If I see a fight coming and put up my dukes then I am not flat footed, regardless of whether or jot the other guy gets the first punch or not
In this scenario, combat has already started though with you putting up your dukes - even though no one has made any attacks yet. So even if the other guy does get the first punch, you are not flat footed in this case.
If he attacks you the same round you are putting up your dukes, and he beat your init roll, that simply means you didn't see the fight coming quite quick enough.
As for missing my edit, I think you posted before I was done with my edit - no worries on that.
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The question wasn't about whether you'd beat his roll. Obviously none of us would beat his roll. And I also understand that the rules say he's flat footed. My point is to argue that the rule is not accurate. I play it that way anyway cuz I play by the book, but its not accurate. But back to my argument, how can you assume everyone who gets the first swing also hits that person easier because they were distracted for some reason? That's obviously not always the case.
What's not accurate about the rule? It's intended to simulate someone being caught off guard. How does it not achieve this end?
As for the why, fluff it however you like. Those were simply examples.
because yur not always caught off guard just because you didn't get the first punch. Being caught off guard would be represented by a surprise round
Becoming aware of combat = not being flat footed. This isn't even an action so it could certainly he done as the enemy approaches. Flat footed should only he the case when the victim is unaware of the attack
Actually no. Becoming aware isn't the same as not being flat-footed.
Say you're standing in line waiting to buy a sandwich at subway. Out of your peripheral vision you see a guy running at you with a knife. You're aware he's coming towards you but there's still a reaction time between noticing a dude running at you and getting into a fighting stance. That's where "flat-footed" comes from, etymologically speaking. You're standing there, legs straight up and down rather than bent and ready for action.
With my theory on all this one might think that i feel the only way to catch someone flat footed would be to sneak up on them. This might cause disbelief in my logic due to a gap that you may not be able to put yur finger on, but ill poi tit out.
Sometimes in life you catch someone off guard when they are riht in front of yur face as wellwould leave a gap in reality where people face to face are still caught flat footed as well. To me this would be represented with a bluff roll. If joes bluff beats jacks sense motive, then Joe gets a surprise round of combat as well. An example of this would be a dwarf and an off arguing at a bar when one just halls off outta nowhere and lands a blow on the off who was caught off guard. That's because the off didn't sense it coming, as he failed his sense motive
Becoming aware of combat = not being flat footed. This isn't even an action so it could certainly he done as the enemy approaches. Flat footed should only he the case when the victim is unaware of the attackActually no. Becoming aware isn't the same as not being flat-footed.
Say you're standing in line waiting to buy a sandwich at subway. Out of your peripheral vision you see a guy running at you with a knife. You're aware he's coming towards you but there's still a reaction time between noticing a dude running at you and getting into a fighting stance. That's where "flat-footed" comes from, etymologically speaking. You're standing there, legs straight up and down rather than bent and ready for action.
In PF there is no periphrial vision nor time spent turning around. Its as if you see in all directions and are always facing forward.
Also, simply scooting you foot back to brace yourself would cause you to no longer be flat footed, which could certainly be done as someone runs at you from even 10 feet. I'm jot saying he couldn't catch you flat footed, I'm just saying he would need to bluff you or sneak up on you as I mentioned in my last comment
Also, I'm not a battle hardened adventurer. Its basically my opinion that anyone who was wouldn't be flat footed by the time they reached them waiting for their sandwich. This is represented by the barbarians uncanny dodge. I just think that anyone trained for battle should see the benefits of that particular class feature
I just realized something. Is this the right board to debate the validity of a rule, or is it limited to clarifying rules? Perhaps I should have thought of that before lol
Alls I'm saying is that reaction time is >0s. As long as there is ANY reaction time, even in fractions of seconds, then someone can catch someone else off guard because the time it takes for light waves to hit your eyes, your brain to process it, and then for you to react by assuming a defensive posture is >0 seconds.
As your Dexterity is how Pathfinder measures physical reflexes and reaction time, determining who gets to react is an opposed Dexterity check (initiative) and the person that goes first gets the benefits of having gone first, to wit being able to hit a person unprepared to be punched at.
In PF there is no periphrial vision nor time spent turning around. Its as if you see in all directions and are always facing forward.
You seem to be confused with the parts of the system that is abstractions.
But if you feel rogues are OP then feel free to nerf them in your home games.
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My first question to the GM would be, why didn't the PC get a surprise round?
Why would there be a surprise round? As previously mentioned, both sides are:
A) Aware of one another.
B) Expect a fight to break out.
C) Are combat-trained enough to react quickly to combat situations.
I these situations, I'm going to just remove the flat-footed rule. We roll initiative and see what happens, but nobody is stuck with a gimped AC and massive sneak attack damage just because they botched one d20 roll which (all things being equal) is 50/50 in their favor.
