I know, I know, no plans revealed, can't cannibalise sales, etc...
But it is (1) the 10th anniversary of the APs (b) Has a precedent with the 2012 RoTRL and (c) Most importantly, will be when I will most likely be in need of a new epic campaign! :D
Getting APs in the UK is not a cheap or easy prospect. I'm currently running Curse of the Crimson Throne in Pathfinder - acquiring all six issues of the AP here in the UK was an adventure in itself! I now have everything from brand new & unused (#2) to used with the original GM's sticky-notes included (#3) to a laminated ex-public-library(!) copy of #4. Final cost inc p&p was similar to what it would have cost to buy the issues at retail in the UK, that's around £75 - maybe a bit less.
By contrast, just being able to pay £28 on amazon and have a copy of Runelords shipped to me was wonderful, and my Runelords AD&D/OSRIC campaign kicks off 7.30pm GMT this Wednesday on Dragonsfoot forums (places available). :) Those two and my Loudwater 4e D&D game will likely keep me busy to late 2016, but by 2017 I'll be looking for a new campaign. Which is where that tenth anniversary hardback comes in...
(Yes, I had a lot of coffee this fine morning). :D
Oh, my current #1 vote for the 2017 hardback is Skull & Shackles - Book 1 is effectively unavailable in the UK, so I'm guessing it's pretty good... :D Then I think #2 either Serpent's Skull, Shattered Star, or Reign of Winter. Not Kingmaker, please - I bought the first three issues and it's not really thrilling me, though I think it might work better in eg 1e AD&D.
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I would assume that if they did it, it would be Curse of the Crimson Throne: out of print, needs a 3.5 to Pathfinder update, widely considered one of the best, etc.
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If they did Curse, I would buy it.
Reminds me of part of an actual weird dream I had recently; I had to look up the stats for one of the villains in Second Darknes to see whether or not another particular villain could call down a meteor, and when I reached on the shelf, beside the Deluxe, black-bound Runelords book was one of Crimson binding (CotCT), one of mottled purple (SD), one of iridescent orange (LoF), and one of leaf-emblazoned green (KM). Sigh...
Sorry for rant, on topic: I for one would love to see a re-worked, hardbound Second Darkness. Probably not the most popular choice, but one that I feel would benefit the most from partial re-writes. (I'm not the only one who feels this way.)
if i was a betting man (which i am not:) i'd say CotCT SD or Kingmaker:) but i'm not holding my breath and would be a little surprised if they did:)
my best guess, judging on sales of WotR that they might go with something mythic involving 1 or more Runelords:) at least thats what i hope for:)
I would assume that if they did it, it would be Curse of the Crimson Throne: out of print, needs a 3.5 to Pathfinder update, widely considered one of the best, etc.
Unfortunate but understandable, since of course that is the only one I already have a complete collection of and so would not buy. CoTCT is brilliant, even though it needs lots of work as usual.
I have the first 3 of Kingnaker, I guess if I could get the whole thing in a hardback for £30 I'd bite the bullet and get it. I'd prefer either something Varisian or something pulpy-down-south - Serpent's Skull, Skull & Shackles - though. :) But either way the chance to pick up a whole AP for the cost of 2 chapters would be impossible to resist.
I doubt it'll ever happen. The reason? Working on a hardcover AP compilation takes away from time for regular APs. The Runelords Anniversary Edition is an exception due to its popularity and the need for a gateway drug to get people buying the APs.
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I would however expect some kick ass APs in 2017!
The only one I could see being done due to.....
1. 3.5 rules.
2. miss-portrayal of elves.
3. developers already know what they want to do.
4. Large need to design players to the main campaign theme instead of the first two parts.
I'm of course talking about Second Darkness.
I would be surprised (pleasantly) to see one, but if they updated Curse of the Crimson Throne to PF and put it out in a hardcover, I'd buy it.
I like the idea of reworking an AP into a hardcover compilation. It would be an excuse for so much goodness like new art, updates the 3.5 rules, and other tie in products (like pawns).
The prospect of a hardcover compilation is up there with a Sandpoint box set...
I'd buy either, but probably won't have the chance.
