I don't really pay much attention to the environmentalist movement becuase, well, it bores me to tears, so I have to admit that I didn't spend much time following Fukushima. Anyway, I missed this, so maybe you missed it, too:
Ex-Japanese PM on How Fukushima Meltdown was Worse Than Chernobyl & Why He Now Opposes Nuclear Power
Not that it's really on-topic. Not that much in this thread is.
Mostly the third.First, you'll notice that I never seconded HD's characterization of posters on these boards, "leftie" or otherwise.
Second, you'll notice that I said there were two leftists on these boards, not none.
Third, you'll notice that HD always put "leftie" in quotation marks. Presumably because he doesn't think you're real leftists.
No true Scotsman...
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm relatively left wing. I think I'm the only Democrat that hd kinda likes. I have unwritten assurances that I will be killed near-last in any goblin communist uprisings. I disagree with Kirth on stuff, which is interesting more often than not.
I really like Freehold DM, the guy who made sure I wasn't mugged or murdered by any sorority girls running their chihuahuas down 14th ave.
I don't like any groups. Just individuals.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
No true Scotsman...Mostly the third.First, you'll notice that I never seconded HD's characterization of posters on these boards, "leftie" or otherwise.
Second, you'll notice that I said there were two leftists on these boards, not none.
Third, you'll notice that HD always put "leftie" in quotation marks. Presumably because he doesn't think you're real leftists.
Dude, the system is so whack, and the bureaucracy so entrenched and jealous of its survival, that it would take a majority in both houses of honest men and a president willing to buck to make any meaningful change. Ain't gonna happen. The only fallacy at work is that you people think the system works and is "for the people". We live in a surveillance police state controlled by corporate and financial interests through PACs, Super PACs, lobbying, and straight out job bribery (you help us do x, we'll hire you at y a year when you leave office/your cabinet position/whatever). (Many examples of all of this exist on the wide world web. Enjoy).
There are specific politicians I have admired through the years, Daniel Patrick Moynihan for one, but the political parties only exist to serve their real constituents, their money backers.
But, sure. The system isn't broken and people aren't just perpetuating the slide into a police state by allowing themselves to be spoon-fed corporate "news" and not bothering to look into anything themselves, and there's a unicorn farting nuggets of sour diesel in my back yard, so I'm just a malcontent whiner and I should take my government authorized cop beating with a smile.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks for telling me what I do and don't believe. I was so unsure before.
there's a unicorn farting nuggets of sour diesel in my back yard.
Now we know you're lying -- it's common knowledge that unicorns fart rainbows and poop sherbet.
No true Scotsman...Mostly the third.First, you'll notice that I never seconded HD's characterization of posters on these boards, "leftie" or otherwise.
Second, you'll notice that I said there were two leftists on these boards, not none.
Third, you'll notice that HD always put "leftie" in quotation marks. Presumably because he doesn't think you're real leftists.
Dude, the system is so whack, and the bureaucracy so entrenched and jealous of its survival, that it would take a majority in both houses of honest men and a president willing to buck to make any meaningful change. Ain't gonna happen. The only fallacy at work is that you people think the system works and is "for the people". We live in a surveillance police state controlled by corporate and financial interests through PACs, Super PACs, lobbying, and straight out job bribery (you help us do x, we'll hire you at y a year when you leave office/your cabinet position/whatever). (Many examples of all of this exist on the wide world web. Enjoy).
There are specific politicians I have admired through the years, Daniel Patrick Moynihan for one, but the political parties only exist to serve their real constituents, their money backers.
But, sure. The system isn't broken and people aren't just perpetuating the slide into a police state by allowing themselves to be spoon-fed corporate "news" and not bothering to look into anything themselves, and there's a unicorn farting nuggets of sour diesel in my back yard, so I'm just a malcontent whiner and I should take my government authorized cop beating with a smile.
you should feed your unicorn better. I'm gonna call the aspcma if you don't.
|
. I would be happy to see more opportunity created via tax cuts linked to specific criteria to make sure it is not abused and increased spending to fix our crumbling infrastructureThis is worse than idle, unevidenced speculation. This is something we have tried and the reality is This. Does. Not. work. This is not opinion, this is not supposition, this is not some touchy feely "its true for you"... its cold hard objective reality. We are already not taxing corporations. They still aren't hiring people. When you are driven entirely by profit the question is not "how many employees can i hire" its "how many employees do I HAVE to hire" to make the most profit.
