I'm clearly missing something - I don't know if i'm just not cunning enough with illusion magic, or if I've just overlooked something in the text but anyway...
Yogoltha the aboleth can be encountered around the city as a random encounter. He's even cited as a possible 'retaliation', stealing away/dominating an NPC.
My question is: how?
A projected image has only 100ft +10-ft per level range so it's not like it can do that from it's nice safe pool, veiled or not. I can't imagine the Aboleth is going to want to go near the froghemoth or mokele-mbembe so the large lakes are probably out. It's currently in a pool/slow lake which joins up with a river tributary who's source is only a thousand feet upriver meaning the tributary can't possibly be deep or wide enough yet to have a 6500lb, 25ft long aboleth swim down it in order to get to the network of canals or what have you (that the map doesn't show as being particularly extensive anyway) and I can't see it dragging itself across land, certainly not through Saventh-Yhi where it would be vulnerable.
Aboleths can have class levels. But this one - despite being 'advanced' and 4 CR levels higher than a normal Aboleth - does not. There's really very little to show for those 4CR levels except some higher DC/stats.
This particular Aboleth is stated as having only the 2 gibbering mouthers and the boggard oracle as minions. Neither of these are anywhere near combat range of the aboleth if the players happen to discover it's hidden pool and there is practically nothing that the Aboleth, from stats, can do without leaving the pool and travelling deep into the city, rendering it highly vulnerable. There's a good chance that the players will encounter and kill the mouthers and Oracle before they encounter the aboleth anyway and it only has 3/day dominates so its not like it can create an army of slaves quickly.
If someone can give me a clue as to how to actually play Yog'oltha that would be really helpful! How did you use it in your campaign, how do you normally play aboleths?
Second: how do Aboleths fight if it comes to a direct confrontation? The illusions they can cast do not include any shadow illusions so they can't actually do any damage with their spell like abilities, nor will any illusionary minions fool anyone when it comes to actual combat. They only get 3 dominates a day. Sure the DC23 is high enough but the instant a player is given any kind of useful instruction they get a second save, so with players at L7-10 it's certainly not a guarantee that this will work.
In short, I think need a crash course in:
'how to use combined illusions to combat advantage' with the illusions in question coming only from the Aboleth SLA list.
Using veil to make himself look like something else then projected image to be able to go out to fight is all very well, but it can't actually *do* anything when it does that - sure you can cast spells via a projected image. But it doesn't have any! It has some illusion SLAs (all non-shadow so cannot cause damage) and a limited number of dominates that it might or might be able to land, and anything useful it could do with them will grant a second save anyhow.
I appreciate Aboleths aren't supposed to be direct confrontation monsters especially, but I'm having real difficulty seeing how this particular one (which named but with no class levels, particularly not wizard: it had to use a dominated wizard in order to get access to the Fly spell and get to Saventh Yhi in the first place) can be used in the way the adventure pack says it can be used?
EDIT: Can a kind mod please spoiler bracket my first post? I realise now that this isn't a GM area, and that's very bad etiquette on my part./end edit.
Anyone?
Could really use help here, I want to make it a memorable bad guy.
I just need to know how you have it move around the city safely (how does it defend or evade consistently, what spells does it use in what way), and how it uses the illusions SLAs he has listed to actually affect the players.
Dominate I get: order them to 'defend me, I am your friend, you'd give your life not to let me get hurt!' is not a direct order to hurt your friends, but it does only have 3 of those, and they aren't guaranteed to land, and I'll certainly give them a second save if circumstances force them to actually fight their own party members rather than restraining them.
But it must have more than that up its sleeve? What's the point of being able to summon illusionary minions which can't hurt anything, the players will catch on very fast and then what's it left with? It doesn't even have any shadow conjurations which just seems bizarre, and it can't possibly get away given it's movement speed if they've got it hemmed in in its pond with nowhere to swim away to.
As you can tell, I've a real blind spot with GMing illusions :) Can anyone give me some ideas using just the specific spells on Yog'oltha?
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Like you, I was not entirely sure how to handle the aboleth. I did read another DMs approach which gave me some cool ideas: Tacticslion's Approach .
