When you think of "rogue" characters in fantasy and sci-fi, characters such as Batman, Han Solo, Alladin and so on come to mind. Characters who could hold their own in a fight, yet were also quite skilled. While the Pathfinder rogue does manage to be skilled, it is not effective in combat. Sneak attack is a poor mechanic for combat, and rogues have a hard time hitting things without serious magical buffing. To help out my players who want to enjoy rogues I am working on a rogue replacement that will use new unique mechanics, along with some things borrowed from Rangers and Gunslingers. Tell me what you guys think, and how I can balance this better.
Rogue
Hit Die: d10
Starting Wealth: 4d6 × 10 gp (average 140 gp.) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.
The rogue's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 8 + Int modifier.
Saves: Good reflex saves
1st level abilities
Sneak Attack: When attacking an enemy unaware of the Rogue, as a standard action the Rogue may make a Sneak Attack. This Sneak Attack deals double damage. At 6th, 11th, and 16th levels, this damage's multiplier increases by 1, to a maximum of 5 times normal damage. Strength, and other bonuses to damage multiplied on a critical hit are also multiplied. A Sneak Attack may be done with either a ranged or melee weapon, but has a maximum range of 30 feat.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment. Creatures that are immune to precision damage are immune to Sneak Attack.
Levels in other classes that provide sneak attack dice do not provide additional sneak attack dice to a rogue and instead contribute two levels towards a Rogue’s Sneak Attack ability for every sneak attack die added.
Scoundrel: Rogues are skilled at using underhanded tactics. A rogue receives a morale bonus on all Stealth and Sleight of Hand checks equal to 1/2 their Rogue level (minimum +1).
Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
2nd level abilities
Evasion: A rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Dodge: A rogue can choose to avoid one melee or ranged attack per round as an immediate action by making an Acrobatics check with a DC equal to the melee or ranged attack's roll. Dodge can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Nimble:Starting at 2nd level, a Rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC while wearing light or no armor. Anything that causes the Rogue to lose her Dexterity bonus to AC also causes the Rogue to lose this dodge bonus. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd level (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level).
Rogue Talent: As a rogue gains experience, she learns a number of talents that aid her and confound her foes. Starting at 2nd level, a rogue gains one rogue talent. She gains an additional rogue talent for every 2 levels of rogue attained after 2nd level. A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once.
3rd level abilities
Trap Sense: A rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level. Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.
4th level abilities
Uncanny Dodge: A rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
8th level abilities
Improved Uncanny Dodge: A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.
This defense denies another creature with sneak attack the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.
If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
10th level abilities
Advanced Talents: At 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a rogue can choose one of the following advanced talents in place of a rogue talent.
20th level abilities
Master Strike: Upon reaching 20th level, a rogue becomes incredibly deadly when dealing sneak attack damage. Each time the rogue deals sneak attack damage, she can choose one of the following three effects:
The target can be...
• put to sleep for 1d4 hours
• paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or
• slain
Regardless of the effect chosen, the target receives a Fortitude save to negate the additional effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + the rogue's Intelligence or Dexterity modifier. Once a creature has been the target of a master strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that rogue's master strike for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to this ability.
New Talents
New rogue talents:
• Suave: Gain half your level to Diplomacy and Bluff checks
• Swift Acrobat: Ignore penalties to acrobatics checks for distance moved
• Jump ‘em!: Gain +1 to initiative every 4 levels. This bonus is doubled if you can act in the surprise round.
New Advanced Talents:
• Hide in Plain Sight: Gain Hide in Plain Sight as an Assassin
Changes to Talents
Talents that previously provided bonuses to sneak attack based upon the rogue’s sneak attack dice now base their effect on the rogue’s level, effectively doubling their effect in exchange for the now limited methods of sneak attacking. Talents that provide bonuses to sneak attack without being based upon sneak attack have their bonuses doubled as well. In other words:
Bleeding Attack causes a rogue’s level in bleed damage.
Crippling Strike does 4 strength damage.
Other talents are basically made useless and void, such as powerful sneak as sneak attack dice do not exist for this class.
Hit Die: this change really isn't needed. Batman is probably a ranger with favored enemy human and Han Solo never demonstrated the great degree of physical endurance a d10 HD would convey. Don't know enough about Aladdin to offer anything one way or another there.
Sneak Attack: I'll be honest, I don't like this. It means you can't sneak attack on an attack of opportunity OR during a full attack. Sure, the damage is more reliable, but it becomes boring fairly quickly as this is really just 'Vital Strike Plus'. Kirth did some things with his homebrew rogue at later levels that added extra conditions on which a rogue could land sneak attack.
Scoundrel: This is neat. Not sure what it's fixing or why it might be needed, but it isn't a bad concept.
Dodge: This is really, REALLY good. You're basically talking about Snake Style Plus here, but every single rogue EVERYWHERE gets it. Not that that's a bad thing in theory, but if the rogue can use this on everything from a titan's axe blow to a wizard's Disintegrate ray, I have to wonder why any melee combatant would NOT put points into Acrobatics and take a 2-level dip into Rogue.
Nimble: This actually makes perfect sense. I mean, why should gunslingers get it and not rogues? It scales with level, but slowly, and it's thematically appropriate.
Master Strike: Being able to choose Int or Dex isn't bad, though I can see Paizo not giving the rogue the option due to how good Dex is already.