Yes, it is completely unfair that you get up and go to work every day at a job you hate only to get a lifestyle that's indiscernible from someone scamming welfare. Gods know there were days at work when I thought of shanking someone to wind up on the prison crew for better medical benefits and more rights.
Perhaps the solution should be to change your level of income so that its a real incentive to work rather than a lateral move. Holding people to the fire and waiting for bootstrap levitation doesn't work. We tried it before in the 1920's and it SUCKED. If you want to try the moral argument that we can't tax the rich because that's theft go for it, but don't parrot this malarkey that if we stop stealing the money for the rich Ann Rands utopia world will come to pass.
My thoughts on tax cuts are for encouraging building factories and the like, things that make jobs. if you build a factory do you go where they will tax less to get the benefits of people getting jobs or do you go somewhere that will tax you higher? You think GM would have built where they did if not for the sweet deals they were given on land and taxes? We do not need more service jobs we need manufacturing back if we are going to have any future. I will never say we cannot tax anyone, only that we cannot expect the pockets of a few to support others. Taxation is a necessary evil, but best we do as little evil we can.
|
|
...Wealth inequality is better fixed by making more opportunity for the lower end than punishing the upper end and personal accountability must be part of it.What are these opportunities? Current economic and social thinking of the right does not really talk about creating opportunities. You get talk of the nebulous trickle down effect which somehow allows the poor to get some kind of benefit as the rich get richer. "Personal accountability" suggests the poor are poor because they have not done anything about being not p ty oor.
Here in Australia the new conservative government is going hell for leather to get rid of "onerous" hinderances to business. Red tape and green tape are all evil as they slow down business's ability to operate and grow. Nevermind a lot of this "tape" is there because without it in the past business had happily screwed the environment *, mistreated workers and basically did whatever they want to make a buck and bugger any side effects that came out of increasing their bank balance. One goal of the anti-red tapers is to lower wages, reduce penalty rates, remove various standard conditions relating to health and safety and the like - so business wants to make the "lower end" poorer all in the name of "increased productivity" or various other euphemisms for "reduce costs, increase profits".
Much of the "upper end" doesn't want the "lower end" to become wealthier. Much of the upper end doesn't give the proverbial flying $#@# about the lower end - provided that the lower end exists to do all the crappy jobs the upper end don't want to think about. Those jobs, that is, that have not been outsourced to countries whose lower end is even worse off.
The group in the middle - the middle class - in certain western countries has been progressively getting smaller. Some are luckily now "upper" but most would now be categorised as "lower". Yet other countries, for example those horrible high taxing social
I do not know where you live or what work you do to have it that rough. If you are smart about your choices in life it really sucks that sometimes we can end up like that and i do sympathize, sometimes bad things happen to good people, but your lot in life should not be lumped together with those digging their own grave by choice. Not all poor are there because they make stupid choices, that doesn't change that many do it to themselves and it has nothing to do with race beyond choices made in line with subcultures. I see the cost of housing as one of the biggest issues with being poor personally, it is the bigest expense i worrry about and i feel that it goes a long way into forcing people where they do not want to live and concentrating poverty is just a bad idea all around. Home ownership is becoming a pipe dream for many unless you want houses in places like Flint MI that no one wants.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My thoughts on tax cuts are for encouraging building factories and the like, things that make jobs. if you build a factory do you go where they will tax less to get the benefits of people getting jobs or do you go somewhere that will tax you higher? You think GM would have built where they did if not for the sweet deals they were given on land and taxes? We do not need more service jobs we need manufacturing back if we are going to have any future. I will never say we cannot tax anyone, only that we cannot expect the pockets of a few to support others. Taxation is a necessary evil, but best we do as little evil we can.
