I'm looking for pure combat optimization here, including potential group buffs.
An arcane duelist who goes into the snap shot tree of feats can end up being an archer who can stand in the thick of things while dealing damage and causing havoc for casters.
Looking for your input.
All depends on what you mean with "bard". Arcane duelist loses most of it's ability to be a skill monkey, and archeologist is a sub-par buffer, by bard standards.
You should first answer this question. Why are you choosing bard and not ranger or fighter? Knowing that, we can get to work.
I'm choosing a bard because I want to play something that uses archery, charisma, and spells.
I agree, Divine Hunter sounds like the better package deal.
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Yeah, but Divine hunter has only up to 4th level spells, and has some very steep RP requirements. Bards can make fine support archers. Will they be top damagers? No. However, they will have great skills, up to 6th level spellcasting and powerful buffing abilities. Even the Arcane Duelist will be able to buff like it's nobody's business and be the face. In addition, while the divine hunter has better archery, he only has 4th level spells and MUST be lawful good. Have you ever considered the fact that maybe the OP wants to play an evil character? Or morally grey neutral-type? In those instances Paladin won't work at all, and the inquisitor dosen't actually have charisma. He just pretends he does on social skills with his inquisition and happily dumps his cha to 7, so inquisitor won't work here since the OP specified he wanted charisma and social skills =/= charisma. You can have a high cha character with bleh social skills and a character that dumped cha but has excellent social skills. As for the wood oracle, I know nothing about it, but it seems like it has restricted fluff. You're a nature-based character and thats that. What if this guy wants to make a character who could care less about nature? can't do that with a wood oracle. Simply put, there are fluff considerations to take into account here as well, so don't focus on other options and help the guy make what he wants to make.
I appreciate the sentiment, Takhisis.
The Nature/Divine theme is not really what I'm looking for. Since Arcane Duelist can still buff, I'll most likely be going in that direction.
Although, quick question. Could you do an archery oracle with the Battle Mystery?
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Fluff<>Mechanics. I agree with you on the Paladin issue, but i mentioned it just because it is a very good fit for combing CHA and Archery. That said, Inquisitor and Wood Oracle can match very well.
Wood Oracle isn't really nature focused at all, they just like wood. They can talk to wood, are good with wooden weapons, and can create wooden armor. They are much more like a Mutant from X-men that has wood powers than a druid. Being a Cha based class, they have high CHA for casting, and they are a full caster class as well. So they are better at casting than a bard, have an effective always on full-bab with a bow, and can fill the requirements of CHA, Casting and Archery quite well. Just don't take the clouded vision curse.
Inquisitor has about the same spellcasting as a bard, but I disagree that being able to use wisdom for social skills isn't the same for a character concept has having a high CHA. Cha is not a measure of looks, and if all the social skills that are used for interaction with other players are high then what is the difference to how the character plays or your picture of them? Judgements, Bane, and Solo Tactics makes for a better archer than a Bard's performance, while still serving quite well as party face, skill monkey and spell support.
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It would be a bit difficult to make a battle oracle archer, I would think, due to most of the revelations seemingly focusing on melee. Could it be done? Perhaps, but there would be very few revelations I would want to take as an archer from the battle mystery. In addition, some of the bonus spells tilt themselves to melee as well, so a battle oracle archer would be VERY sub-optimal, to the point that you'd be better off with a bard.
As for the inqusitor, the RP does matter....because charisma effects your characters personality. It effects how "forceful" their personality is, which means people with lower cha will be shy or boring/mundane/average to others, even if they do have good social skills. Cha isn't about likeability/dislikeability it is about how well you can force your will on others. Characters with low cha demand a very specific personality that makes them shy, mundane, awkward, annoying or something of the like. Simply put, the less cha you have, the less "awesome" you come off to people, which can clash with certain character concepts, especially heroes who are meant to be dynamic and invoke strong reactions from others.(Which would demand high-midling cha, depending on the character concept.)
You could do archery with a battle oracle, but I think its strength is a little more melee-oriented. You won't get as much use out of things like Enlarge Person (though it makes a good buff still), or Maneuver Mastery; maybe not even Iron Skin. Surprising Charge, despite the name, could be useful, though.
At any rate, I don't think the Arcane Duelist will let you down. Give it a whirl.
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First, I'd like to note, Bards are cool and effective, and playing one will definitely work for your concept. Feel free to do so.
As for the inqusitor, the RP does matter....because charisma effects your characters personality. It effects how "forceful" their personality is, which means people with lower cha will be shy or boring/mundane/average to others, even if they do have good social skills. Cha isn't about likeability/dislikeability it is about how well you can force your will on others. Characters with low cha demand a very specific personality that makes them shy, mundane, awkward, annoying or something of the like. Simply put, the less cha you have, the less "awesome" you come off to people, which can clash with certain character concepts, especially heroes who are meant to be dynamic and invoke strong reactions from others.(Which would demand high-midling cha, depending on the character concept.)
Have you looked at the Conversion Inquisition? It makes all of that based on Wisdom instead of Charisma both mechanically and thematically.
To quote:
Granted Powers: You are a powerful persuader. A honeyed tongue empowered by divine argumentation sways the indifferent and adversarial to your side.
Charm of Wisdom (Ex): You use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Charisma modifier when making Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.
So yeah. Bard's still definitely a viable option, but Inquisitor works fine thematically.
For a bard archer, you'll probably want lingering performance and (at level 11) discordant voice
I would also do arcane duelist - half of being a bard is being a force multiplier - which an archaeologist is not as well equipped to do. If you have a GM who loves traps and no rogues, archaeologist becomes good again.