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The key is deciding when the combat starts. The combat and initiative roll should take place when the first person prepares for combat, not the first swing. This could be someone standing up from the table, or moving towards the other person. At this point a perception roll to notice the situation has become hostile is appropriate, but may not be needed in some cases. At this point initiative is rolled and people can act in normal order. If you beat the person who started the situation you either act and interrupt his action like hitting him as he stands up, or you can either hold your action or declare a readied action. If anyone involved in the combat is not aware the combat is starting then you go to a surprise round, if everyone is aware then you go to a normal round.
Too many players are conditioned to attack automatically when initiative is rolled. Not every call for initiative needs to turn into a combat.
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At this point a perception roll to notice the situation has become hostile is appropriate
I get what you're saying, but adding in a perception check only worsens the situation, in my opinion.
Perception is already overused by inexperienced DMs, who require it for things like noticing tracks or determining an NPC's mood; those should instead be survival and sense motive checks.
Perception versus stealth should only be used for ambush situations that could result in surprise rounds of combat. For those fights, unaware combatants should be flat-footed, yes. That makes perfect sense.
But using perception for normal, anticipated combat encounters further solidifies the fact that perception is MANDATORY for all characters (which I detest). If you don't have ranks in it, you're basically resigning yourself to get insta-gibbed on the first round of combat, surprised or not, and even if you're completely aware of your enemies and their intent to start a fight.
"Not every call for init needs to be for combat" !!! I like that, Stranger. I used to just take the flat-footed thing as purely a game mechanic and applied no real-life thinking to it, just an abstract thing, but some of these posts have actually made it a little clearer, to me, about what that represents. If I'm ready to dodge vs not expecting the guy to swing on me, I can see it that way.
"At the start of a battle, before you have had a
chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in
the initiative order)" pg 178 core. Now, I used to take this to mean your first FULL turn in combat, so even if you acted in the surprise round, you were still flat-footed until your first FULL turn (vs the standard or move action the surprise round gave you), but no longer. I remove the flat-footed condition after the combatant has acted in the surprise round.
" those should instead be survival and sense motive checks." another Great idea, which I will use, Headfirst. Using Sense Motive to know that old boy is about to swing on me, roll initiative, vs being oblivious to his rising anger.See? this is why I come here.
At this point a perception roll to notice the situation has become hostile is appropriateI get what you're saying, but adding in a perception check only worsens the situation, in my opinion.
Perception is already overused by inexperienced DMs, who require it for things like noticing tracks or determining an NPC's mood; those should instead be survival and sense motive checks.
Perception versus stealth should only be used for ambush situations that could result in surprise rounds of combat. For those fights, unaware combatants should be flat-footed, yes. That makes perfect sense.
But using perception for normal, anticipated combat encounters further solidifies the fact that perception is MANDATORY for all characters (which I detest). If you don't have ranks in it, you're basically resigning yourself to get insta-gibbed on the first round of combat, surprised or not, and even if you're completely aware of your enemies and their intent to start a fight.
The perception roll is only needed if you are not paying attention to the situation. If you are in the bar flirting with the serving wench when the fight breaks out you need to make a perception roll to be aware. If you are at the table watching the action you do not need to make a perception roll.
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In our local games, the only people who seem to be in favor of the flat-footed rule are those who habitually play rogues and other classes that rely on sneak attacks. They think removing it is a downgrade to an already under-powered class.
To them (and anyone here whose reason for liking the rule how it is has to do with first round sneak attacks), I say this: If you want to sneak attack someone on the first round of combat, you're going to have to ambush them.
Carefully plan your ambush. Pick out the right spot and lure your enemies there. Use stealth or disguise to hide and force them to roll perception checks. Then, when initiative is rolled, you'll get a whole surprise round to attack their flat-footed AC and cause all of your amazing sneak attack damage.
But sorry, you don't get to sneak attack people who can plainly see you and themselves are responsible for the actions that cause a battle to start. When the half-orc throws a punch at you (which is what triggers initiative to be rolled), you might get to act first by beating his roll, but you're not going to sneak attack his flat-footed AC as though he had absolutely no idea a battle was about to happen.
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In your game you can house rule anything you want. As I stated before you should be rolling for initiative before the first punch. The time to call for initiative would be when the half orc stands up or moves in to punch. In many cases the first action in the combat is going to be a move action not an attack action. If you call for initiative when combat might start instead of after it starts you solve the problem. The combat may go for multiple rounds without any attack taking place. After everyone has acted whether they actually act of not they are no longer flat footed.
@BornofHate all you did was ignore the point, which was a good point indeed
Actually, I didn't ignore the point. I just addressed it from a different perspective based on what little information was provided. The instigator of the fight should have been allowed a surprise round but in the example he wasn't so I assumed that everyone was aware a fight was occurring. It seems to me, you are completely ignoring DELAYED AND READIED ACTIONS.