First off, the manufacturing boat has already sailed I'm afraid. At least the ones you're likely talking about, rust-belt, Detroit, etc., because it is so far gone that the means of production have depreciated so much that it isn't financially viable (from the corporate perspective, mind you) to maintain/build new factories here. The only way to entice manufacturing jobs back into the US is to pay workers here less than what they do in China, which just ain't happening. The silver lining for manufacturing is that SOME skilled manufacturing will stay here, as opposed to just assembly jobs which are the ones mostly getting "off-shored."
The problem with the tax cut thing is that it quickly becomes a race to the bottom, where states or municipalities compete for the lowest tax rate to entice corporations to hire or set up headquarters there, all that happens is that the corporation keeps most or all of its money. Sometimes they're even GIVEN money or land, or granted exemptions from property taxes, which is why there are so many empty Wal-Marts. The problem is in the individual state system because if said taxes were dictated on a federal level there'd be no juking the tax man. You would probably need interstate collaboration and agreement not to participate in such a race.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My thoughts on tax cuts are for encouraging building factories and the like, things that make jobs
Automation has made factories far more efficient. They do not require as many people as they used to for the same output, and the trend is only going to be for more automation from here on out.
if you build a factory do you go where they will tax less to get the benefits of people getting jobs or do you go somewhere that will tax you higher?
You put it where the costs are lowest, which is china, and isn't going to be the US again in our lifetimes.
1) The labor is cheaper
2) The labor has fewer rights. They can't organize into unions, effectively push for higher wages (changing slowly) or safer conditions. If they do your buddies in the government show up and shoot them. (again, the way we did things in the 20s)
3) They cannot effectively petition the government to change anything.
4) You don't have any environmental regulations. Say what you want about the annoying EPA and big government, the fact is that we're better off with them than without them.
I will never say we cannot tax anyone, only that we cannot expect the pockets of a few to support others.
The richest 400 people in the us have as much wealth as the bottom 100 million. The pockets are deep enough.
Taxation is a necessary evil, but best we do as little evil we can.
Its a necessary annoyance. It is not murder, it is not assault, it is not slavery, it is not theft. Its only a moral issue in so far as it impacts the quality of an individuals life, which is pretty minimal if not non existant for the folks who already have a private island.
I don't know if we need more taxation, or just differently structured taxation. Taxes are supposed to be progressive, as it is they're regressive. (the more you make the lower % you pay)
Reference please?My thoughts on tax cuts are for encouraging building factories and the like, things that make jobs. if you build a factory do you go where they will tax less to get the benefits of people getting jobs or do you go somewhere that will tax you higher? You think GM would have built where they did if not for the sweet deals they were given on land and taxes? We do not need more service jobs we need manufacturing back if we are going to have any future. I will never say we cannot tax anyone, only that we cannot expect the pockets of a few to support others. Taxation is a necessary evil, but best we do as little evil we can.First off, the manufacturing boat has already sailed I'm afraid. At least the ones you're likely talking about, rust-belt, Detroit, etc., because it is so far gone that the means of production have depreciated so much that it isn't financially viable (from the corporate perspective, mind you) to maintain/build new factories here.
The only way to entice manufacturing jobs back into the US is to pay workers here less than what they do in China,Reference please?
which just ain't happening.Reference please?
The silver lining for manufacturing is that SOME skilled manufacturing will stay here,Reference please?
as opposed to just assembly jobs which are the ones mostly getting "off-shored."Reference please?
Reference please?The problem with the tax cut thing is that it quickly becomes a race to the bottom,
where states or municipalities compete for the lowest tax rateReference please?
to entice corporations to hire or set up headquarters there,Reference please?
all that happens is that the corporation keeps most or all of its money.Reference please?
Sometimes they're even GIVEN money or land,Reference please?
or granted exemptions from property taxes,Reference please?
which is why there are so many empty Wal-Marts.Reference please?
The problem is in the individual state system because if said taxes were dictated on a federal level there'd be no juking the tax man.Reference please?
You would probably need interstate collaboration and agreement not to participate in such a race.
Reference please?
I mean, you can't just assume anyone will accept your claims without evidence, can you? So get cracking. We need to be certain you're not just talking out of your ass.
Next up: Evaluation of sources for all your claims, meatrace.