Basically, the approach is to layer the encounter behind a series of illusions. First, the spell Illusionary Wall is permanent. The aboleth can cast these well in advance and as the caster can see right through them. The aboleth could shape his lair completely with these walls. To the outsider, his lair would seem like the bottom of the pool. So the aboleth can cast his offensive spells, like Dominate, from behind multiple walls and then with his move action swim behind some other wall in some other location. When the PCs figure out the first wall is an illusion, they cross it only to find a programmed image not noticing that there is a second or third wall.
He also has a reach of 15feet so he can probably attack from behind one wall and move within an illusionnary corridor and easily hide somewhere else entirely with his move action.
He can also hide behind other layers of deception, he can cast "Project Image" to help miss-direct your PCs from figure out where the real threat is.
Finally, like the above link suggests, he can fake an escape all without ever loosing any hp.
This helps him maximize his chance of having him succeed with one of his Dominate.
You can finally mix a few previously Dominated Monsters with Programmed Images within the Illusionary Lair. Remember that Programmed Images are permanent also.
Awesome! I got cited! And it was the thing I was going to look for to link, too! Huzzah!
I'm glad I helped, Maplewood!
(I kind of responded... three months later... to another post of yours just now, too. Sorry for the delay.)
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Thanks very much! I'm going to steal... All of that, frankly. And give him a huge pile of recovered loot as well since the players really are loot light at level 8 now and still at tazion. Random encounters can rack up a lot of xp apparently. Point is I want to give them an overall villain for the seven spears book because I don't think they'll be there long before they hit L10 and I can bring them back in line then. Considering downplaying the district inhabitants and focussing on random encounters and one or two small tribes plus the factions. The aboleth would be a great bad guy I could feel it but couldn't see how to pull it off.
One question: when you say players "fight" projected images what do you mean? They can't hit anything and are destroyed if anything hits them. Presumably they don't have an ac even so how did you play out the "fights"?
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I'm glad you like it! And now for pedantry and way too much talking.
Actually, according to the illusion rules, figments have an AC of 10+their size modifier, while shadow spells are partially real.
Just grabbing a standard Aboleth, as I don't have my pdfs or books handy, persistant image, programmed image, project image, and veil are all shadow or figment spells, granting them a kind of AC.
Mirage Arcana isn't a figment, it's a glamour, but it also includes tactile sensation. What does that mean? It means if you it it, it feels like you hit it, even though you didn't. It can't cause damage (not even non-lethal damage), but it can cause momentary pain.
Hypnotic pattern is a pretty great crowd-control spell, allowing its minions (who should be there, at least at first) some chances to get a few hits off.
Although not fighting the illusions, the aboleth's mucus cloud ability and worse, its slime ability, could be really, really bad if inflicted on players.
Here's the big thing about Project Image, the gear given to the Yoggie, and it's CR. He wasn't very well made.
It's gear is worth, what, 12-13k if I recall?
A typical amount of treasure for a CR 12 encounter (that's him, right?) is only 9k (unless you're using the fast track - in which case it might just about equal the amount).
So they grossly exceeded the normal treasure limits him a bunch of treasure to... grant him something like a +4 to +5 to his AC? As an illusionist? Whaaaaaaaaa...? The PCs should never be near him. And once they are, it doesn't matter anyway, as he's either fleeing or dead.
So anyway, change what he's got on him to something useful.
Since project image allows you to cast spells with touch or greater range, give him magic items that allow him to cast spells at touch or greater range... and then have him cast spells at touch or greater range!
13k is one second level spell (CL 3) at will. Or better yet, use four of that 13k to grant him a constant mage armor and constant shield spell, netting him a total of +8 to his AC (better than they gave him), and use the other 9k to nab yourself some nice spell-casting items.
Take a look at second level arcane spells. I mean haunting mist, invisibility, and mirror image can make the shadow-projection a mean combatant... and if his staff keeps whiffing, well, you know, it's because he's a mage. So what if he doesn't deal much damage? Hah! The rube. The PCs totally have him on the ropes. Totally. Yeah.
But beyond that, if you want him to be really annoying without getting into direct damage, you've got unnatural lust, hideous laughter, daze monster, web, glitterdust, blindness/deafness, and so on.