After rereading the post and assuming the half orcs weren't aware of the combat, the first character(s) to take action should receive a surprise round. Keep in mind that the surprise round is limited to a single standard action. Now let's say the PC initiates the combat. What follows is based on the reactions of the Half orcs. If they don't want to engage or assume the character is only approaching to talk. Then they will remain sitting comfortably at their table in the bar drinking their ale as the PC approaches. If the PC punches the Half orc, then that is their prerogative and their surprise round. Everyone rolls initiative, those aware of the fight act in the surprise round. Which in this case is only the instigating PC.
Now lets look at the scenario from a slightly different scenario. One in which the PC whispers to his friends "I'm gonna go punch that half brute in the slimy underbite" before heading over to the half orcs table. I as a GM would allow the half orcs a perception check to hear the PCs whisper. The half orcs who heard could either tell their group (another perception for the PCs to hear) that the PC plans to start a fight or he can keep his mouth shut. In either case, you as a GM have a lot of sorting to do as it pertains to who is aware of what. Too many for me to list casually. So let's just assume one mixed scenario. Let's assume the PC whispered to only the spell caster of the group who plans to cast a sleep spell right after the PC punches one of the orcs. One of the orcs sitting at a table hears what the PC said to his robed friend with the pointy hat and beard. Unfortunately for the half orc leader about to get punched, his perceptive friend is also a glutton for bar brawls and decides not to tell the other half orcs. The perceptive half orc instead decides to draw a dagger under the table as the PC approaches (sleight of hand vs perception for all involved, let's assume success) The PC approaches. Roll initiative:
The half orc with the dagger, the PC and the mage are all aware of what's gonna go down, but no one else is. Let's assume the spell caster wins initiative. He decides to READY AN ACTION to cast sleep when if any of the half orcs stand up to fight. Now Lets assume the half orc is next initiative. He can either stab the PC as he approaches because the PC is unaware and still flat footed, READY AN ACTION to interrupt the punch or he can DELAY HIS ACTION and wait for his friend to get punched. He decides to DELAY to stab the PC until after the PC punches the leader in the face because he doesn't want to get in trouble for starting the fight. Next is the PC who decides to punch the flat footed half orc leader in the face. Then the perceptive half orc decides to stab the non flatfooted PC in the ribs. He stands, which triggers the spell casters READIED ACTION. The spell caster casts sleep on the orcs but only the one in the far corner falls face first into his bowl of grits and pork feet. The perceptive half orc buries his dagger into the PCs ribs. Now the first round of combat takes place:
PC goes first, then perceptive half orc, then spell caster. Everyone else is sprinkled throughout. This might end up meaning that the half orc leader gets to act before the PC which negates his flat footed condition. Or it might mean that the PC gets to act before the leader to take a full round of attacks on the still flat footed half orc.
If you take flat footed out of the first round of combat it takes a lot of the realism and potential strategy away. If AGAIN I am missing the point, then maybe you should make your demands a bit more clear.
Separate scenario:
If both you and a combatant are aware like in a boxing ring, then both of your initiatives start when the bell rings, negating the flat footed condition. But there really aren't any bells in most of pathfinder, so you are left to initiatives, delayed actions, readied actions, and flat footed conditions.
Oh if you and Bruce Lee get into a fight, the best way to win is beg for mercy.
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My first question to the GM would be, why didn't the PC get a surprise round?Why would there be a surprise round? As previously mentioned, both sides are:
A) Aware of one another.
B) Expect a fight to break out.
C) Are combat-trained enough to react quickly to combat situations.
I these situations, I'm going to just remove the flat-footed rule. We roll initiative and see what happens, but nobody is stuck with a gimped AC and massive sneak attack damage just because they botched one d20 roll which (all things being equal) is 50/50 in their favor.
Mysterious Stranger already covered this but I want to emphasize it. Given your conditions of A, B, and C, my converse question for the GM would then be - why didn't you roll for init 6 rounds ago when it became clear to everyone combat was pretty much a given? Everyone at that point has acted, multiple times, and is no longer flat footed.
In PF there is no periphrial vision nor time spent turning around. Its as if you see in all directions and are always facing forward.
You seem to be confused with the parts of the system that is abstractions.
But if you feel rogues are OP then feel free to nerf them in your home games.
please explain.
No I don't think rogues are OP. I don't think any class is
Alls I'm saying is that reaction time is >0s. As long as there is ANY reaction time, even in fractions of seconds, then someone can catch someone else off guard because the time it takes for light waves to hit your eyes, your brain to process it, and then for you to react by assuming a defensive posture is >0 seconds.
As your Dexterity is how Pathfinder measures physical reflexes and reaction time, determining who gets to react is an opposed Dexterity check (initiative) and the person that goes first gets the benefits of having gone first, to wit being able to hit a person unprepared to be punched at.
agreed, but it still takes less time than the move action an opponent takes to get to you.
