, you almost have to… it is just awesome this way.
There are other times too, maybe you have the bard chatting a dude up and the rogue sneaking around his cart to steal some stuff while the guards are about to come around the corner patrolling. The wizard is in the middle of negotiating with a haggler and his 7 Cha is pissing the guy off and he is about to erupt… all the while the fighter is lost down the street and trying to find his allies. And you use initiative and rounds to make sure to keep track of everything happening all at once. Because things might be about to get very…very interesting. But… they might not.
Initiative and rounds makes a good system for keeping track of numerous people all trying to do stuff at more or less the same time.
I dont undstand what hate or anger you talk about.
I am talking about you adamantly opposing the "a character is flat footed until s/he acts in combat" rule and claiming that it doesn't make sense.
I like the rules like we read them.
o.O
Now I'm confused.
I dont undstand what hate or anger you talk about.I am talking about you adamantly opposing the "a character is flat footed until s/he acts in combat" rule and claiming that it doesn't make sense.
I like the rules like we read them.o.O
Now I'm confused.
I think jimmibone83 using the same little tiny picture as me May be the root of your confusion?
I think jimmibone83 using the same little tiny picture as me May be the root of your confusion?
Well it sure didn't help.
Lol
I Can see the need to track things round by round. But none of the examples i read here have the need to reflect fraction of a second stuff that the initiative rules try to emulate. Only the combat rules talk about initiative. Using initiative before combat starts rewards aggressive character and hurt sneek attackers and folks that invest in better initiative.
I Can see the need to track things round by round. But none of the examples i read here have the need to reflect fraction of a second stuff that the initiative rules try to emulate. Only the combat rules talk about initiative. Using initiative before combat starts rewards aggressive character and hurt sneek attackers and folks that invest in better initiative.Items 3, 5, & , from my post above are explicitly "fraction of a second" timing.
Also, initiative is as much about precise (6 second interval) time keeping as it is "fraction of a second stuff". See my other examples for the situations where what you can do in the time you have (how many rounds, and in what order) matters. If timing matters, or a time limit of a minute or less exists, then initiative is theproper tool to use.
3 is only initiative stuff if the fighter want to use force to stop the rogue.
If initiative is important in a race then i am not sure how you run them. In my game i Think it would be skill based in most cases.And why is initiative important if you have out combat round based stuff?
Edit for spelling
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Think of the problem that will be created if the first person to shout "I attack" gets a surprise round and everyone else has to wait for regular round 1: Everyone at your table will always try to go first by being the first to shout out their attack and you will never be able to play out role-play situations.
I Can see the need to track things round by round. But none of the examples i read here have the need to reflect fraction of a second stuff that the initiative rules try to emulate. Only the combat rules talk about initiative. Using initiative before combat starts rewards aggressive character and hurt sneek attackers and folks that invest in better initiative.
People with higher initiative still have an advantage no matter how many rounds pass. They are always up a round of action, so to speak, or the the very least even at the completion of each round.
And by sneak attackers, do you mean stealthy ambush types or like... people with Sneak Attack ability? The Sneak Attack ability is only really useful against people who you can catch off guard somehow.
Two fighters squared off to duke it out? Uh... how is sneak attack going to come into play here? It wouldn't make any sense. Unless one of the combatants is a dirty fighter or distracts the other... then he could get in a sneak attack. But on the opening round? Just cuz? Doesn't make sense.
How does rolling for initiative and beginning the round sequence right before the blades start clashing help aggressive characters? And.. is that even a bad thing if it does?
Think of the problem that will be created if the first person to shout "I attack" gets a surprise round and everyone else has to wait for regular round 1: Everyone at your table will always try to go first by being the first to shout out their attack and you will never be able to play out role-play situations.
I dont know who you you are adressing. But no one here is saying that you should get surprise round for simply saying i attack.
At least i dont see that claim any where. The surprise round is not the thing here, at least not for me.To have folks standing sort of ready and then when someone pull out his gun/ axe/ spell and everybody try to go first. And the one that is first have a big advantage if he can make it count. That is the issue. I, and others, like it. And other others think the flatfootetness of the ones that are just a fraction slower in the first round is too big a headstart, for the high initiative.
Think of the problem that will be created if the first person to shout "I attack" gets a surprise round and everyone else has to wait for regular round 1: Everyone at your table will always try to go first by being the first to shout out their attack and you will never be able to play out role-play situations.I dont know who you you are adressing. But no one here is saying that you should get surprise round for simply saying i attack.
At least i dont see that claim any where. The surprise round is not the thing here, at least not for me.
To have folks standing sort of ready and then when someone pull out his gun/ axe/ spell and everybody try to go first. And the one that is first have a big advantage if he can make it count. That is the issue. I, and others, like it. And other others think the flatfootetness of the ones that are just a fraction slower in the first round is too big a headstart, for the high initiative.
What justification is there for people to be flatfooted when they in fact are aware of an impending attack and are physically capable of reacting?