For direct damage, there's scorching ray, burning gaze, stone call, and frost fall.
Give him a bunch of (really cheap) use-activated, but charged (with less-than-full charges) magic items, perhaps with limited uses-per-day for extra discounts, and you've suddenly got a really powerful, really dangerous creature.
For the curious:
{[2k x spell level x CL (use the minimum CL)]/5 x [uses per day]}/2
That will create an item that can be used 50 times, with a limited number of uses/day. This is really inexpensive.
Since our mastermind won't be using all the charges in this battle, and he's probably used them before, and we don't care full charges, just reduce the number of charges remaining (in other words, if you want, say, 25 charges instead of 50) for a proportionate amount of the cost (25 is half of 50, so the cost is half).
If you actually want the item to be at-will, the formula is different:
[2k x spell level x CL (use the minimum CL)])
If you want the item uses/day, but limitless over time, the formula is:
[2k x spell level x CL (use the minimum CL)/5 x [uses per day]}]
If you want the item to have a maximum of 50 uses total, but no limit/day, the formula is:
[2k x spell level x CL (use the minimum CL)]/2
If you want to ensure the limited utility of the items, you could always generate special requirements that the PCs don't meet: being a aboleth named Yog'oltha, for example, and/or have a certain amount of ranks in spellcraft, swim, and some Aboleth-specific knowledge; perhaps the ability to speak Aklo. The item might look garish (what looks "good" to an aboleth anyway?), might cause skin color to change, and might cool the area around it (a boon in Mwangi!) or heat it up (a big curse!) by 10 degrees. Maybe these items are intrinsically tied to Savinth-Yhi - they only function within the energy of the city's preservative field.
Maybe the items only function underwater - certainly not a curse to Aboleths, though it could be difficult for the PCs to get full use out them... except, of course, they could always trade them into their faction for "credit", gaining reputation, skill, and financial credit without worrying about carrying coins. Or maybe they invest in the UMD skill and rock this stuff.
(It's worth noting, that it may have come here with some idea that this stuff existed here. The aboleths once manipulated parts of Azlant, and there could easily have been a "cult" of "followers" or "sleeper agents" here at that time, perhaps making useful tools for their masters that all others would consider worthless or failed magic items.)
Anyway, that's one way of handling it.
Do note, however, that if you have crafters, and you allow this kind of thing to generate a "discount", it's quite possible those crafters will want to do the same thing. In which case, you can either allow it (but that runs the risk of greatly swelling their WBL) or you can explain that only certain traditions know the "secret" of doing so - and that while they PC can begin researching the techniques, it's going to be years before they can purposefully craft a single one (put a skill requirement, a story feat or story award, or something similar to "learn" a single component, as an example). Or you could just say, "no" or come up with some other idea.
Hope that helps!
That's really, really helpful advice, which I am digesting. And fits with my 'has hoard of fancy loot from Saventh Yhi for the players if and only if they actually defeat him.
And since there will be plenty of dominated monsters doing his archaeology in random places I can explain some of the lack of loot elsewhere, which will motivate the players further to find out who is spiriting away 'their' loot. Maybe I will up his loot a bit more, give him a stack of 10 discoveries or something in a dry cave nearby. They likely won't complete the discovery race until book 4, so that will be a nice boost that might clinch the race if they get that far.
After partially digesting (I will be doing more reading), I have more questions on the RAW interpretations on those illusions (I am not a stickler for RAW at all, I just like to know if I'm breaking rules so I can do it consistently):
Project Image (figment, shadow)
May be a shadow illusion but it specifically says it is intangible. "The projected image looks, sounds, and smells like you but is intangible". So if its intangible, it can't inflict momentary pain won't have AC, surely? And when you say momentary pain what are we talking about? Describing 'near misses' or actual illusionary stabbings? I'm interested in how the mechanics of the fight work to make the *players* believe it's a real fight beyond the first round of each 'wave' of illusionary monsters.
Programmed Image (figment, definitely has AC)
Can do "thermal" so could presumably do an illusory fireball that 'just misses' but causes a blast of heat that makes players keep their heads down? But again, doesn't say it does tactile.
