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High level wasn't quite right, yeah. I'd probably ballpark Beowulf at level 10.
Well, Grendel is apparently Cr 19 and Mythic...so Beowulf is likely around the same and also Mythic. Fighter or Barbarian 15-16 plus Champion or Guardian 6-8 seems about right.
Speaking as officially as possible. :)
At that point just give them a good will save. It's only a 1 point difference when all is said and done.
One very cool suggestion made earlier by Aelryinth(?) was a feat that adds riders or modifiers on Bravery - a feat that makes Bravery a straight bonus to Will saves instead of only vs fear would help out the fighter's traditionally atrocious will save, for instance. It'd stack with Iron Will and grant a scalable bonus that peaks at +5 on lvl 18.
The two top issues mentioned in most fighter threads are A: Saves and B: inability to contribute outside of combat, typically lack of skills.
Short of Pathfinder 2.0, Paizo are not going to rewrite the fighter class as represented in the CRB - there are a number of quotes on that.
Instead, we can try to provide the fighter with tools to help alleviate his shortcomings.
I'm thinking something like the Style feats for the monk, but the fighter variant should focus on Out-of-Combat utility and be ideally designed for fighters. 5-6 feats, each feat or feat chain represents a common portrayal of a fighter: drill sergeant, bodyguard, thug, scout, knight, mercenary?
Drill Sergeant (Combat)
Prerequisites: Wisdom 13, Fighter 1
Benefit: As a Move action you can provide your allies with advice, encouragement, and a hefty dose of yelling. They can use your Profession: Soldier skill modifier in place of their modifier when making Acrobatics, Climb or Swim checks. The fighter also treats Sense Motive as a class skill, as he gains a finely honed cowdung detector from long experience of working with soldiers.
At 4th level, a fighter can start Drilling as a Swift action. At 7th level, he can start Drilling as an Immediate action.
I realize this is a feat with an expiration date, so I'd either provide a chain of additional feats that builds on it or expect most fighters to retrain it into something else when Climb and Swim checks stop being relevant and Acrobatics DCs become rough(er).
Bodyguard (Combat)
Prerequisites: Constitution 13, Fighter 1
The fighter treats Perception and Sense Motive as a class skill, and the fighter may make Perception checks using his Constitution modifier instead the skill's normal ability score.
At 5th level, the fighter rolls two perception checks and uses the better of the two rolls to notice an ambush, trap or other potentially dangerous situation.
I know there are other feats named bodyguard - I couldn't come up with a better name off the top of my head though. Suggestions are very welcome.
Irrepressible Bravery
Prerequisites: Fighter 2, Bravery class feature.
You can add your Bravery bonus to all will saves, not just on saves vs Fear.
At 7th level, the fighter can expend an Immediate action to reroll a failed save. The fighter can do this three times per day, with an additional attempt for every three fighter levels.
The language on this obviously needs some cleaning up and the charges could probably do with some fine-tuning - I'm not particularly good at homebrewing the details. However, I find that a large part of the reason why the fighter is underwhelming is that Pathfinder feats as a whole are underwhelming. If you're willing to put aside the internal balance between normal feats and fighter-only feats, we can provide the fighter with some interesting class features without dramatically shaking the feat boat or needing to completely rewrite the CRB text.
More skill points, I'd say 6 is fine.
All their saves should be good.
They should be able to pick a number of skills to be class skills, like Int bonus+4.
Bravery is garbage, toss it completely, give them something else in exchange, like being able to move and make an additional attack or higher movement speed.
Armor Training 3 should grant DR/magic. Armor Training 4 should grant DR/Adamantine and magic. Armor mastery should grant DR/-. These should probably be equal to the AC provided by your armor.
Feats need to be condensed. Badly.
Fighters should be able to swap out their combat feats a number of times a day equal to 1/2 their fighter level.
Armor check penalties should be based on armor category, not arbitrarily tacked on, and even then they shouldn't be so high. I'd say, ACP 1 for light armor, 2 for medium, and 3 or 4 for heavy. Especially since the difference between a master and everyone else is apparently 5 skill ranks, according to the master craftsman feat.
Armor also shouldn't reduce your movement, except by weight.
Instead, we can try to provide the fighter with tools to help alleviate his shortcomings.
I'm thinking something like the Style feats for the monk, but the fighter variant should focus on Out-of-Combat utility and be ideally designed for fighters. 5-6 feats, each feat or feat chain represents a common portrayal of a fighter: drill sergeant, bodyguard, thug, scout, knight, mercenary?
Drill Sergeant (Combat)
Prerequisites: Wisdom 13, Fighter 1
Benefit: As a Move action you can provide your allies with advice, encouragement, and a hefty dose of yelling. They can use your Profession: Soldier skill modifier in place of their modifier when making Acrobatics, Climb or Swim checks. The fighter also treats Sense Motive as a class skill, as he gains a finely honed cowdung detector from long experience of working with soldiers.