I guess I could agree that if you were already somehow adjacent to you enemy when he became aware that you were attacking him that you would be flat footed. Or even, if you don't have to take a move action before you attack then yur opponent is caught flat footed, so you could take a 5ft step and still catch them flat footed
@BornofHate how exactly do you figure I'm ignoring readied and delalayed actions?
The instigator of the fight certainly was allowed a surprise round. It clearly states a PC punched a half orc in the face and then initiative was rolled. That was pretty clearly a surprise round.
Also, why are you assuming the orcs don't know about the combat? Theyre standing there arguing. It seems apparent to me that they would know about the combat. If you disagree then that just means you have no experience with orcs(or anyone eager for violence). I've grown up around people like this my whole life. As soon as someone gets even a mouthy look in their eye at the bar, they are no longer flat footed
I didn't read past the first sentence of the second paragraph. I'll get to it later, there was just so much to say already
Also, why are you assuming the orcs don't know about the combat? Theyre standing there arguing. It seems apparent to me that they would know about the combat. If you disagree then that just means you have no experience with orcs(or anyone eager for violence). I've grown up around people like this my whole life. As soon as someone gets even a mouthy look in their eye at the bar, they are no longer flat footed
This is where the analogy falls apart. Pathfinder isn't a simulation of our reality. It's a game that has some very odd behaviors because of the tabletop nature of combat.
You could be fully expecting combat to break out but until it actually does you are flat-footed. That's just the way this universe works.
At your table you can always rule otherwise, of course.
To anyone for the flat footed rule at beginning of combat,
The rule applies to absolutely all combats. There for the rule should be relevant in absolutely all situations.
Imagine this scenario. My movement speed is 30ft, and we are in an empty parking lot minding our own businesses on a quiet night 90ft away from each other. I suddenly decide to charge at you with crazy look in my eye, screaming, while pulling a bloody short sword that you failed to notice befor. You weren't expecting combat, so I got a surprise round which I used to move 30ft towards you. Initiative time, I win. I use my turn to charge and attack. Are you flat footed by the time I travel 90ft to get to you? You've had nearly 6 seconds since you became aware that a maniac brandishing a bloody weapon is running at you. Can you honestly say you'd he flat footed?
Please do not side step the question by introducing new factors that aren't present. The situation is as it is. Do jot imagine the PF rules, imagine this happening in real life
To anyone for the flat footed rule at beginning of combat,
The rule applies to absolutely all combats. There for the rule should be relevant in absolutely all situations.
Imagine this scenario. My movement speed is 30ft, and we are in an empty parking lot minding our own businesses on a quiet night 60ft away from each other. I suddenly decide to charge at you with crazy look in my eye, screaming, and wielding a bloody greatsword. Are you flat footed by the time I travel 60ft to get to you? You've had nearly 6 seconds to view a maniac screaming while charging you with a bloody weapon. Can you honestly say you'd he flat footed?
Please do not side step the question by introducing new factors that aren't present. The situation is as it is
1) If you are charging then it takes far less than 6 seconds to cross the 60' and attack.
2) Yes, the target is honestly flat-footed. This is the rules of the world of Pathfinder.If it's a surprise round, you probably can't travel the whole 60'. But you may still beat your opponent in initiative and so could still cross the distance and attack while the enemy is flat-footed.
@Democritus
1) you could not be more wrong. Charging 60ft and attacking makes full use of all my actions in PF rules, which means it absolutely does take a full 6 seconds. I have no idea why you thing it would take far less
2) yur response here is completely invalid. I know the rule, I'm debating its validity. You can't justify the reasoning of a rule with the fact that its the rule
You argued "if its a surprise round". It not a surprise round because I charged and attacked. Thank you for making me realize how I can make my scenario even clearer though. Please refer back after I've had a moment to edit
Combat started when you screamed & pulled a sword.
Surprise round: you move 30 feet. I am flat-footed.
First real round: IF I won initiative, I'm no longer flat-footed and may respond.
IF you won, I'm aware of you charging at me, but haven't translated that to direct defensive action. Therefore, I'm flat-footed.Fiction and the nightly news are rife with both examples and flat-footed is how Pathfinder (imperfectly) models it.
the news is rife with examples of it happening to commoners, not soldiers. Were talking about trained adventurers seasoned by combat. This is why I suggested that uncanny dodge be handed out to more than just the barbarian and rogue. Sure, maybe not everyone should be ready to dodge a blow in a split second, but anyone who frequents battle should be. It could at least be a feat that can he taken freely
If you want to engage in a conversation, perhaps reading others posts thoroughly would help you to come to a more rational retaliation.
If you want to just gloss over a concise argument and interject your own misguided opinions, then that is your lot and you can't be debated with.
Sounds like you already made up your mind and won't listen to any validation that contradicts your position.
First of all, the charge in a surprise round is limited to thirty feet not sixty.
Second of all a surprise round is not meant to equate to 6 seconds.