Only Mirage Arcana (glamer)
From my reading of the spell is tactile but I read that as a landscape changing spell, it specifically says it cannot add creatures. So it can't be the source of AC capable minions, it has to be programmed image. Which is fine but see above. I can see uses for that like concealing it's lair further, making it look like a festering weed filled shallow pool (which of course only lasts till someone wades in it because it can't bear weight), or making it look like the gully is simply blocked by landslip, which will work unless the PCs feel there's a reason to try to climb over it.
Last question (I'm probably lying about that):
I don't think I saw in your post here or in the other thread though - how do you have him move around the city safely in order to dominate (and refresh his domination over) creatures?
He has to do it every few weeks at least per creature dominated, or he has to seek new creatures to dominate. He only needs telepathic contact once/day to keep it going to its maximum duration, but 17 days later it runs out. So whether he renews on the same creatures or picks new ones, he has to move around the city and he is a BIG fish. He's not going to be moving through only partially subsided and submerged streets even, not at full speed. Only the true water ways - canals and lake, really sunken parts (like parts of mercantile) and parts of the river, are going to be big enough to let him swim freely.
Do I simply assume he uses illusions (or his new shiny gear) to move around unseen, creating distractions and hiding, in order to overcome his speed issues? Or is there some way he can do all his dominating remotely? Maybe I should have him out and about occasionally, but give him a ring of fly 3/day for quick getaways...
Oh, I know - I could just not worry about it! D'oh! He only has to come out every couple of weeks, and he can just wait for something to come past, right? If I roll him on the random encounter chart he can just hide from them or cause a distraction, escaping and leaving them wondering what all that was about, or it might not even be him they encounter - it could just be a group of dominated archaeological slaves, or whatever. I mean, really he only has to dominate a leader of a group and give it a plausible reason and the group will do its work without the domination, right?
wait wait hang on - you are suggesting using items to cast touch/greater range spells via the projected image? Is that ok?
I mean, it says 'any spell YOU cast', are items you use counted as YOU casting the spells? They don't use your caster level, so aren't the cast by the object, not you? If I let that work, surely the party wizard will want to be able to do the same thing when they are capable of casting L7 wizard spells.
I'm not sure I like the idea of the party's wizard hiding outside encounter X with a wand of fireballs in his hand, laying waste to whats inside with an invulnerable illusion, which will only get MORE believable with each very real fireball it lands unless something gets close enough to take a swing at it!
That's not to say I won't give him new items - they'll be useful if players do eventually penetrate his illusions. I totted the items up by the way, they're worth about 9K not 13K. But that was from memory, so I forgive you. I can still make some limited /day permanent items with that, having seen the formula.
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Hah! That's what going from memory gets me. :)
Anyway, now to answer some of the (forgive the paraphrase). Spoiled to make the post shorter and more digestible.
shadow illusion specifically says it's intangible. "The projected image looks, sounds, and smells like you but is intangible". Since its intangible, it can't inflict momentary pain won't have AC, surely? And when you say momentary pain what are we talking about? Describing 'near misses' or actual illusory stabbings? I'm interested in how the mechanics of the fight work to make the *players* believe it's a real fight beyond the first round of each 'wave' of illusory monsters.
You are correct. My statement above was more meant as an "empowering" idea - that of the fact that "it's partially real" so it can "have a kind of AC". The fact that it moves means it fundamentally acts with your own dexterity score (or, if you prefer, your own mental casting stat) - it just has no method of interacting with the real world unless you cast spells through it.
However, I'm not really talking about project image. I'm talking about veil. Veil notes, "The subjects look, feel, and smell just like the creatures the spell makes them resemble." In other words, it includes tactile sensations.
What's interesting about that is that the project image may be intangible, but it also notes, "The projected image can't cast any spells on itself except for illusion spells." which, of course, includes veil, allowing the projection to suddenly look and feel like, say, a froghemoth, serpentfolk, or even... an aboleth. This grants it an AC, and allows it to react to combat situations.