At 4th level, a fighter can start Drilling as a Swift action. At 7th level, he can start Drilling as an Immediate action.I realize this is a feat with an expiration date, so I'd either provide a chain of additional feats that builds on it or expect most fighters to retrain it into something else when Climb and Swim checks stop being relevant and Acrobatics DCs become...
The Bond of Muscle
Prerequisities: Str 15, Fighter 3, 2 ranks in diplomacy, bluff, or intimidateBenefit: Character may use their Strength modifier in place of their Charisma modifier for diplomacy, bluff, and intimidate.
Special: This bonus does stack with Intimidating Prowess. The character's strength modifier would count twice.
The Bond of Muscle
Prerequisities: Str 15, Fighter 3, 2 ranks in diplomacy, bluff, or intimidate
Benefit: Character may use their Strength modifier in place of their Charisma modifier for diplomacy, bluff, and intimidate.
Special: This bonus does stack with Intimidating Prowess. The character's strength modifier would count twice.
Some of these 'solutions' are starting to feel a little abstract or complicated. Keep it simple. Don't do quarters of levels. Stick with either whole numbers or halves. Guaranteed money? That's a little silly.
The idea of choosing a save is strange. Does anything else do this? If not then stick to standard conventions. Give him a good will save and ditch bravery or give him a good reflex and keep bravery (though a buffed version).
Why create mechanics for a lot of this stuff? Why not just let fighters ignore stat requirements on anything considered a combat feat? Would it really be that unbalanced?
I also have to agree with Squirrel_Dude (though he appears to be a rabbit) that making feats stronger is not the way to go. That makes everyone better, not fighters.
The more I think about the more I feel like making fighters better at maneuvers in general is the best way to go. Think of any fight scene from a movie or book with a bad ass warrior or fighter. They knock the sword from one guys hands, cut another guys quarter staff in half, push someone away into a group of bad guys, trip someone running past, or snatch something from someone's grasp. It would give them options in just about any situation.
Quarter levels is not silly at all and is actually pretty common. You just need to word it like this:
"Beginning at level 1, a fighter's attributes are all 1 point higher for the purpose of qualifying for combat feats. At level 4 and every 4 levels thereafter, these attributes are effectively and additional one point higher to a maximum of 6 points higher at level 20."I just didn't write out the full rule when I suggested it.
Quarter levels is not silly at all and is actually pretty common. You just need to word it like this:
"Beginning at level 1, a fighter's attributes are all 1 point higher for the purpose of qualifying for combat feats. At level 4 and every 4 levels thereafter, these attributes are effectively and additional one point higher to a maximum of 6 points higher at level 20."I just didn't write out the full rule when I suggested it.
Well, I meant the money thing was silly. You can't fix the fighter by throwing gold at it. You can make a commoner bad ass with enough gold.
With your suggestion I meant it was a little complicated. Why not just skip to the end and let them ignore stat requirements for combat feats? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be a big deal. They'd still have to meet the other requirements of the feat.
Quarter levels is not silly at all and is actually pretty common. You just need to word it like this:
"Beginning at level 1, a fighter's attributes are all 1 point higher for the purpose of qualifying for combat feats. At level 4 and every 4 levels thereafter, these attributes are effectively and additional one point higher to a maximum of 6 points higher at level 20."I just didn't write out the full rule when I suggested it.
Well, I meant the money thing was silly. You can't fix the fighter by throwing gold at it. You can make a commoner bad ass with enough gold.
With your suggestion I meant it was a little complicated. Why not just skip to the end and let them ignore stat requirements for combat feats? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be a big deal. They'd still have to meet the other requirements of the feat.
I've come to ask myself if stat prereqs are necessary at all.
But...but that's ridiculous!The Bond of Muscle
Prerequisities: Str 15, Fighter 3, 2 ranks in diplomacy, bluff, or intimidate
Benefit: Character may use their Strength modifier in place of their Charisma modifier for diplomacy, bluff, and intimidate.
Special: This bonus does stack with Intimidating Prowess. The character's strength modifier would count twice.
To draw another parallel, to real world example, as to why having a high physical stat to replace your charisma isn't ridiculous: Professional wrestling.
Brock Lesnar, and many other big guys in prowerestling can't use the mic. They're terrible at it. I dare you to listen to a Lesnar promo, or just him doing those eagle-screech screams of his and wonder how such high-pitched sounds can come out of a man that big. But it doesn't matter because he is so physically imposing, he has such a great look to him, that his size and stature just naturally draws hims attention.
Now, Lesnar has Paul Heyman for when he's a heel, but there are plenty of other guys who can't talk, but have gotten over because of their physical stature.
Yeah, it's not the best fix, not the only fix, but it's a fix.
I'll agree that it can be a fix, but come on. Assuredly we can come up with something better and more interesting than that.
Quarter levels is not silly at all and is actually pretty common. You just need to word it like this:
"Beginning at level 1, a fighter's attributes are all 1 point higher for the purpose of qualifying for combat feats. At level 4 and every 4 levels thereafter, these attributes are effectively and additional one point higher to a maximum of 6 points higher at level 20."I just didn't write out the full rule when I suggested it.