Random aside; Does an immediate action qualify as "act"? I ask because if so, Featherfall would remove the start of combat flat footed condition. So would a number of other abilities that are immediate actions.
Random speculation.
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You can't take immediate actions while you are flat footed.
What justification is there for people to be flatfooted when they in fact are aware of an impending attack and are physically capable of reacting?Think of the problem that will be created if the first person to shout "I attack" gets a surprise round and everyone else has to wait for regular round 1: Everyone at your table will always try to go first by being the first to shout out their attack and you will never be able to play out role-play situations.I dont know who you you are adressing. But no one here is saying that you should get surprise round for simply saying i attack.
At least i dont see that claim any where. The surprise round is not the thing here, at least not for me.
To have folks standing sort of ready and then when someone pull out his gun/ axe/ spell and everybody try to go first. And the one that is first have a big advantage if he can make it count. That is the issue. I, and others, like it. And other others think the flatfootetness of the ones that are just a fraction slower in the first round is too big a headstart, for the high initiative.
Al the stuff that the rules try to put in to the start of a figth; the turning of the head, the blink of an eye, a crying child in the crowd, a Chill Down the back or the other one just being faster than expectet.
Try playing that slap the other guy over the fingers game with some one and see if you can always react in time even if you know he is gonna hit you.
You can't take immediate actions while you are flat footed.
Haha, true, forgot about that.
So...
A fighter and a wizard are involved in an argument and it starts to get heated. They shout at one another for a short time, tempers escalating the whole time, and then Combat starts with the fighter knocking the wizard off the cliff. He is flatfooted, so falls to his death.
Should it have gone down like that? What about that situation would have left the wizard unable to react in any way?
A wizard is walking along a cliff and accidentally stumbles and fall off, casts feather fall and floats down safely.
If anything the wizard in this example has less ability to react in time, but has absolutely zero problem casting his featherfall. Why?
A fighter and a wizard are involved in an argument and it starts to get heated. Combat starts because they're both about to freak out. A couple rounds of shouting go by, and then the fighter knocks the wizard off the cliff. He casts feathfall and floats down safely.
This seems like a slightly more appropriate example of how combat should begin, you ease into it, since both parties are very aware and capable of acting.
What justification is there for people to be flatfooted when they in fact are aware of an impending attack and are physically capable of reacting?Think of the problem that will be created if the first person to shout "I attack" gets a surprise round and everyone else has to wait for regular round 1: Everyone at your table will always try to go first by being the first to shout out their attack and you will never be able to play out role-play situations.I dont know who you you are adressing. But no one here is saying that you should get surprise round for simply saying i attack.
At least i dont see that claim any where. The surprise round is not the thing here, at least not for me.
To have folks standing sort of ready and then when someone pull out his gun/ axe/ spell and everybody try to go first. And the one that is first have a big advantage if he can make it count. That is the issue. I, and others, like it. And other others think the flatfootetness of the ones that are just a fraction slower in the first round is too big a headstart, for the high initiative.Al the stuff that the rules try to put in to the start of a figth; the turning of the head, the blink of an eye, a crying child in the crowd, a Chill Down the back or the other one just being faster than expectet.
Try playing that slap the other guy over the fingers game with some one and see if you can always react in time even if you know he is gonna hit you.
Being flatfooted means NO DEX. That is the equivalent of being UNABLE to move your hands whatsoever because either you cannot, or you are unaware of the slap coming.
You are clearly aware it is coming if you are playing this game, and likely physically capable of moving too. Just because they are faster, doesn't mean you were flatfooted.
I maintain that flat-footed is a consequence of 'becoming aware of the combat'. It is the intervening time frame from making your whatever check to notice danger, and your first round to react.
If you are and have been aware of danger for a while, this step should already be over. Ie combat should have started a few rounds of time earlier.
You can't take immediate actions while you are flat footed.
Haha, true, forgot about that.
So...
A fighter and a wizard are involved in an argument and it starts to get heated. They shout at one another for a short time, tempers escalating the whole time, and then Combat starts with the fighter knocking the wizard off the cliff. He is flatfooted, so falls to his death.
Should it have gone down like that? What about that situation would have left the wizard unable to react in any way?
A wizard is walking along a cliff and accidentally stumbles and fall off, casts feather fall and floats down safely.
If anything the wizard in this example has less ability to react in time, but has absolutely zero problem casting his featherfall. Why?
A fighter and a wizard are involved in an argument and it starts to get heated. Combat starts because they're both about to freak out. A couple rounds of shouting go by, and then the fighter knocks the wizard off the cliff. He casts feathfall and floats down safely.
This seems like a slightly more appropriate example of how combat should begin, you ease into it, since both parties are very aware and capable of acting.
Falling to ones death usually take some time. He will get his turn before he hits the ground i think.
What justification is there for people to be flatfooted when they in fact are aware of an impending attack and are physically capable of reacting?Think of the problem that will be created if the first person to shout "I attack" gets a surprise round and everyone else has to wait for regular round 1: Everyone at your table will always try to go first by being the first to shout out their attack and you will never be able to play out role-play situations.I dont know who you you are adressing. But no one here is saying that you should get surprise round for simply saying i attack.