Does that allow it to, say, make unarmed attacks, or strike with an illusory staff? I dunno. It's unclear. I would say "it doesn't cause damage", but since it feels like it, it could fool the player into thinking that it might - in fact, you could even tell the player that damage is caused, though none actually is (though it's important in this case for you to keep a secret tally of the "damage" they've taken from the illusion - if and when they get to the point that they should be unconscious, and they're not... that could be a pretty big tip-off).
This brings out one of the best elements of illusions: they're worthless on their own, and are easily defeated.
Well, of course, that's not entirely true, but give me a moment to explain.
The best way to use illusions is to throw in more illusions. Layer them. And when you've got several layers of "reality", the PCs (or, if a PC is the illusionist, the villains) eventually can no longer can tell reality from falsehood. It's the ability to layer on deception upon deception and cause people to run into real doom that makes them so powerful. Thus, even if someone sees through one illusion, two illusions, three illusions, and so on, at what point do they start failing saves, but acting as if things are illusions anyway? That's probably going to happen... in which case, that's when you spring real traps on them.
On the other hand, if they balk when they start failing saves... you've still won, because, ultimately, they don't know what they can or can't trust, and your illusions are still potent, and can harry and harass them.
Programmed image an do "thermal" (so presumably an illusory fireball that 'just misses' and causes a blast of heat that makes players keep their heads down), but again, doesn't say it does tactile.
Again, "fake potential damage" at play here, rather than straight up "fake damage". Programmed image allows you to create anything within its bounds, so a sudden wall of fire (probably better than a fireball!) or wall of ice to keep people at bay could be a genuine life-saver... for the illusion. Especially if it's triggered to short "arcane-sounding" phrases, making the spell look quickened - and making the character seem ever-more-menacing, even though it doesn't have that power in reality. This gives them a much healthier respect for him than he deserves... generating a position deserving of healthy respect!
From my reading of mirage arcana, it's tactile but, as a landscape changing spell, it specifically says it can't add creatures. So it can't be the source of AC capable minions. Which is fine but see above. I can see uses like: concealing it's lair further or making it look like the gully is simply blocked by landslip (both of which have limits).
Ah, but that's only the beginning. It can't create creatures, and it can't make creatures "invisible" if within a direct line of sight, but it can conceal creatures ().
So, granting concealment is great! Granting concealment in a marshy fen filled with razor-weeds, thorn-cyprus, and slicer-mangos? Even better! And, of course, this is all non-damaging, but it's tactile, meaning that they feel it, even if it really does nothing. How can it grant concealment? By being so heavily choked with undergrowth that they can't even see the creature who (because, illusion rules the creator can see through it) can freely snipe them at will with effects that they can't see where it's coming from. (Incidentally, this is the best way if you're not comfortable with allowing the Aboleth to cast items through its projected, to handle that sort of thing.) And cutting through the stuff takes time and is uncomfortable anyway.
()
Similarly, it can't grant cover, or negate line of effect, but it can interrupt line of sight!
How does it move around the city safely in order to dominate (and refresh its domination over) creatures?
You partially answer this yourself. But I'm talky, so I'm going to expound on it.
It has been somewhat limited by the fact that it can’t physically explore much of the city — it can explore the sunken ruins well enough, and can use project image to explore and observe regions within sight of the water’s edge, but its exploration of the interior has been limited to second-hand information gathered by dominated slaves.
The fact is, it mostly just stealthily (via illusion) explores some of the waterways, uses its project image to explore land, and opportunistically dominates whatever it comes across. And it can move on land in the same way, just slowly.
Since it doesn't habitually keep anything but the gibbering mouthers dominated, you don't have to worry about it (its slaves probably die relatively often in this city) - it might even be loosely known a kind of "Savinth-Yhi Madness" that overcomes those who spend too much time near the water or "the Vanishings" or something, while many of the disappearances are almost certainly blamed on the dangerous nature of the city at large.
First, it's got to receive the archeology they do somehow. That entails face-to-face meetings. Thus it commands them to come near to the water's edge or to his sacred pool. (He gets rid of unwanted slaves by feeding them to the gibbering mouthers, or never bringing them near its pool.)
Second, Yoggie can simply order them anywhere at any time, then meet them, and refresh its domination.