Well, I meant the money thing was silly. You can't fix the fighter by throwing gold at it. You can make a commoner bad ass with enough gold.
With your suggestion I meant it was a little complicated. Why not just skip to the end and let them ignore stat requirements for combat feats? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be a big deal. They'd still have to meet the other requirements of the feat.
Because there exist feats where attributes are the most important requirement (e.g. fast drinker and the two-weapon fighting chain).
I almost just want to give them extra combat feats at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17 (so they have more levels like their excellent first level where they get two feats at once).
It would also be nice to have some fighter-specific style feat chains like the monk gets.
Honestly, what I'd do is this:
Allow fighters to add 10' to their 5' step distance by sacrificing their worst Iterative attack, starting at 6th level. Allow them to add 20' to their 5' step distance by sacrificing two iterative attacks at 11th level.
The problem with fighters, especially melee ones, is that "move or attack" penalizes them more than it penalizes any other character build or class - wizards higher level spells are still standard actions. Fighter full attacks are full round actions that only allow a 5' step.
That should maybe just be a universal rule for melee classes.
Because there exist feats where attributes are the most important requirement (e.g. fast drinker and the two-weapon fighting chain).
Some classes get to ignore stat requirements on their bonus feats lists or combat styles. A ranger can have a 10 dex (or less!) and have Greater Two Weapon Fighting. But the fighter, the seemingly master of arms, gets no such privilege? Seems a bit off. What's the point of those stat requirements anyway? What do they keep in check? They seem to just be a barrier to slow down fighters.
Look at the flip side of things. What stat requirements do you see on caster feats? Bending the laws of magic, which bend the laws of the universe, seems like it should have an int requirement of some sort.
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But Quicken Spell can be taken by a first level Wizard with an INT of 11...not saying it can be used by them, but...
The problem identified here is that fighters are supposed to be "realistic" while wizards get a pass on "Hey, it's, y'know, magic. I tell the laws of physics to go sit in the corner and stop their f$~#ing sniveling as I do horrible things to them."
Well, 3rd level Wizard spells have a 13 int requirement.... the same as Combat Expertise >_<
My point was that most other classes seem to be able to either ignore stat requirements or not even have them. The fighter has to put up with all the bull crap. Which is another problem that afflicts them on the whole.
I was trying to highlight your point there GP.
Ah. My bad.
And realistically you need an associate degree to trip or disarm people.
There used to an old rule of thumb that 1 point of int was about 10 points of IQ. So, yeah, you'd have to be edging in on genius level to disarm someone.
That rule of thumb came from Palladium, not D&D. In D&D, going by a straight 3d6 roll, 130 IQ would be extremely common. Try 5 points, if you wanted to guess.
In any case, it's a requirement to disarm someone without risk. Disarming is far less feat-intensive in Pathfinder than in 3.5. Just take your lumps and make the roll.
That rule of thumb came from Palladium, not D&D. In D&D, going by a straight 3d6 roll, 130 IQ would be extremely common. Try 5 points, if you wanted to guess.
At that rate the average commoner would have an IQ of 50. That's way below Forrest Gump levels. Might want to turn the dial up a bit.
In any case, it's a requirement to disarm someone without risk. Disarming is far less feat-intensive in Pathfinder than in 3.5. Just take your lumps and make the roll.
What Pathfinder game do you play? 3.5 had 1 feat for disarm. Pathfinder has 2. Not to mention it's harder to pull off these kind of maneuvers in pathfinder than 3.5.
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There used to an old rule of thumb that 1 point of int was about 10 points of IQ. So, yeah, you'd have to be edging in on genius level to disarm someone.
Yeah...that hasn't been true for a long time (especially since Humans got a floating +2 they can put in Int). I'd personally be inclined to say, having some small knowledge of psychometrics, that every two points of Int (so every +1 Int mod) is about one standard deviation from the norm, and in IQ, a standard deviation is 15 IQ points. Int 10 would be 100 IQ, obviously. So, a 13 would be around 120 IQ or so, since a 12 is 115 and a 14 is 130. Going higher, a 16 would be 145, an 18 would be 160, and a 20 would be 175. Going lower, an 8 would be 85 IQ, a 6 would be 70, and a 4 would be 55. Which all sounds about right to me.
Yeah...that hasn't been true for a long time (especially since Humans got a floating +2 they can put in Int). I'd personally be inclined to say, having some small knowledge of psychometrics, that every two points of Int (so every +1 Int mod) is about one standard deviation from the norm, and in IQ, a standard deviation is 15 IQ points. Int 10 would be 100 IQ, obviously. So, a 13 would be around 120 IQ or so, since a 12 is 115 and a 14 is 130. Going higher, a 16 would be 145, an 18 would be 160, and a 20 would be 175. Going lower, an 8 would be 85 IQ, a 6 would be 70, and a 4 would be 55. Which all sounds about right to me.
Well, I did say about 10 per point which is fairly close. Sometimes a little more. Sometimes a little less. I think we're splitting hairs though. My point was that fighters shouldn't need to be incredibly smart to push someone, trip someone, or knock something from their hands.