Suave: Probably a bit too good for a talent; decrease the bonus or make it two separate talents, one per skill.
Swift Acrobat: The advanced talent Fast Tumble already does this.
Jump ‘em!: This is cool, I like this.
Hide in Plain Sight: Not needed, they already get this in one terrain type as an advanced talent. Giving the rogue the option to pick up this ability 7 levels earlier than a ranger AND in all environments is a bit of a slap in the face to that class.
Changes to Talents: This will wreck the ever loving crap out of the Offensive Defense talent. Just saying, a +level dodge bonus to AC isn't exactly balanced when that can be done almost every single round.
I have been making changes to this class based on suggestions from other sources. It can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14QyL0QrkoyWppHtAqCE-R-JdIjed3qjnO3vyOww d7d4/edit
To address your current feedback:
The HD change was intended to give the Rogue full BAB due to the problems a rogue has hitting things and dealing damage when it cannot sneak attack.
A lot of other people I showed this to liked the sneak attack. It made more sense to them for it to be one giant hit than to be tons of piddly hits. It can also deal lots of strength damage now. Should I add another rogue talent that lets the rogue sneak attack on a riposte?
Scoundrel is fixing the fact that despite being the "stealthy guy" the rogue is not actually better at stealth. In fact there is an inquisitor inquisition that grants half your level to stealth.
Dodge is really good. I moved it to 3rd level. Do you think 4th level will work better? I may tone it down to only be "As many dodges as your dexterity modifier per combat." But I am not sure yet.
Master Strike honestly needed a buff. Especially with how situational I made Sneak Attacking. The old rogue could potentially full attack with it. This rogue cannot, so it needs the strength buff.
As for the very strong rogue talents:
These were balanced considering Barbarian Rage Powers. Barbarian Rage powers are so good that you will take a feat for them. The current good rogue talents often give you feats. Barbarians have rage powers that give them a bonus = their level. Therefore Rogue talents could feasibly give a bonus = level or a 2 bonuses = 1/2 level. Barbarian rage powers can give pounce. So getting the social equivalent of pounce (ridiculously good diplomacy and bluff) sounds about right.
Getting hide in plain sight early was on purpose because this class relies on stealth more than a Ranger to do its tricks. I could put a 12th level requirement on it though. That way it would get it closer to when an Assassin gets it.
Offensive defense will not be doable every round due to how hard it is to get subsequent sneak attacks off. The foe must be unaware of you.
I don't see any problems giving rogues the ability to be good at skills.
So many other classes get in class bonuses to skills, why should the rogue, AKA the quintessential skill monkey, be worse at skills?
Currently the biggest problem I see is that sneak attack forces you to be power attacking with a 2 hander to be useful.
Suggestion: If 2 weapon fighting allow each hand to do damage
I think if you made the dodge bonus dex+rogue lvl it would mitigate the dipping and encourage more rogue lvls.
Only gave it a once over, but this looks pretty good.
Hit dice and BAB were fine before, I think. I would prefer a medium BAB warrior who seeks to exploit an enemy to gain attack bonuses that put him on par with a front line warrior.
Sneak Attack: you are harkening back to the age of Back Stab, I believe? Again, I prefer a warrior who tricks or gets the drop on someone and tears them to bits, rather that one with guaranteed damage. Thats what meat shields do. I really, really like the triggers for conventional Sneak Attack.
Scoundrel/Trapfinding: How about instead of these, make a half dozen or more "skill specialties". Trapfinder, Scout, Thug, Thief, Con Man, Magician, Diplomat, etc. that the rogue chooses at first level - just one. That dictates the two skills he gets +1/2 level to. Trap finding is included to honor tradition, but I see no need to force it on rogues who want a boost.
Nimble, I like. Fits thematically. Dodge, I would drop. You're now asking every rogue to max out Acrobatics. Besides, with Evasion and Rogue talents, 2nd level is awfully crowded.
Trap Sense I have always had mixed feelings about. Its thematic, but doesn't make much of a difference. Its a tiny bump. At this point, Nimble is almost doing the job of Trap Finding. In anything, Trap Sense should something like "Once per day per three level, roll twice pick the better result". Or, replace it with an increase to initiative. Also, after the onslaught of 2nd level abilities, 3rd is looking pretty light.
Ciaran, maybe the Inquisitor is more what you're looking for.
i think Hide in Plain Sight as a 'regular' advanced talent is totally fair.
i rewrote basic and advanced rogue talents a short while back. curious your input if you have time.
I have not had the time to read the advanced talents you posted so far, but man those normal talents are nice! I would happily let my players use those in my games.
I think if you made the dodge bonus dex+rogue lvl it would mitigate the dipping and encourage more rogue lvls.
Good point. Probably need to custom make a feat to be like Skill focus acrobatics to give players the option of buffing it. Thanks for the suggestion!
I don't see any problems giving rogues the ability to be good at skills.
So many other classes get in class bonuses to skills, why should the rogue, AKA the quintessential skill monkey, be worse at skills?
Currently the biggest problem I see is that sneak attack forces you to be power attacking with a 2 hander to be useful.
Suggestion: If 2 weapon fighting allow each hand to do damage
Good point on two weapon fighting. We all know that option already gets no love.
EDIT: Seems the Link does not work: http://tinyurl.com/ma7zzls