Here's a build from this WEBSITE(I played a 5th level version for a mini-campaign and enjoyed it):
Summary: This Pathfinder optimized bard [archetype is Arcane Duelist] archer build is to 13th level with all levels in the bard class...
Campaign Traits / Feat Progression: Traits) Reactionary and Exile; Human Feat) Point Blank Shot; 1) Precise Shot; 3) Rapid Shot; 5) Deadly Aim; 7) Weapon Focus (Shortbow Composite); 9) Manyshot; 11) Clustershot; 13) Whatever
Bard Masterpiece: At seventh level, this pathfinder optimized bard build trades in a 2nd level known spell for the Bard Masterpiece 23 Dance Steps.
Skills Ranks at 13th (91 points): Acrobatics (10), Intimidate (10), Escape Artist (10), Perception (10), Perform Dance (8), Sense Motive (10), Spellcraft (10), Stealth (10), and Use Magic Device (13). Note: Skill points are based on Int = 10 from 20 and 25 point builds.
Spontaneous Spells (6 6 5 5 4 2): 0th: Read Magic, Detect Magic, Ghost Sounds, Prestidigitation, Dancing Lights, Open/Close; 1st: Vanish, Liberating Command, Grease, Feather Step, Silent Image, Feather Fall, Disguise Self, Charm Person; 2nd: Allegro, Blistering Invective, Glitterdust, Silence, Mirror Image, Heroism; 3rd: Phantom Steed, Confusion, Haste, Slow, Good Hope, Invisibility Sphere, Tiny Hut; 4th: Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, Dominate Person, Zone of Silence; 5th: Greater Dispel Magic, Shadow Walk
Items 12th Level: Total Wealth for 12th Level is 140K. Use the leftover amount for pocket change.
Miscellaneous (22.8K): Handy Haversack (2K); Efficient Quiver (1.8K); +3 Cloak of Resistance (9K); Boots of Levitation (7.5K); Cloak of Elvenkind (2.5K)
AC Related (42K): +2 Ring of Protection (8K); +2 Amulet of NA (8K); +5 Mithril Chainmail (26K)
Weapon Related (41K): Bracer’s of Archery (Greater) (25K); +2 Shortbow Comp (+2) (8K); +2 Rapier (8K)
Stat Related (26K): +2 Belt of Perfection (16K); +2 Headband of Mental Prowess (Chr/Int) (10K)
Wands (7.5K): Expeditious Retreat (50), Abundant Ammunition (50), Gravity Bow (50), Cure Light Wound (50) , Flaming Arrows (50), Invisibility (50), Air Bubble (50);
Note: The number in brackets represents the number of charges in the wand.
I'm choosing a bard because I want to play something that uses archery, charisma, and spells.
Archery, Charisma and spells you say? Why not a arcane archer that uses sorcerer instead of wizard? You'll find that you will be casting a small variety of spells anyway, so having more castings per day will help a lot. They aren't elf specific anymore.
I definitely do not recommend Oracle. You should never play an oracle unless you intend your curse to dominate your roleplay.
I also have to disagree with this. I have a dual cure oracle and I feel that the curses dominate my roleplaying with her. I would roleplay her the same even if a different class. Yes they influence me, but so does her skills, stats and most importantly background. I have a greater effect on my tactics. Since I have Haunted and Wasting.. I don't get stuff out of bag during combat or use many non intimidate charisma skills.
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I have to agree that your curse should not dominate your play. This all coming from a Bard with a one level dip into Lore-Mystery oracle with LAME (remember, most bard stuff requires you to stay near me!).
My (eight man!) party will stay near or be on their own. My gimp leg lets me carry a lot of stuff, but you guys better hold on. Also, hold your actions if you beat me on initiative. Don't worry, I beat the enemy.
I'm looking for pure combat optimization here, including potential group buffs.
An arcane duelist who goes into the snap shot tree of feats can end up being an archer who can stand in the thick of things while dealing damage and causing havoc for casters.
Looking for your input.
Arcane duelist will rock.
Play human so you can pick point blank shot and precise shot at level 1.You don't need a longbow
I think deadly aim can wait with you having Arcane Strike.
Pick Magical Knack trait so you can multiclass.
If you do multiolass go with 8 levels bard Before you take one level fighter.
Stay ways from weapon focus until level 9 when you pick weapon focus with your bonus fighter feat.
I definitely do not recommend Oracle. You should never play an oracle unless you intend your curse to dominate your roleplay.
Conversion Inquisitor can be reskinned and work unless UMD was key to your build.
For bard I'd recommend Arcane Duelist. Archaeologist needs lingering performance and has to pay for arcane strike. You don't have enough feats for that early on.
You can easily fill up on nothing but archery feats. Discordant voice makes it in because it's just that good.
human) point blank shot
1) precise shot
3) rapid shot
5) deadly aim
7) weapon focus
9) manyshot
11) discordant voice
13) snap shot
15) improved precise shot
17) combat expertise
19) improved snap shot
My bold.
I guess you mean combat reflexes.I agree discordant voice is good and good choice not to pick Extra Performance or Lingering Performance. By level 8 or 9 you don’t need either of them.
I probably wouldn’t go all archer in, unless I picked one or two levels fighter.
Really precise shot, rapid shot, Deadly aim and Arcane strike is all that you need. True manyshot and snap shot helps, but they are not mandatory. With all the spells the bard has I’m not even sure it needs improved precise shot.