To be honest, part of me is not looking forward to future hardcovers. I am one of those lucky few that has picked up a physical copy of each AP volume (yes, all the kingmakers), except for Rise of the Runelords, the AE has filled that hole nicely, and the newest Wrath of the Righteous. However if a new hardcover was made, I'm faced with the choice of whether of not to repay for something I already have, however the hardcover version will likely have PF stats for 3.5 APs, as well as expanded or better revised story and plot. Now, i will probably shell out the money because, hardcovers are pretty, but I would feel better if it was done to a weak AP in order to strengthen it, as opposed to a strong AP.
So, in that regard, I think Second Darkness would be my preferred choice. As mentioned there are issues with it, so a revision would bring the most benefit and new material to it. As opposed to Curse of the Crimson Throne which, honestly, I would be hesitant to change much with, and plenty of PF conversions of the material exist on the site. I would feel better buying a highly improved version of a weak AP, then just a rules updated version of an already strong AP that I own.
Oh, a 10th anniversary alternative I thought of, to avoid cannabilising AP sales, would be to produce a previously-unpublished hardback sequel adventure to Rise of the Runelords. It could be shorter than standard AP length if desired, but I thought the Runelords book was a very nice size (the Core Rulebook is too hefty for comfort).
As a hardback, the idea would be to produce something evergreen for buyers like me - I like Paizo adventures, but I don't have practical use for an AP subscription (which to UK costs about the same as UK retail, maybe £1 or so less) given that (a) I'm looking at nearly 2 years to run 1 AP and (b) I'm not much of a browser - I don't read adventures for fun.
As much as I would like to see all of the 3.5 APs redone, it is increasingly unlikely to happen...
A..........B........../ /..........C
A = Now, B = farthest out currently scheduled product, C = Pathfinder 2
2017 may be C, and the less time there is between B and C, the less likely we are to see one or more reworks, hardcover or otherwise. On top of that, they just lost a key employee, so the labor pool is even smaller for all products between A and B or until they fill those shoes. It will be interesting to see how soon or far away C actually is. While APs may be the main product, Paizo's recent growth is at least partially tied to their hardbacks and supplementary material. We're up to 4 Bestiary books, 3 "Advanced" books, and 4 "Ultimate" books. As creative as Paizo is, I don't see them getting to double digits for those lines. We'll either get more product lines (we've already seen some of this) or a new version, and possibly both.
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I know people like to talk about a second edition of Pathfinder but...I just don't see it happening, or if it did happen, it would be the equivalent of a major errata and some slightly reworked areas that still leave past pathfinder modules completely playable in the new system. Equivalent to the changes between 3.5 and PF.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but most statements of Paizo seem to support One True Edition, do they not? The APs are the bread and butter of the Paizo model if I recall correctly, and a new edition suddenly makes all that back-catalogue of AP issues a lot less valuable.
Can the creativity continue forever? Hard to say. It may be at a certain point, new rules books become difficult to produce and hardcovers become more setting related, the big books that have been desired on Absalom, of like the Gods of the Inner Sea (or w/e the title is) hardcover coming out. Maybe they become collections of mostly out of print player or campaign books, a collected Races of Golarion Hardcover. Maybe that's the point where the resources are freed up to look at old mostly out of stock APs and revamp them into hardcovers. In any event, I just don't see a second edition anywhere near future. Not as we think of new editions in any event. But I could be completely wrong I guess.
I know people like to talk about a second edition of Pathfinder but...I just don't see it happening, or if it did happen, it would be the equivalent of a major errata and some slightly reworked areas that still leave past pathfinder modules completely playable in the new system. Equivalent to the changes between 3.5 and PF.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but most statements of Paizo seem to support One True Edition, do they not? The APs are the bread and butter of the Paizo model if I recall correctly, and a new edition suddenly makes all that back-catalogue of AP issues a lot less valuable.
Can the creativity continue forever? Hard to say. It may be at a certain point, new rules books become difficult to produce and hardcovers become more setting related, the big books that have been desired on Absalom, of like the Gods of the Inner Sea (or w/e the title is) hardcover coming out. Maybe they become collections of mostly out of print player or campaign books, a collected Races of Golarion Hardcover. Maybe that's the point where the resources are freed up to look at old mostly out of stock APs and revamp them into hardcovers. In any event, I just don't see a second edition anywhere near future. Not as we think of new editions in any event. But I could be completely wrong I guess.