Third, "aware of other combatants" in the surprise round definition does not mean 'able to perceive' it means 'recognizes as a combatant'
If you want to engage in a conversation, perhaps reading others posts thoroughly would help you to come to a more rational retaliation.
If you want to just gloss over a concise argument and interject your own misguided opinions, then that is your lot and you can't be debated with.
Sounds like you already made up your mind and won't listen to any validation that contradicts your position.
First of all, the charge in a surprise round is limited to thirty feet not sixty.
Second of all a surprise round is not meant to equate to 6 seconds.
Third, "aware of other combatants" in the surprise round definition does not mean 'able to perceive' it means 'recognizes as a combatant'
I didn't gloss it over, I merely didn't finish it. If I were trying to bake a cake and I found a step that required me to add urine I wouldn't need to finish reading that either. I wrote on only what I had read at the time. I stated that I planned on finishing it when I regained the energy I lost pointing pointing out everything you werent acknowledging in the first paragraph alone
1st I didn't charge 60ft in a surprise round. Before I deities I assumed no surprise round, which wasnt in my favor and also wasn't the correct way to handle the scenario so I edited it and it now stands as it should. Still, as adding the surprise round only favors me more, I don't see why it would be brought up
2nd please give me something to reference. I've never read anything to validate your claim. However if its correct then it seems as though it should be longer than 6 seconds, which only strengthens the point of my scenario
3rd what's that got to do with anything? The debate wasn't about AC during the surprise round, its about AC during the first round before you act. I agree you should he flat footed in a surprise round, but that's not what were talking about
@Democritus
1) you could not be more wrong. Charging 60ft and attacking makes full use of all my actions in PF rules, which means it absolutely does take a full 6 seconds. I have no idea why you thing it would take far less
Because you also get to attack after closing the distance. And attacking can take up quite a bit of the round. Not to mention there being time in there for other abilities that could proc even in a surprise round.
2) yur response here is completely invalid. I know the rule, I'm debating its validity. You can't justify the reasoning of a rule with the fact that its the rule
You miss the point entirely. You are trying to compare the real world to Pathfinder when the two don't use the same rules. In the pathfinder world you can be flat-footed while someone runs 60' at you. Characters simply don't react the same way.
You argued "if its a surprise round". It not a surprise round because I charged and attacked. Thank you for making me realize how I can make my scenario even clearer though. Please refer back after I've had a moment to edit
You can charge in a surprise round. Please see the rules under Combat: If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge. So "charging" is not enough to claim that it isn't a surprise round.
It clearly states a PC punched a half orc in the face and then initiative was rolled. That was pretty clearly a surprise round.
Except that's not how a surprise round works.
Technically, a surprise round only occurs if the combatants are unaware of each other, However, it's also the best method for handling the scenario you presented, but in that case it should still follow the same rules.
A surprise round means that everyone rolls initiative, and then the parties that are not part of the 'ambush' group - in this case, the orc and his allies (and, arguably, the rest of the human's party, since it wasn't a pre-planned attack) - get to make a Perception check. Given the circumstances it would be a stupidly low DC - probably a 5, or possibly even lower, since they are all standing right there. Whomever makes the check gets to then act on normal initiative during the surprise round, and take a single action - a move or a standard.
So if you just let the human punch the orc, and went "Surprise round!" and nobody else got to act, then it wasn't a surprise round.
@billygoat I do think soldiers get surprised, I just don't think it happens every single time they don't get the first swing. A surprise round would reflect the soldier being surprised, that's why its called a surprise round.
I get that 6 seconds incorperates everyone's turn, but my point is that the attack after the charge happens at the end of that players turn so it would be at the conclusion of the 6 seconds, there for yes there was "nearly"(as I stated before) 6 seconds to mentally absorb the situation
I understand by RAW I am wrong, but again for the 20th time, I'm not debating the rule, I'm arguing its validity
About charging and surprise round, please re read the scenario. I first didnt allow a surprise round but I edited to include one since it was the correct way to do it and it favored my arguement better anyway
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I'm not trying to be snarky, but I've flagged your post to be moved to a different forum. At this point, I think we all know there's no rules question here, and so effectively what's being discussed is a house rule. Since this is (to my knowledge) how it's worked since 3.x (and how it works in 4.0, if I remember correctly) it's unlikely to change.