Third, he can have his current dupes go... "recruiting". If they are subservient to his will, they will be glad to put their lives on the line to bring him potential slaves. If he dominates those slaves, then free new slaves. If he doesn't, than free food for his current slaves.
Finally (sort of), he can "time" his domination abilities carefully. If he successfully forces the dominated creature into "always accepting the domination" or something similar (perhaps disguised by his bluff check to make it not seem like its against their nature) than he can just refresh it without worry or hassle. Since dominate monster lasts for 1 day per level, and he's sixteenth caster level, he can hold a creature for 16 days. Since he can dominate three creatures per day, that's a whopping total of 48 creatures he can have dominated on any given day (minus four for the gibbering mouthers and minus one more for the boggard). If he dominates charismatic and powerful leader-types, as you say, he has even more sway. And, of course, if he dominates something else that dominates (or otherwise manipulates)... well, he suddenly has much more power. Egzimora (pg 34) has both suggestion and charm person. That's two methods of manipulation that allows him to use her as a cat's-paw, as it were. Her control is not as fine, but it certainly multiplies his potential power and influence. Akarundo (pg 30) is a Rakshasa who also has charm and suggestion, thus multiplying his power even more.
What might be interesting is having Akarundo "dominated" repeatedly by way of his expensive habits - while he's "high" on opium, serpentfolk "suppliers" get him some, and take advantage of his fatigued and wisdom-damaged state to dominate him ("accepting the pleasure wash over him"). Egzimora, on the other hand, is probably fed a steady supply of "victims" and is "communing with some power" (or some such nonsense created by Yogertudinal) to, "help her research" or maybe,
"help her outfox the rakshasa".
In any event, Yogservatious likely keeps them at slight odds for its own interests (i.e. not quiet open conflict so their minions work together for it, but distaste for each other so they can never ally and become more powerful than it).
Ugimmo is its current in-canon dupe (pg 29). Ugimmo is an oracle of bones, and has animate dead as a spell and 750 gold-worth of onyx (translating to a potential whopping 30 HD of undead). If Ugimmo runs away, then he will likely join up with Yoggie*. That means that Yog-face can easily have lots of undead monsters at its side.
Of course, if Ugimmo doesn't survive, that's going to be trickier. Instead, I'd suggest that you give Yoggie some sort of "control amulet" that allows it to command undead a certain amount of times per day (or possibly in accordance with the above elements). You can have the already-zombies or already-skeletons floating in the pool (bonus points if it looks like piranha did it to your players), or hidden in the clefts of the wall around the pool area. Thus, you can give him minions even without his minion-maker being there. (Bonus points if it only works for aquatic aberrations... like the Green God... or Sir Yogsalot.) You might want two treasure parcels - one presuming the Yogginator has the command thing, and one presuming he doesn't.
Of course, as well, you don't have to have them under its command. If they're told to "lie still", and then "rise and attack any living thing they see when they hear 'attack'" Yogurt doesn't even have to have direct control over them! They're still affected by illusions, after all!
Anyway, all that grants him enormous sway across the city - subtle sway that means he's not very visible except by way of the oddly associating creatures doing archaeology. Especially if he dominates high-charisma bluff-trained critters who bluff to act like they're not dominated (which is otherwise just a DC 15 sense motive check). Of course, such bluffs inevitably are put in different terms that make sense to the dominated creature so it never realizes it's dominated (a bluff check of Yogination's own).
Otherwise, you pretty much covered this one yourself, perfectly!
Project Image says 'any spell you cast'; are items you use counted as "you" casting the spells, or since they don't use your caster level, are they cast by the object? Also, the party wizard will want to be able to do the same thing once capable of casting project image, which I'm not sure I like.
That's a good question. I had run it that way, but I wasn't sure, so I looked it up, under two searches. Even a search (or two) with magic items casting spells! The results were disappointingly vague. You might want to make a thread in the Rules Questions - if it's come up before and I'm just missing it, people will likely link you to it quickly.
Now, that out of the way, let's talk about making it work, and making it work for you.
