Ki Throw.... off a cliff

[Sub_Zero]

So if I'm standing on a cliff's edge and I successfully trip the person in front of me, can I use ki throw to place them in the adjacent square that's off the cliff?

Ki Throw

Prerequisites: Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike.

Benefit: On a successful unarmed trip attack against a target your size or smaller, you may throw the target prone in any square you threaten rather than its own square. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and you cannot throw the creature into a space occupied by other creatures.

Special: A monk may gain Ki Throw as a bonus feat at 10th level. A monk with this feat can affect creatures larger than his own size by spending 1 ki point per size category difference.

What would happen? Does the opponent get a reflex saving throw to catch the ledge?

also if I use spinning throw (lets me make a bull rush maneuver) can I then really really throw them off the cliff?

[Kazaan]

Most abilities that let you move a target (ie. reposition and grapple) have specific restrictions regarding this. Reposition denies it outright, and grapple gives the target an immediate attempt to get free. Ki Throw has no such caveat. Therefore, I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to do this. Also, keep in mind that natural cliffs typically aren't perfectly vertical; they slope. Cliffs up to 30' tall occupy one 5' square when viewed from over-head. So the base of the cliff would be 30' down from a point about 5' horizontally out into thin air. This means that the target isn't literally in free-fall but tumbling down the cliff face which gives them a chance to...

PRD wrote:

Catch Yourself When Falling: It's practically impossible to catch yourself on a wall while falling, yet if you wish to attempt such a difficult task, you can make a Climb check (DC = wall's DC + 20) to do so. It's much easier to catch yourself on a slope (DC = slope's DC + 10).

A cliff is typically a DC 15 climb check so it'd be a DC 25 check if the cliff is sloped. If you bull-rush them out into the air, they won't have anything to grab hold of (at least until they've fallen far enough down a sufficiently tall height) so it's more likely that they go splat (provided you make the check).

[deuxhero]

And falling damage is really low. Characters quickly get to the point where they can survive terminal vorticity.

[Mythic Evil Lincoln]

If I were the GM, I would allow a reflex save.

Otherwise, what's to stop me from using it on the players similarly?

Kazaan's interpretation is probably the correct one, but I would consider what it means for the game at large when we rely only on the literal reading and the absence of a save clause is taken to mean "no save".

[Rayo]

To be fair, there is still a combat maneuver roll that needs to succeed and it requires a few feats to work. While it would be better than a bull rush since you have more options, it doesn't strike me as unfair.

[Remy Balster]

I have a zen archer/archer fighter build that takes his threatened area out to 25' on a regular basis, and makes tossing people into hazards and off cliffs a favored tactic.

Ranged Trick - Trip + Greater Trip + Improved Snap Shot + Combat Patrol + Ki Throw is simply insane. Can chuck people into any desired square in a 25' radius, so funny.

[Charlie Bell]

Seems legit.

[Claxon]

I'm with Mythic Evil Lincoln. While it does appear legal, I would probably add a save. If my players protested I would have the same scenario appear with similarly built NPC throw them off a cliff.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

*Of course this goes back to the gentleman's agreement I have with my players

[GeneticDrift]

why put a cliff there if not for something like this. it is fun for everyone (GM and PC)

[Sub_Zero]

Thanks all,

I thought it a bit strange that this ability didn't have some sort of "you can't place in a harmful space" rule somewhere, since re-position (which it is basically replacing) specifically forbids this action.

I'll talk to the GM and see what he thinks. I'd say a save is probably in order, with spinning throw maybe causing a them to fall a bit first before getting a chance to save. Seems like a fair/fun way to play it.

It's just one of those feats that seems too good for what you're getting. (compared to similar feats).

[blahpers]

Yes, it works, like many other similar abilities. I recommend that PCs and smarter NPCs stay the hell away from cliffs.

[Doomed Hero]

i'd allow it.

I also house-rule away the caveat on Reposition that prevents a character from shoving another character into a hazard.

There's little enough reason to invest or use combat maneuvers anyway. Why *else* would you use Reposition if not to move your enemy into danger?

Why does the existence of a wall of fire make someone impossible to move?

[Partizanski]

Doomed Hero wrote:

i'd allow it.

I also house-rule away the caveat on Reposition that prevents a character from shoving another character into a hazard.

There's little enough reason to invest or use combat maneuvers anyway. Why *else* would you use Reposition if not to move your enemy into danger?

Why does the existence of a wall of fire make someone impossible to move?

To put enemies into disadvantageous positions, like next to the barbarian so he can full attack.

There is also a feat that does let you put them in dangerous positions called Tactical Reposition.

[Tels]

It kind of breaks my immersion if I can throw a guy 30 ft in one direction, but can't throw him in the other direction because it would cause him harm.

Is there some otherworldly omnipotent force out there who's sole purpose in existence is to prevent such tactics from happening?

[blahpers]

Partizanski wrote:

Doomed Hero wrote:

i'd allow it.

I also house-rule away the caveat on Reposition that prevents a character from shoving another character into a hazard.

There's little enough reason to invest or use combat maneuvers anyway. Why *else* would you use Reposition if not to move your enemy into danger?

Why does the existence of a wall of fire make someone impossible to move?

To put enemies into disadvantageous positions, like next to the barbarian so he can full attack.

There is also a feat that does let you put them in dangerous positions called Tactical Reposition.

As opposed to the usual, Untactical Reposition. : D

I house-rule the "zomg danger!" restrictions away as well. Respect hazards.

[Drakkiel]

Reposition is not grabbing them and putting them in a square...that's what you can do with grapple...grapple allows it but they get a free attempt to get out at +4

Reposition is using "other means" to force them to move such as being especially threatening with your weapon...it's really up to you or the GM as to how since it's not specifically spelled out

Ki throw does not reference reposition so RAW you can put them in any square that doesn't have a creature in it...however if it's on the edge of a cliff they should get a climb check to grab the edge

May seem OP but anyone with a Int of 1 should know that cliff = bad

[WRoy]

It is no more overpowered than bull rushing or hydraulic pushing a creature off a cliff/into a pit. Ki Throw works fine RAW.

[Drakkiel]

WRoy wrote:

It is no more overpowered than bull rushing or hydraulic pushing a creature off a cliff/into a pit. Ki Throw works fine RAW.

For the record I wasn't calling it OP...that was for those that may think it is by calling for a reflex save. (My post have been very misconstrued in the past...I find I need to clarify my opinions now)

[Umbranus]

Drakkiel wrote:

Reposition is not grabbing them and putting them in a square...that's what you can do with grapple...grapple allows it but they get a free attempt to get out at +4

Reposition is using "other means" to force them to move such as being especially threatening with your weapon...it's really up to you or the GM as to how since it's not specifically spelled out

That's how I understood it. You use your weapon not to hit them but to evade your strikes into the direction you want them to go.

If you picture this you can see why it would not work if this evasion puts the target into direct harm. They would rather take that hit than evade into their doom.