Yes, well, as I said, meatrace set a standard. Let's see how he matches up to it himself. After all, if he can't quote sources, meaning links, where unquestionable sources clearly support his claims, it's all meaningless, and he's trying to sell something he has no idea about.
Yes, well, as I said
Reference?
meatrace set a standard.
Reference?
After all, if he can't quote sources, meaning links, where unquestionable sources clearly support his claims, it's all meaningless
Reference?
and he's trying to sell something he has no idea about.
Reference?
Gee, isn't this fun? And productive?
He's actually got some fairly proveable things there is if debatable. DO EET MEATRACE
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I certainly wouldn't say the Goblin isn't Leftist. I wouldn't even say I'm not Leftist, though he would.I'm not "left-leaning" I'm an ultraleft communist, and I highly doubt HD had me in mind.
That is all.
You're not a Leftist, I'm not a Leftist, The American Left ceased to exist decades ago.
Check the Salon article below for what I mean.
I love you, Comrade Jeff, but you're a Harringtonian social-democrat at best. Stooge!
Comrade X, you're so weird. I swear, sometimes I wonder about you. Anyway, a comrade of mine was recently elected in Seattle. Maybe you've heard of her, maybe you haven't. Her name is Kshama Sawant. I hope my comrades don't notice me breaking democratic centralism here on the Paizo boards but, in strictest confidence, I will tell you that she's about three steps to the right of me (so don't feel bad, Comrade Jeff) but she did advise IAM workers at Boeing to consider forming workers committees.
Whether that's really left or not I'll leave up for your gnomic inscrutable self to decide.
---
Now, that I've clicked on your link, Comrade X, remind me some time to link up all my "I-hate-Elizabeth Warren" posts.
---
Now, that I've read the link and looked up Adolph Reed and see he has written for The Nation and The Progressive: yeah, I'm about twenty steps to the left of that. I mean, The Nation? I read that when I was 15, growing up in bumf@@% NH and couldn't find any commie newspapers.
You call it surrender, I call it the only available path in a winner take all system.
I mean, The Nation? I read that when I was 15, growing up in bumf~*@ NH and couldn't find any commie newspapers.
And mostly just for the Alexander Cockburn columns. Ah, the good ol' days when Al and Hitch would appear side by side, before the internet, and Counterpunch, and the latter turning himself into an imperialist war pig.
[Reflects nostalgically]
Yes, well, as I saidReference?
meatrace set a standard.Reference?
After all, if he can't quote sources, meaning links, where unquestionable sources clearly support his claims, it's all meaninglessReference?
and he's trying to sell something he has no idea about.Reference?
Gee, isn't this fun? And productive?
Yes. I am so glad at least someone understood my point. That said, it would be good to see him try, because quite a few of the reference points I asked for are not exactly obviously true, sliding rather heavily into the realm of opinion. And that's where demanding references goes wrong: Hold the opinion shared by most the vocal people in the discussion, and your opinions are simply more valuable and True than other people's opinions, and don't require a shred of evidence.
So, let him try. Let him prove that he's prepared to measure up to the same things he asks of others, that he's not simply part of a circle-jerk clique that reserves the right to judge what is "obviously true" and what requires evidence.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're right, what I gave was opinion. You're free to disagree. I didn't present facts but gave an opinionated analysis.
The difference between us is that I'm not crying in the corner over hurt feelings.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, well, as I said, meatrace set a standard. Let's see how he matches up to it himself. After all, if he can't quote sources, meaning links, where unquestionable sources clearly support his claims, it's all meaningless, and he's trying to sell something he has no idea about.
And the prize for passive aggressive nonsense goes to…….
[Lops off Gallo's head]
And work outside of electoral politics, which I sadly don't do much of because I'm lazy and anti-social.:)
In case anyone is looking for something to do today and live in one of the 21 cities listed below:
21 Cities across the country, from International Women’s Day to the March for $15!
Find your local March for $15 action!
I'm goin' to Worcester.
I'll yell at a boss for you, Comrade.
What are you going to name your new kitty, Comrade Jeff?
You're right, what I gave was opinion. You're free to disagree. I didn't present facts but gave an opinionated analysis.
The difference between us is that I'm not crying in the corner over hurt feelings.