@xaratherus that's a good point, but it really just calls for incorperation of another suggestion I made earlier
This is how I think that situation should have been handled
Guy states he wants to punch the orc. Everyone roll initiative. Now PC rolls bluff vs all orcs sense motive. Other allies roll sense motive vs DC 15(since he's not trying to bluff them). PC automatically enters surprise round since he is starting it, all orcs and allies that beat the sense motive also enter surprise round. Assume initiative
I realize this might seem like a bunch of rolls, but really its just a roll that everyone makes at once
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I'm not trying to be snarky, but I've flagged your post to be moved to a different forum. At this point, I think we all know there's no rules question here, and so effectively what's being discussed is a house rule. Since this is (to my knowledge) how it's worked since 3.x (and how it works in 4.0, if I remember correctly) it's unlikely to change.
that's fine. I actually asked yesterday if I was on the right board to be debating the rule or if this board was limited to clarification. No one answered so I conitiued to debate its validity. Thanx for the heads up though. Now that I see its a board only for clarification I realize why I'm getting so much resistance lol. My bad guys. I stand by my point but this is the wrong place to make it
I think you could also use a variant of the feinting rules to cover this case. Obviously everyone knows that everyone else is present, but until it actually happens it is not certain that a fight is about to start. It would not be unreasonable to have the character planning to start a fight attempt a Bluff check against the Sense Motive checks of his everyone else to start the fight with a sucker punch. You would then roll inititive, and only the instigator and those who made Sense Motive checks with a DC equal to his Bluff check result (possibly modified by how tense the general situation is) would be able to act in the surprise round.
The advantage of this approach is that you avoid an all too frequent case that I have seen where somebody wins the initiative roll and has no idea why he is in initiative -- so he is actually "punished" for beating the ambusher to the punch. If you beat the ambusher's Bluff with your Sense Motive, you know his hostile intentions and can react appropriately.
the news is rife with examples of it happening to commoners, not soldiers. Were talking about trained adventurers seasoned by combat. This is why I suggested that uncanny dodge be handed out to more than just the barbarian and rogue. Sure, maybe not everyone should be ready to dodge a blow in a split second, but anyone who frequents battle should be. It could at least be a feat that can he taken freelyCombat started when you screamed & pulled a sword.
Surprise round: you move 30 feet. I am flat-footed.
First real round: IF I won initiative, I'm no longer flat-footed and may respond.
IF you won, I'm aware of you charging at me, but haven't translated that to direct defensive action. Therefore, I'm flat-footed.Fiction and the nightly news are rife with both examples and flat-footed is how Pathfinder (imperfectly) models it.
They have that choice, it's called combat reflexes with a reach weapon and the ability to trip/disarm/sunder. If they don't want to do that the seasoning they're prepared with won't be their decision.
Yummm yummm yumm...
I'm sorry, perhaps you should restate your claim.
If what you are saying is this:
'No parties who are mutually aware of each other should ever be caught flat footed"
I simply have to agree to disagree. I think that adds, as you put it, "urine" to a sound game mechanic.
BTW I'm being overly receptive to your underhanded jabs.
I'm sorry, perhaps you should restate your claim.
If what you are saying is this:
'No parties who are mutually aware of each other should ever be caught flat footed"
I simply have to agree to disagree. I think that adds, as you put it, "urine" to a sound game mechanic.
BTW I'm being overly receptive to your underhanded jabs.
yes that is the gist of what I'm saying, unless a bluff check is made in the format I described above. I can agree to disagree though
Sorry, I've become frustrated with the conversation. I have made many valid points in the debate of the rule that have went unaddressed over and over again. Sorry man. I realize now that its likely because I'm on a board meant for clarification, not debate
the news is rife with examples of it happening to commoners, not soldiers. Were talking about trained adventurers seasoned by combat. This is why I suggested that uncanny dodge be handed out to more than just the barbarian and rogue. Sure, maybe not everyone should be ready to dodge a blow in a split second, but anyone who frequents battle should be. It could at least be a feat that can he taken freelyCombat started when you screamed & pulled a sword.
Surprise round: you move 30 feet. I am flat-footed.
First real round: IF I won initiative, I'm no longer flat-footed and may respond.
IF you won, I'm aware of you charging at me, but haven't translated that to direct defensive action. Therefore, I'm flat-footed.Fiction and the nightly news are rife with both examples and flat-footed is how Pathfinder (imperfectly) models it.
They have that choice, it's called combat reflexes with a reach weapon and the ability to trip/disarm/sunder. If they don't want to do that the seasoning they're prepared with won't be their decision.
Yummm yummm yumm...
i didnt think of that, nice. There are still more common scenarios where the person is ready to dodge the first blow. I think there should be a lesser version of uncanny dodge available as a feat. Lesser uncanny dodge would negate flat footed on the first round of combat. You would still be susceptible during surprise rounds and while being flanked. I realize that this convo doesn't really belong on this thread at this point though, I just wanted to address what you said
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I get that 6 seconds incorperates everyone's turn, but my point is that the attack after the charge happens at the end of that players turn so it would be at the conclusion of the 6 seconds, there for yes there was "nearly"(as I stated before) 6 seconds to mentally absorb the ...
The end of a turn happens at their initiative step and not the end of the full six seconds. Those going after them receive the damage and then can react in turn with their full set of actions. Obviously each can not take a full six seconds to resolve. Pathfinder is an abstract turn based system that does not attempt to model reality perfectly.