At least i dont see that claim any where. The surprise round is not the thing here, at least not for me.
To have folks standing sort of ready and then when someone pull out his gun/ axe/ spell and everybody try to go first. And the one that is first have a big advantage if he can make it count. That is the issue. I, and others, like it. And other others think the flatfootetness of the ones that are just a fraction slower in the first round is too big a headstart, for the high initiative.Al the stuff that the rules try to put in to the start of a figth; the turning of the head, the blink of an eye, a crying child in the crowd, a Chill Down the back or the other one just being faster than expectet.
Try playing that slap the other guy over the fingers game with some one and see if you can always react in time even if you know he is gonna hit you.Being flatfooted means NO DEX. That is the equivalent of being UNABLE to move your hands whatsoever because either you cannot, or you are unaware of the slap coming.
You are clearly aware it is coming if you are playing this game, and likely physically capable of moving too. Just because they are faster, doesn't mean you were flatfooted.
I maintain that flat-footed is a consequence of 'becoming aware of the combat'. It is the intervening time frame from...
no matter what you maintain it is still possible to start the combat and still lose initiative and there by being flattfootet in part of the first round.
If this is the rules we argue that have been established a long time ago. You can focused make house rules but i think you will damage suspense, and hurt the folks with high initiative and/or sneek attack.
no matter what you maintain it is still possible to start the combat and still lose initiative and there by being flattfootet in part of the first round.
If this is the rules we argue that have been established a long time ago. You can focused make house rules but i think you will damage suspense, and hurt the folks with high initiative and/or sneek attack.
Lol... I don't have to houserule anything. Just start combat when both sides are aware of it, and... everything works perfectly.
When both sides are aware...
Now, if some of the combatants are caught off guard? An ambush? Unexpected encounter coming around a corner? Sure, combat starts and things get messy fast.
But not every combat should be run that way, especially the battles where both sides are fully aware before hand.
Falling to ones death usually take some time. He will get his turn before he hits the ground i think.
Yeah, it takes time. It doesn't take much though. You fall 500 ft in the first round of a freefall. That is enough to kill people. And he'd not get his turn.
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PShhhh.... In YOUR reality maybe.
In my cinematic reality, that's PLENTY of time to strap on a parachute mid fall, have 3 rounds of combat AND diffuse a bomb ;)
Falling to ones death usually take some time. He will get his turn before he hits the ground i think.Yeah, it takes time. It doesn't take much though. You fall 500 ft in the first round of a freefall. That is enough to kill people. And he'd not get his turn.
Last try. Remy the round based combat system is supposed to simulate the combatants acting at the same time not one having a 6 second turn wile all the others wait. So why wouldent he get to Act?
This subject have been debatet several times, do a search if you need better arguments than the ones i make here. But the bottom line is that you serverly screw some classes and options over, as well as weakening the storytelling elements of the game, with your Collectible card game way og running initiative.
And you are of cause free to run your game any way you feel like.
Think of the problem that will be created if the first person to shout "I attack" gets a surprise round and everyone else has to wait for regular round 1: Everyone at your table will always try to go first by being the first to shout out their attack and you will never be able to play out role-play situations.I dont know who you you are adressing. But no one here is saying that you should get surprise round for simply saying i attack.
I've seen this happen in play and I had a pc die because of it.
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I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH THE OP
the problem with this rule.... And every debate about it is the assumption of the norm.
People who support the rule will almost always speak of some kind of suprise or super human feat like Bruce Lee's counter punch.
People opposed to the rule will almost alwayse point out that most combat actually starts with the combatants aware of each other and prepared for hostility.
I am in the latter group.
i think its silly when person A and person B are standing 50 feet apart swords in hand cursing each other's lineage. And At some point they take actual hostile action and initiatives are rolled. By RAW the winner of the roll charges 50 feet screaming bloody murder and waving his sword.... While the other remains completely unprepared untill his head takes the action to roll across the floor.
I understand that some combat begins as a suprise... But most combat does not and most peoples instinctive reactions will provide some form of defense.
I think that rather than assuming that people walking around heavily armed and armored are generally cought unawares by the outbreak of hostilities. The rules should assume that people are generally prepared for combat and provide options for those less common times such as an ambush, sucker punch or being distracted by a particularly shinny mote of dust right when the enemy charges from 50 feet away.
I house rule that the flat footed in the first round rule only applies urging suprise situations. I also allow sneak attack classes to take advantage of the rule so as not to take anything from them
i think its silly when person A and person B are standing 50 feet apart swords in hand cursing each other's lineage. And At some point they take actual hostile action and initiatives are rolled.
You are confusing hostile actions with violent actions. When they first see each other, before they've started shouting, when someone first gets the inclination to grab for a sword, or call someone out, honestly, in a lot of realistic in-game situations, when they first so much as see each other, that is when you're supposed to be rolling initiative.
I diagramed out pretty much every possible permutation of this at the bottom of the previous page for situations that aren't kill on sight.