Gee, that is awfully nice of you, meatrace. I wish I was as strong as you, meatrace. Then I could look down on people who feel badly treated and show human emotions too. I guess things would be easier for me if I could, but I have never managed to be quite that cold.
Interesting discussion on the environmental policies of Australia's right wing nut job Prime Minister......
I'm not "left-leaning" I'm an ultraleft communist, and I highly doubt HD had me in mind.
That is all.
You're not a Leftist, I'm not a Leftist, The American Left ceased to exist decades ago.
Check the Salon article below for what I mean.
I certainly wouldn't say the Goblin isn't Leftist. I wouldn't even say I'm not Leftist, though he would.
I certainly agree that there's no real Left movement in America and certainly not among politicians. That doesn't mean there aren't individual Leftists. They're just not in power.
If the main reason you ever voted for a Democrat was to vote against a Republican, you're not a Leftist, you're one of the surrenderers referred to in the Harpers article.
If you bought into the Democrat hate campaign on Ralph Nader, you're not a lefist, you bought into the Surrender to the Democrats campaign.
Honestly, I don't like that article very much. First, it ignores that what they call "identity politics" is an important part of any relevant socialist movement.
Secondly I agree with thejeff about that Anklebiter is a leftist. As am I (member of the anarchosyndicalist union in my country), though I don't write as often in these parts of the forums.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We don't want your super-size
We just want to unionize!
--Doodlebug Anklebiter, Poet Laureate of Galt
Secondly I agree with thejeff about that Anklebiter is a leftist. As am I (member of the anarchosyndicalist union in my country), though I don't write as often in these parts of the forums.
An injury to one is an injury to all!
I didn't come up with any cool rhymes, but my repeated call to "Burn the cookies!!!!" was well-received.
|
|
You call it surrender, I call it the only available path in a winner take all system.And what exactly did you get? The Democrats will take your votes on one hand, and then tell you to go to hell when it comes to delivering on their promises, claim that they'll lose "electability" if they push too far. And bring up the specter of a Republican victory and ask you to be reasonable... and wait... or just plain shut up.
Did you read the Salon article I linked upthread? or the Harper's Magazine article it refers to? We have been settling for Democratic appeasement for over three decades now.
Now some states like New York have it smart. They allow for fusion voting in which third parties will campaign for democrats and votes for the third party line can be counted for another party of that party's choice. Which is better than voting straight Democrat.
Funny, I've been saying a somewhat more cynical version of this for years. Six of them here. ;-)
I didn't read the Harper's piece because it is behind a paywall, but subtitle is "The long, slow surrender of American liberals," so I imagine it's got f$~! all to do with the socialist movement.
But you don't know what Identity Politics are, Comrade X? They're what the New Left turned into after the anti-war movement fell apart: Feminism, Gay Liberation, Black Nationalism (which had started a bit earlier, of course), Black Feminism, Gay Black Feminism, etc., etc.
Fell apart, gobbo? I take it you aren't a fan? What (apart from socialist worker revolution) should the theory-makers of the left devote their time to?
Fell apart, gobbo? I take it you aren't a fan? What (apart from socialist worker revolution) should the theory-makers of the left devote their time to?
I'm not sure what you mean. The rise of Identity Politics is commonly dated to the the disintegration of the anti-war movement.
Hmm. Wrote too quickly there. Damn, I need some sleep.
And what exactly did you get?
Out of the wars.
NOT into a war with IranPressure on Idaho not to slaughter all of the wolves
A few million roadless acres of national forest kept that way
We didn't abolish the EPA
And bring up the specter of a Republican victory and ask you to be reasonable... and wait... or just plain shut up.
Yes. But if they lose do you think they're going to go further left to try to capture the green vote or further right to get more of the center?
A democratic victory can pull republicans further left and sometimes keep them there. Republicans continue to balk on gay marriage for example, but at least there's no serious question of homosexuality being illegal anymore.
Did you read the Salon article I linked upthread? or the Harper's Magazine article it refers to? We have been settling for Democratic appeasement for over three decades now.
Yes, and even the author was glad that they had no actual choice to make between democrat or green because of the electoral college. I also vote swapped for nader with a floridian in 2000.
Which is better than voting straight Democrat.