That would be my expectation too - a minimally changed reissue of Pathfinder with very high backwards compatibility is vital to not void the AP back catalogue. PF also benefits a lot from trust in its evergreen nature, compared to what happened with D&D. So a 1e>2e or 3e>3.5e sort of change, at most; followed by redone versions of some of the splatbooks, as WotC did with 3E>3.5E.
Personally I'm not a big fan of splatbooks; I'd prefer a focus on setting material alongside the APs. Paizo is unique in providing so much GM-side content; it's definitely their strength. Plus this stuff is convertible to other RPGs!
Of course if they were able to develop a version of d20 that works effectively at higher levels, that would be a version well worth buying.
Call me crazy, but I'm kinda of the opinion, if Paizo develops a new system that is a significant change from Pathfinder, the best thing to do would be to shadow-develop it to as close to perfection as possible, and then when Pathfinder as both a system and Golarion as a setting are mature and beginning to decline, if such a thing can happen, launch the new system with a new setting that fits it. Start the model over again.
I mean, it seems far-fetched that we will get to a point where all aspects of Golarion are filled in, all of the setting plot-hooks have been taken advantage of by APs, Modules, of PFS modules. But there is a point where one setting becomes too complete to continue to sell product for. Or at least sell enough quantity to be profitable. To say nothing of the splat-strain the system would be suffering at that point. And I guess, I like the idea of leaving the PF setting tied to the system, and starting a new world with new opportunities if a new system was fully developed.
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If we do see another hardback compilation, I too would expect Second Darkness to be the AP of choice: a "Developer's Cut" version that substantially alters both the way Riddleport is handled in Book 1 and how the Winter Council is portrayed in Book 5. (Well, all the elves, really, but especially the Council.)
That said, I have trouble believing Paizo would choose a reprint like that over some totally new product that wouldn't have as many sales hurdles to overcome...
2. "Miss-portrayal of elves"
how does that portray elves and how is it mishandled?
JJ and others have said that they would have liked the elves to be more open and friendly and less isolative and jerkish as they were portrayed in this AP. they along with others also voiced how they wanted the volumes to flow more smoothly between the second and third, as you went from being crimelords to saving the elven people.
Of course if they were able to develop a version of d20 that works effectively at higher levels, that would be a version well worth buying.
You're right - I also GM 4e D&D which works (but is v slow in combat) at high levels. It's a different sort of game though; I'd like something which felt more like traditional D&D but had reasonable PC/PC and PC/monster balance to high level, at least to the extent AD&D and BECM/RC D&D managed it. I've made a few house rules to Pathfinder in that direction, the main one being Base Save Bonus = Level, so that high level characters have a better than even chance of making most saves. I also made crits faster and less swingy by removing confirmation roll and having them do fixed damage (x2 > max dmg, x3 > 1.5 max, x4 > 2 max).
That's the kind of thing I'd like to see in Pathfinder 2.0.
But there is a point where one setting becomes too complete to continue to sell product for. Or at least sell enough quantity to be profitable. To say nothing of the splat-strain the system would be suffering at that point.
I'm not sure if that's the case; I'd think with the real world you could write new material set in it forever, why not Golarion? Certainly within the lifetime of ourselves, Vic Wertz, Lisa Stevens, James Jacobobs et al, I don't think they'll run out of stuff to do. They made some very smart choices in setting up Golarion as a robust and diverse setting. They are also smart to keep the scale of the APs at a non-realms-shattering level, create a bunch more stuff for every story hook that is closed (eg the diverse number of Runelords), and avoid official metaplot. They seem to have noted all the mistakes WoTC and White Wolf etc made and to have avoided them. I would certainly think twenty or thirty more years of the current approach to the setting (though not player-side splatbooks) would be feasible.