The advantage of this approach is that you avoid an all too frequent case that I have seen where somebody wins the initiative roll and has no idea why he is in initiative -- so he is actually "punished" for beating the ambusher to the punch. If you beat the ambusher's Bluff with your Sense Motive, you know his hostile intentions and can react appropriately.
If someone beats the initiative roll, but has no idea why... then whoever does know why should be acting in a surprise round before the high init roller is declaring any actions. An unaware opponent should never be going before an ambusher - the whole point of the ambush is to get that surprise round.
The end of a turn happens at their initiative step and not the end of the full six seconds. Those going after them receive the damage and then can react in turn with their full set of actions. Obviously each can not take a full six seconds to resolve. Pathfinder is an abstract turn based system that does not attempt to model reality perfectly.
I get that 6 seconds incorperates everyone's turn, but my point is that the attack after the charge happens at the end of that players turn so it would be at the conclusion of the 6 seconds, there for yes there was "nearly"(as I stated before) 6 seconds to mentally absorb the ...
that's because its impossible to model perfectly, but the closest it can get and function is the goal. while the end of a turn happens on its own initiative, all turns are still meant to happen at once. its meant to simulate battle the best it can while still being playable. nothing I said makes it more complex, nor does it make it less realistic. a person who is aware you are attacking them is not ALWAYS flat footed under all circumstances. I refer to my example above. if the person being attacked in that example is flat footed then it is because he is not use to combat. i guess its likely that no one here is use to combat either and that's why so many don't agree with what im saying, but we aren't talking about ourselves, we are talking about trained warriors.
If someone beats the initiative roll, but has no idea why... then whoever does know why should be acting in a surprise round before the high init roller is declaring any actions. An unaware opponent should never be going before an ambusher - the whole point of the ambush is to get that surprise round.The advantage of this approach is that you avoid an all too frequent case that I have seen where somebody wins the initiative roll and has no idea why he is in initiative -- so he is actually "punished" for beating the ambusher to the punch. If you beat the ambusher's Bluff with your Sense Motive, you know his hostile intentions and can react appropriately.
agreed. and in that surprise round all who are surprised should be flat footed. that's my whole point. that is the time that a person who hasn't acted yet should be denied their dex, but afterword i disagree that they should be just because they haven't acted yet. you can be ready to dodge a blow faster than you can be ready to swing. as soon as yur aware of a threat, i don't believe you should be flat footed. this should be the house rule thread though
@Kalshane with what i just said, it doesn't really make the rogue weaker because the rogue should be able to bluff or sneak on nearly anyone to cause them to be unaware of hostility, gaining that surprise round where, i agree, they should be flat footed
Actually a good thread. It's a good, mind-opening discussion about that first six seconds of combat.
I'm tempted to make some sort of rule about charged crossbows too (as it would make them more viable in PF) but I'd need to include ready firearms and possibly held spells, which got me to thinking:
Those Sense Motive and Bluff skills someone mentioned earlier could come in handy for those face-to-face situations where everything is becoming hostile. It's the equivalent of Mickey Spillane carefully reaching into his pocket to cock his pistol, or some cowboy villain eyeing that rifle laying in the dirt nearby, or Han Solo reaching under the table to unsnap his holster. Fail your Sense Motive check? Too bad, they now have a readied action on you.
What does that mean? It means HAN SHOOTS FIRST. It doesn't mean an automatic success of course (still gotta roll those) but everyone can make Bluff and Sense motive rolls to ready an action before Initiative is rolled.
Made your Sense Motive roll? Did he fail his Bluff roll? You see him readying an action and you can all roll initiative. Good luck. He still might be faster than you.
EDIT: Here's a scene to help explain how someone face-to-face and ready for combat can beat you in initiative: Billy Jack Whopping
Not to muddy the water, but there's a subtle distinction in the combat terminology that had never occurred to me until I experienced it in a recent gaming session:
There is a difference between being aware of a combatant, and being aware that someone is a combatant.
Case in point in a recent bar brawl: The bartender had been readying actions behind the DM screen throughout the entire encounter.
None of the PC's were aware that he was a combatant. We got our surprise round in while we were outside the bar, and then carried the fight indoors. He saw us initiate combat outside the bar (though a window) and aced his perception check. None of us attacked him (or the group of musicians in the bar, who actually continued to play for a bit until the brawl expanded in their direction.) We had either defeated or chased off everyone in the bar except the bartender, who was just watching us. We saw no threats, finally, and breathed a sigh of relief. And then we realized we were still moving on initiative counts. He hadn't attacked us, and none of us (as characters) were inclined to attack an apparently unarmed man. He ordered us out of his tavern, so we left. Nobody saw him as a threat, but he was the toughest NPC in the building.
We found out in the after-game bull session that the bartender could have pretty much wiped us out with a single negative energy channel if we hadn't walked away. He'd had the drop on us from the start, readied his channel during the surprise round, and waited. Technically, we were defeated in combat.