I'm of the opinion that if something functions for NPCs, it should also function for PCs... presuming they jump through the same hoops to get there as the NPCs. In other words, the only thing stopping a PC from becoming a lich is the fact that the PC isn't evil, isn't willing to engage in murder, and doesn't have all the gold necessary to do so. Presuming a PC can get over those limits, he or she can do what they want (though, as noted in the lich entry, it takes lots of time and research).
Similarly, I utilize slight variants on spells and spell-like abilities. Compare them to cars: all "off-road" type vehicles have lots of similarities, but different companies still make them differently.
Same thing with spells and spell-likes, only with even more personal variation. Some of this comes from personal power. Some of this comes from specific variants researched or discovered by the creature.
If you want the NPC to be able to do something, but the PC not, then have the NPC have researched (and/or self-trained, as we're dealing with a spell-like ability) the variant version. (This is especially doable, since you're not dealing with a wizard, you're dealing with a spell-like ability.)
Thus, the PC can probably get access to the basic version somewhere down the road, but the "advanced" version of the same spell is like creating a car - you've got to pay more, go through more hoops, do more research, and do an awful lot more work in general to get that slight (but better) variant. And, by that time in their careers, the PCs are likely to be way too busy to allow the wizard all the leisurely research that such a thing requires. It's allowable within the campaign setting, but the PC just doesn't have the time.
Also, bear in mind, the primary enemies the wizard is going up against by that point? Moderate level serpentfolk and monstrously skilled outsiders - two creatures likely able to punch through the illusions, as the former are immune to mind-affecting affects, and the latter are just vicious and crazy.
The other thing to do about this, is to make the spells the Aboleth uses the sort that are not obvious where they come from - Stone Call and Frost Fall are practically perfect for this.
Of course, I like letting my PCs get their hands on uberpowers. I'm totally okay with that. So, you know, that's a big difference in our comfort zones... which is totally okay!
That's not to say I won't give him new items - they'll be useful if players do eventually penetrate his illusions. I totted the items up by the way, they're worth about 9K not 13K. But that was from memory, so I forgive you. I can still make some limited /day permanent items with that, having seen the formula.
Cool, and sorry for the wrong value. I was pretty sure, though...
Let's see: amulet of natural armor +1 (2k), ring of force shield (8.5k), and ring of protection +1 (2k). That's [2 + 8.5 + 2 = 12.5]... roughly 13,000 gold value. Where am I going wrong (aside from rounding up 500g worth of stuff)?
Also, since mage armor lasts so long, he can afford to have it only a few times per day, saving some serious money there - after all, he's not likely to get into a fight much at all (that's what his minions are for). Shield is on a much shorter time-frame, so it'll cost more money over-all, to have it readily available. Still, even if the two were at-will, that's 4,000 gold total (2k each, by way of the formula), meaning that it's a pretty solid investment one way or the other for the guy. Don't make them continuous, however - that will rev their expensive factor up by a huge margin. Having to cast shield every once in a while is far superior to paying double the cost for a very similar benefit.
EDIT: Actually, upon re-reading it, it's only double cost for shield. Make mage armor continuous all you want! :D
Anyway, I'm sorry for my habit of walls of text and excessive words. It's... how I'm built. (After all, I would be a god of talking!)
I do try and keep it down, sometimes, but... it's difficult to fully answer questions without doing so! My apologies!
***
** Only if you actually have a ranger in your party.***
*** Don't really do this. It's a joke.
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I think I will disallow spells cast by items. But he will get those if he faces the Players personally, so that's fine.
I like the idea of illusionary damage. At zero I think rather than being knocked out they will be incapacitated by pain, giving them a chance to disbelieve again especially if it becomes clear that no one is actually passing out at zero. Plus they get a chance to disbelieve every time they take damage ("interacting"). Eventually they will see through the illusion. That illusion anyway and poof! All healed! But they are "at will" illusions so along comes the next one...
Yeah..I see how this works now.
On prices - my bad. Read the 8.5 as 6.5 and I'm sure one of those items was listed at 1k. But you're right and I was posting after midnight so...
Thank you so much this is great stuff.
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Hahahah! Well, I'm glad I was helpful!
I think I will disallow spells cast by items. But he will get those if he faces the Players personally, so that's fine.