But there is a point where one setting becomes too complete to continue to sell product for. Or at least sell enough quantity to be profitable. To say nothing of the splat-strain the system would be suffering at that point.I'm not sure if that's the case; I'd think with the real world you could write new material set in it forever, why not Golarion? Certainly within the lifetime of ourselves, Vic Wertz, Lisa Stevens, James Jacobobs et al, I don't think they'll run out of stuff to do. They made some very smart choices in setting up Golarion as a robust and diverse setting. They are also smart to keep the scale of the APs at a non-realms-shattering level, create a bunch more stuff for every story hook that is closed (eg the diverse number of Runelords), and avoid official metaplot. They seem to have noted all the mistakes WoTC and White Wolf etc made and to have avoided them. I would certainly think twenty or thirty more years of the current approach to the setting (though not player-side splatbooks) would be feasible.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that they couldn't write it. I said that I don't think they'd be able to continue to sell it.
Take for example, Varisia. We have a book on the country itself, in addition to the article of it in the Inner Sea Guide. We have three of it's largest cities detailed with their own campaign books. We have 4 full APs that take us on an entire tour of the landscape, as well as another where the first book happens within it. I think it is somewhat safe to say that additional products may not sell very well for Varisia at this point, because there is already so much material for it. I know there were groans and protests when Shattered Star was announced as another Varisian AP.
Now, I'm not saying we're anywhere close to it, but there will come a time when most of Golarion has been detailed, or, people will simply have had enough of the setting and don't desire more in order to run their own games. I'm not saying everyone, but enough people that purchases go down, print runs need to be reduced and therefore the fixed costs of the books go up. It is the rare fiction that can continue forever, enough people will finally be satisfied at a certain point. Especially given the limitations Paizo imposes on themselves of keeping a certain amount of static-ness to the setting, as well as plenty of areas for GMs to fill in.
I also made crits faster and less swingy by removing confirmation roll and having them do fixed damage (x2 > max dmg, x3 > 1.5 max, x4 > 2 max).
I'm tempted to use this. It would speed things along at the very least.
I'd certainly like to see the revised Second Darkness AP James is envisioning, but the fact is, they seem to have tons of unsold volumes of Pathfinder Adventure Path volumes #13–#18. Note that none of these are listed on the recent store blog of items with dwindling supplies, except the alternative cover version of #13, which was supposed to have a limited print run to be sold primarily at GenCon 2009, and is still available. So, if they were to publish a revised hardcover version now, they'd certainly make sure that nobody will ever buy any of those, and I don't think they want that.
It is not solely a question of whether there is room for more material or whether they can continue to create different APs and rules add-ons. It also involves their planned growth. Is Paizo today as big as they want the company to become? If so, then an eternal Pathfinder system might be feasible... ticking perpetually along with periodic reprints/updates of rulebooks (and possibly APs) and endless campaign setting/player's handbooks/etc.
But if, as a company they hope to become bigger, they have to expand somewhere. New product lines? We just got a card game, and they've added pawns AND miniatures, so things are well underway there already. Adding more Golarion/Pathfinder lines however, threatens to over-saturate the core market... you have to bring in new customers to create growth. Secondary Pathfinder settings? Maybe a Pathfinder modern/space/pulp adventure/horror game line(s)? Maybe a few board games here and there exploiting popular parts of a setting? (Pathfinder Talisman based on the Sihedron anyone?) Perhaps an internet-based tool for playing all of the above/bringing people together/allowing online PFS sessions? Oh yeah, already underway there too. All of this should sound very familiar.
Pathfinder may well carry on for several years longer than other systems. But there will come a time when the system will be so expanded that the question of a v2.0 WILL come up.
And believe me, I'll be right here with you screaming "shut up and take my money" for 3.5 AP reprints until then... and I own the originals.
Vic and Lisa have stated elsewhere that Paizo is as big as they ever want it to be. Of course, they've added more staff and products since.
They're absolutely against adding any other campaign settings, though, as they were with TSR back in the day and believe supporting multiple campaign settings and thus splitting their market was one of the major reasons for that company's failure. (I.e., if you publish a Pathfinder modern/space opera setting, customers are likely to subscribe to/buy supporting material for it or Golarion Classic but not both. Twice the development and production costs, less than twice the number of sales.)
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I am going to re-iterate something I said early, because it was a throw-away line.