Moral of the story, I suppose...you're not always as aware as you think you are.
People seem to be getting tripped up by the various details of that half-orc sucker punch scenario, so, let's try a clearer variation.
Loro is an elf who likes to drink, and has been around the block enough times to know that some people just plain hate elves. Brut is human with some deepseated prejudices against all elves, looking for any excuse he can to make like hell for them. Here's a few possible ways an altercation between them might go down.
1- The unsubtle approach.
Brut sees Loro from way across the bar. He shouts "Hey! Long ears! You stepped into the wrong place!" Around the words "Long ears" we roll init, because he's making his intent for some sort of combat pretty darn clear. Also, there is no surprise round.
If Brut wins, and the distance is short enough, he can stride over while he's still talking, and slug Loro in the face before it fully registers that he's the one being called out. If it's a really crowded or large bar though, he might have to spend the first round here covering the distance, in which case nobody is flatfooted once attacks start getting rolled.
If Loro wins, that's him immediately processing what's about to go down, while Brut's still making his proclamation of intent. If the distance is short enough, and he's on his last nerve with these violent racists he keeps running into when he's just trying to have a drink, he might do some crazy parkour bar hop and kick this jerk in the teeth before he's even done making his big ol' proclamation and setting down his drink, catching him flatfooted (like the sneaky elf bastard Brut took him for). In the more likely event he's in a mellower mood, he'll adopt a defensive stance, ready to dodge a punch if need be, as he backs away, tries to talk him down, gets ready to pop him in the face if he gets too close, just really focuses on dodging, has to cross a big crowded bar first, whatever.
2- The charging bull.
Brut doesn't say a damn thing when he sees Loro walk in. He just starts quietly seething with rage and striding over to tear those ears off the sides of that smug little face. The GM might give Loro a per check to spot Brut's nostril flaring murder gaze as he puts down his drink and shoves back from his chair. This, again, is when we roll init by the way. If Loro passes the per check, we're back to case 1, otherwise, Brut gets a surprise round, but he has to spend the whole thing crossing the bar.
If Brut has the better init, he gets right up in Loro's face before he knows what's what and clobbers him with a full attack while he's still flatfooted. If Loro's init is better, he sees the ball of rage beelining for him just in time to react, and can full attack popping him in the nose to establish dominance, or pull a knife and stab him properly, or whatever else, but nobody's flatfooted because Brut acted in the surprise round.
3- The sucker punch.
Brut sees Loro, but decides for once, he's going to play it cool. Being careful not to give away his intentions, he calmly sets down his drink, stands up, keeping his body language cool and collected. Now he either sneaks up on his target real subtle-like (stealth vs. perception), or acting all calm and friendly like he's just going to greet the new guy (bluff vs. sense motive). Assuming Brut wins this opposed check, he can get right up on top of Loro before doing anything at all aggressive, so we don't even roll init until he's adjacent, and it's a surprise round. If Loro wins the check we just roll init right then, and we're back to a similar situation as above. I suppose he could potentially make things all complicated and make a bluff of his own like he didn't see him coming*, but let's just focus on Brut successfully sneaking up here.
First, Brut gets his surprise round action. Wham, he hits the flatfooted Loro over the head or trips him or shoves him or whatever he's doing to kick things off properly. If he also beat him on init, he then gets a whole proper turn to keep hitting him before Loro can even get his head straight on where that first hit came from, so he's flatfooted for that too. If Loro's init is better, the first hit still blindsides him, but the second it connects he gets what's going on and starts fighting back, no more flat feet.
4- The passive aggressor.
Brut acts like he's going to rush over and hit Loro hoping to goad him into attacking so he can call him out as some kinda violent long-eared freak starting trouble. Take one of the above examples, throwing in a bluff vs. sense motive check at the start. Unless Loro takes the bait with surprising gusto and we get into that mid-sentence bar parkour bit, nobody's going to end up flatfooted when it matters, because Loro is going to be moving up and not attacking, thus having acted, before Loro's provoked punch. I'm only mentioning this because one of the half-orc variations sorta turned into this. I don't really see it working out though because if he's making a clear enough show of violent intent to bait Loro into hitting him, he's going to fool any witnesses too, and they'll think he was acting in self-defense.
5- The dizzying double bluff.
* Addressing the complex situation I described before, where Loro notices Brut sneaking up to sucker punch him, and acts like he doesn't see it coming so he can ready an action to hit him first, it's entirely possible that the GM might declare Brut to be flatfooted against that attack, because he's not in a combat ready stance, he's acting all nonchalant or tiptoeing over. That's a perfectly viable call on the GM's part, and I'm pretty sure it's what you'd get out of a strict reading of the rules, but it has nothing at all to do with the first round bit, which we're well past by the time the attack is made, we're just getting into other situations that can leave you flatfooted.
Everyone on the same page now?