A fine decision, one way or the other. :)
I like the idea of illusionary damage. At zero I think rather than being knocked out they will be incapacitated by pain, giving them a chance to disbelieve again especially if it becomes clear that no one is actually passing out at zero. Plus they get a chance to disbelieve every time they take damage ("interacting"). Eventually they will see through the illusion. That illusion anyway and poof! All healed! But they are "at will" illusions so along comes the next one...
Yeah..I see how this works now.
Good! That's the thing with illusions - they're not really all that powerful on their own, but that weakness is also a strength, when blended with other illusions, because by the time you begin peeling away layers upon layers... at which point do you just believe things are all illusory? And at what point does that belief come back to harm you?
It's all in how they're used.
As far as how I ran it... ultimately, it wasn't as vicious as it could be, because the PCs had recruited NPC help, and really the action-economy thing came into play. You can read how the encounter went - it was awesome, and memorable (and frustrating when some of them thought he'd escaped... making it more triumphant when they guessed right that he was still in the water). Also, bear in mind, in addition to the undead I listed above, I also added a water elemental.
An any event, I hope it's great!
On prices - my bad. Read the 8.5 as 6.5 and I'm sure one of those items was listed at 1k. But you're right and I was posting after midnight so...
Nah, it's not a problem. I could easily have been wrong somewhere, too! You probably got the 1k from reading the cost instead of the price... easy to do! And, as a dyslexic with ADD, I entirely understand how things can be read incorrectly. :)
Thank you so much this is great stuff.
I'm glad it's helpful! That's what I really like to do! :D
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Thanks Tacticslion for all these great tips. When you wrote about crafting, one thing to remember is that if you craft a wondrous item with all sorts of restrictions (like must be a NG half-elf to use an item) it does not reduce the Cost for crafting, it only reduces the Market price or Sell price.
I think the Aboleth's best offensive spell remains Dominate Monster (DC 23). That's his thing.
His lair of layered illusions is there to give it time to cast them. What is interesting is that the caster can see through all of his Illusory Walls but even if some else manages to succeed a will save (which is a standard action for probing or testing the wall) they still wouldn't see through the illusions. Combined that with a swim of 60', it gives the Aboleth a huge tactical advantage because it can cast through it all and still swim to another location.
The Aboleth would have had years to plan for all sorts of events
First let's assume that you have a few minor sea creatures dominated in an encounter area within this illusory lair. Also, you succeeded on a Dominate Monster on one of the PCs.
Then the Aboleth directs his new slave to this encounter area. Once there, the aboleth casts Veil on the sea creatures and the dominated PC. You could change the appearance of the sea creatures into the other remaining PCs and change the appearance of the dominated PC into the aboleth. OR change the sea creatures into copies of the dominated PC and the dominated PC into some fiendish looking creature. OR some other combination. In short you want to add to the confusion and create an encounter between the PCs. Also because it's sounds like a cool encounter.
Once the battle starts you can throw some Hypnotic Pattern into the mix. Or more Dominates.
Also, there is bound to be a PC who is slower underwater then others, Any PC who takes 1 round extra to reach a particular area could get singled out by the Aboleth. One-on-One, the Aboleth should be a worthy opponent. He would have a decent Grapple enough to drag one of the PCs away from the rest.
Excellent points and ideas all-round, Mapelwood!
Thanks Tacticslion for all these great tips. When you wrote about crafting, one thing to remember is that if you craft a wondrous item with all sorts of restrictions (like must be a NG half-elf to use an item) it does not reduce the Cost for crafting, it only reduces the Market price or Sell price.
That's a good point. The major reason I noted what I did the way I did was because they were worth less than the standard value - something that some GMs want to be true for the cost, too. Thus the "if" - I didn't mean to say that they should, so much as, if you want it to.
But you are entirely correct - normally, it doesn't alter the cost of crafting the item.
On the aboleth's tactics, one of the most interesting things he can do is use his mucus cloud and slime abilities to their full advantage - attempting to kill PCs by straight-up bull-rushing them out of the water, which they need to breathe, now. If a PC doesn't know this, it could be very deadly.
Of course, you may want to give them good hints!