I don't know about a hardback AP, ever. I don't rule it out, but that is a decision that is weighed heavily with the financial side of the business.
So why I am posting?
Because I want to plant the seed of the idea that 2017 should have extra special APs to commemorate the occasion.
A major campaign event. I'm not talking about metaplot or Aroden- but something really cool like Nex or Aboleths. I have another cool idea I would love, but I don't want to jinx it.
How about a Mythic adventure involving Nex, the Mana Wastes, and the surrounding region? :)
I think by the time 2017 Kingmaker probably won't be available anymore. That would be my number one vote for a Hardback compilation as that one also seems to have the most praise. It could also use an update for some of the information in regards to Ultimate Campaign, and they may also be able to toss in a Mythic creature or two, perhaps some stuff related to the APG and/or UC and UM.
However, if they wanted to do a sequel...they already have the Shattered Star AP if they wanted to do a hardback sequel to RotR.
The other alternative I could see is if they create a special AP for the 10th anniversary and perhaps include a hardback collected version of that AP?
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that they couldn't write it. I said that I don't think they'd be able to continue to sell it.Take for example, Varisia. We have a book on the country itself, in addition to the article of it in the Inner Sea Guide. We have three of it's largest cities detailed with their own campaign books. We have 4 full APs that take us on an entire tour of the landscape, as well as another where the first book happens within it. I think it is somewhat safe to say that additional products may not sell very well for Varisia at this point, because there is already so much material for it. I know there were groans and protests when Shattered Star was announced as another Varisian AP.
Ah, for me Varisia is a selling point! It's their best setting IMO; with all the cool flavour I'm more likely to buy an AP that is set there. And I may buy Shattered Star after I've run Crimson Throne & Rise of the Runelords for the reason that it is a sequel and would likely appeal to players of my previous campaigns. One Varisian AP per Runelord at least is fine with me... :D
So, if they were to publish a revised hardcover version now, they'd certainly make sure that nobody will ever buy any of those, and I don't think they want that.
There comes a time when gems lose their luster... I mean, when you just have to pulp what's in your warehouse and start over. Presumably Paizo don't want to end up like TSR with warehouses full of unsold fifteen year old material.
So the 10th Anniversary AP is called : Prophecies of the Last Azlanti
It's an adventure path set mainly in Absalom that initially starts off as as an old wizened woman claims that the PC's are destined to fulfill an old Arodenite prophecy. Many others claim that the power of foretelling died with Aroden.
The AP continues as the players begin gaining a following (whether they encourage it or not) and an Ascendant Cult begins to worship them. They have clashes with rival Ascendant cults and would be gods as they try to prove/disprove the prophecy.
Eventually even the hidden masters of the ancient aboleths make an appearance as the PC's realize that the prophecy may be true and they are pushed to make a try at the fabled Starstone to finally test the veracity of the prophecy. ONE of the PC's may or may not become ascended and be the newest god to join the Inner Sea Pantheon of Gods.
The PC who is truly destined to become a god is determined by choices made during the entire AP and some fickle luck from Desna (i.e. D20's).
The AP would use elements of the Ultimate Campaign Guide, Mythic Rules and Pathfinder Society as the season questline culminates at gencon where one lucky Table will have their group named as HERALDS for the newly ascended God!
Actually, Paizo HAS made an effort to reduce their warehouse holdings. They had the Great Golem Sale, which very likely sold hundreds of the three complete APs that were available (I know I bought all three) along with a lot of support material.
I'd not be surprised if either next year or the year after Paizo does something similar. Because it costs money to keep something in a warehouse, especially if you are getting more and more product in. And an older product like Second Darkness that probably didn't see much movement prior to the Golem Sale ultimately is going to just sit there while newer products sell instead.
Mind you, this also kind of precludes the idea of a hardcover compilation for Second Darkness or one of the other APs people have bandied about - at least, for a while. Because why remove a product that wasn't selling from the warehouses only to replace it with a new version that might not sell? Runelords had the benefit of being hugely popular. The next hardcover compilation, if there ever is one, will be another of the popular APs in all likelihood.
