Cheese is what the player with a planar-binded pit fiend calls the monk using pre-errata crane wing.
It expands beyond cheese though.Too much cheese is the point at which having the character in the party make GMing a burden and a chore instead of part of a pleasant hobby.I like this definition.
My definition of cheese goes to both extremes, just like my definition of broken includes both over and underpowered elements (I consider both the Synthesist and the Rogue broken, just in different ways).
I hate the term cheese and often say one mans cheese is another mans pizza topping.
But there is a time when powerbuilding/underbuilding is bad. When one character makes one or more other characters they play with near worthless is when a problem is occuring.
Everyone should be able to enjoy and add to the party.
For DMs crying "that is too cheesy", well that means you are an uncreative DM that do not know the rules well enough. It is your game you can make whatever you want. Know your power built crew and adjust the encounters to limit those players abilities.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Anything that:
1. Goes against the intent of the game (it has a long history so intent is easy to decipher) - there is a reason dnd is still kicking in an age of alternatives
2. Goes against the pre-existing systems checks and balances
Well-articulated! This is how I'm used to seeing people apply the term cheese. And they're usually wrong, which is what I was talking with Democratus about earlier; I've begun the compilation (in my profile) of topics where people made these sorts of claims and then turned out to be wrong.
I find that the more often someone cries "Cheese!" (with the above-quoted definition), the less likely it is they have any clue what they're talking about.
"What you can't qualify for Mystic Theurge by using a SLA, that's the cheesiest thing I ever heard, the designers definitely didn't intend that!"
See how that turned out?
"What you can't qualify for Mystic Theurge by using a SLA, that's the cheesiest thing I ever heard, the designers definitely didn't intend that!"
See how that turned out?
I'm not so sure they did intend that. It seems to me they were trying to avert the larger unseen consequences of disallowing it than just letting it ride. Especially since it affects stuff Paizo hasn't typically concerned themselves with (PrCs, especially the core ones).
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
I'm not so sure they did intend that. It seems to me they were trying to avert the larger unseen consequences of disallowing it than just letting it ride. Especially since it affects stuff Paizo hasn't typically concerned themselves with (PrCs, especially the core ones)."What you can't qualify for Mystic Theurge by using a SLA, that's the cheesiest thing I ever heard, the designers definitely didn't intend that!"
See how that turned out?
Actually, SKR commented that they wanted SLAs to work more like spells, but hadn't wanted to write new rules or alter existing ones to get there; then they noticed that there's already precedent for SLAs counting as spells (I believe it's in crafting prereq rules where it was explicit), and there are no printed rules contradicting the stance (only longstanding tradition), so they took the opportunity to establish a new paradigm via FAQ.
cheese, is when you play an ARG Race Builder Playtest Sparkle Elf with a +8 racial bonus to intelligence and whine, that despite your Wizard's DCs being higher than those of the other PC Wizard by whole 3 points, that your save or sucks aren't hard enough to resist.
cheese, is when you build hulks with the race builder, a Medium Race with +4 Strength, powerful build, a will save bonus, and -2 to all 3 mental stats, but can cast enlarge person 3 times per day as a Racial SLA to boost your strength further.
building a half-nymph using the race builder that doesn't have a +6 or higher base racial charisma bonus. isn't cheese.
Building a character for solo games when you are part of a party, having to defend the use of a mechanic with "It's on the forums" or "It's perfectly legal," or my personal favorite; Everybody else looks down at their sheets, then to the gm, shakes their heads and sighs usually with disbelief.
|
"Cheese" for me is generally any of the following;
1: Use and abuse of loopholes and unforeseen/unintended ability combinations from varying sources in order to create characters that vastly overwhelm encounters and trivialize adventures. Having a very efficient character is one thing, having one that plays like a cheat code video game is another. If it breaks the standard "spirit" of the game, it is cheese.
2: Stretching or ignoring fluff/descriptive text in order to grab the best mechanical advantage abilities that just can't be rationally justified... "So your xenophobic dwarf who has never left the mountain halls was adopted by kobolds and picked up a regional trait from a jungle nation on the other side of the world? Riiiiiiiiight".
3: Ignoring rules AND fluff to make your My-Pretty-Princess-Pony-Power-Ranger-Paladin-Assassin-Barbarian, Gary Stu, because you just can't play your character any other way...
4: Creating a character that is horribly flawed to the point of being useless or even a liability to you party, while insisting it makes you an RP purist. Then grandstanding in game and insisting you should be able to defeat the enemy who just obliterated you because your story is far more important than mechanics!
5: Just about anything that involves a player trying to be secretive about his characters sheet, pulling you aside to whisper about it's virtues and abilities, and any explanation that starts with "Well, it could be read that..."
Essentially "cheese" is anything not fitting in, or overly disruptive, to the campaign being played and the group being played with.
2: Stretching or ignoring fluff/descriptive text in order to grab the best mechanical advantage abilities that just can't be rationally justified... "So your xenophobic dwarf who has never left the mountain halls was adopted by kobolds and picked up a regional trait from a jungle nation on the other side of the world? Riiiiiiiiight".
While the pc in this example seems beyond redemption, this is often an issue of different playstyles.
For example the thundercaller bard archetype. It seems that from its fluff that all thundercallers are shoanti, at least in Golarion. Now there is the one side for which this is an important restriction, because having someone else be a thundercaller would would harm their immersion. Then on the other hand there are those who just want an interesting pc and who can easily see a Halfling using the same abilities as a thundercaller without him ever having met a shoanti. Similarities do arise in separate cultures.For the first a Halfling thundercaller could be nearly as bad as your example above. For the other side it's just a fun pc.