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Take for example, Varisia. We have a book on the country itself, in addition to the article of it in the Inner Sea Guide. We have three of it's largest cities detailed with their own campaign books. We have 4 full APs that take us on an entire tour of the landscape, as well as another where the first book happens within it. I think it is somewhat safe to say that additional products may not sell very well for Varisia at this point, because there is already so much material for it. I know there were groans and protests when Shattered Star was announced as another Varisian AP.Now, I'm not saying we're anywhere close to it, but there will come a time when most of Golarion has been detailed, or, people will simply have had enough of the setting and don't desire more in order to run their...
I'm all for more Varisia. It's my favorite spot on Golarion and welcome any more material set there. AP? Yes please. Big regional hardcover? Yes please. And so on.
It's true that none of the other areas have nearly as much coverage as Varisia, so Paizo could conceivably detail ALL of those regions as much as it has or more. That means many many more years before they run out of room as it were.
Would buy a hardback anniversary AP of any of the 3.5 APs. My vote is for Second Darkness since that's the one that would benefit the most and the one that JJ is most interested in doing.
My top 4 picks for another hardcover AP
1: Curse of the Crimson Throne - Needs updated & expanded
2: Second Darkness - Like CotCT, and if they splashed the cover with a Drow, it'd be sold out ASAP
3: Kingmaker - With the expanded rulesets for governance, war, etc. in the back
4: Jade Regent - Personal favorite AP. So shoot me... <.<
Mind you, this also kind of precludes the idea of a hardcover compilation for Second Darkness or one of the other APs people have bandied about - at least, for a while. Because why remove a product that wasn't selling from the warehouses only to replace it with a new version that might not sell? Runelords had the benefit of being hugely popular. The next hardcover compilation, if there ever is one, will be another of the popular APs in all likelihood.
Yes. Successful generals have a motto: "Reinforce success". And the Paizo CEO is a successful general...
For a designer, turning around an (apparently) flawed AP and getting it right this time is a very attractive prospect. But from a business perspective it doesn't look so great - you have to overcome existing apathy, even negativity. Realistically, the safe bet is to touch up an AP like Crimson Throne that already has a lot of positive word of mouth around it.
Anyway, if I were the Paizo bosses, leaving aside my personal preferences, I would do another hardback AP for 2017, but I'd wait to see which was the most popular AP of the last 10 years (leaving aside late 2014 through 2016 releases, too soon); and I'd probably go with that one.
Ah, for me Varisia is a selling point! It's their best setting IMO; with all the cool flavour I'm more likely to buy an AP that is set there. And I may buy Shattered Star after I've run Crimson Throne & Rise of the Runelords for the reason that it is a sequel and would likely appeal to players of my previous campaigns. One Varisian AP per Runelord at least is fine with me... :D
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that they couldn't write it. I said that I don't think they'd be able to continue to sell it.Take for example, Varisia. We have a book on the country itself, in addition to the article of it in the Inner Sea Guide. We have three of it's largest cities detailed with their own campaign books. We have 4 full APs that take us on an entire tour of the landscape, as well as another where the first book happens within it. I think it is somewhat safe to say that additional products may not sell very well for Varisia at this point, because there is already so much material for it. I know there were groans and protests when Shattered Star was announced as another Varisian AP.
you should absolutely get Shattered Star! super awesome AP one of the best:)
Creative Director
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I think it is somewhat safe to say that additional products may not sell very well for Varisia at this point, because there is already so much material for it.
I wouldn't say that at all. The fact that there's so much support for Varisia has helped make it one of the most popular regions in the Inner Sea area. There's still LOTS of room for more expansion there as well, in my opinion.
And that's just one region out of nearly 50 in the whole Inner Sea area, which helps to make me feel like we're not in danger of running out of fun new things to do with the setting anytime soon. ;-)
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It's sort of like, Batman comics haven't stopped selling because there's so much of them out there. In fact, the probably sell *better* because there's so much of them. They've reached a sort of critical mass where they are perceived as 'critical' or 'core' or 'important', they've received a prestige other brands don't have.
In the same way, having a lot of Varisia product out there could make Varisia appear as the 'important' region of Golarion, and could make it more attractive to (at least some types of) players.