Hello everyone!
I have three questions about making stealth and perception checks:
1) When you stealth for the first time, how many times after that do you need to make the check until you jump out of your hiding place? So, for example, if I was hiding behind a corner (cover) and I was in dim light (concealment), and an enemy walked up behind the corner, would I have to make another stealth check?
2) When it says in the stealth description:
Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had concealment.
What does that mean? You can stealth when you have concealment, but why do you have concealment when you stealth?
3) Can you stealth in the middle of combat?
Hello everyone!
I have three questions about making stealth and perception checks:
1) When you stealth for the first time, how many times after that do you need to make the check until you jump out of your hiding place? So, for example, if I was hiding behind a corner (cover) and I was in dim light (concealment), and an enemy walked up behind the corner, would I have to make another stealth check?
2) When it says in the stealth description:
Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had concealment.
What does that mean? You can stealth when you have concealment, but why do you have concealment when you stealth?
3) Can you stealth in the middle of combat?
1) If you're not moving, you just make your initial check and use that if someone comes by.
2) it's just clarifying that you have all the benefits of concealment if they aren't aware of you. They lose their Dex bonus to AC, etc.
3) Yes, if you can break line of sight via cover or concealment, subject to GM ruling. This doesn't make them forget where they lost sight of you, of course, so they may chase you down and find you.
1) If that someone comes by, and they already made a perception check before when they didn't have line of sight, but just to see if they could hear you, do they make a new perception check, since now they have a better chance of seeing you?
2) Do they gain the benefits of concealment or only you, and if you attack them do you get a surprise round?
3) When they do chase you down, can they make a new perception check every turn. This is actually a general question, can you make a perception check every turn if you know someone if there?
And finally, (I know this is a bit off topic) how far can some one see in bright, normal, and dim light, I know you get concealment in dim light, but how far can you actually see?
1. In the discussion that led up to the big stealth errata, SKR said that technically he would check any time the conditions of the scenario changed. So if someone had a distance penalty to their Perception check, and moved closer so that the penalty was gone, they would roll again to see if they spot you. For ease of use, however, he said that one check would be sufficient at the point when the person trying to spot you had the best odds of doing so.
2. Concealment in this manner was also somewhat due to the stealth errata. Effectively if a target isn't aware of you, you have concealment from it.
3. Yes; if there are people aware of you, you have to break line of sight with some level of concealment, at which point you can make a stealth check and force another opposed roll; if they failed the roll, they have effectively lost track of you (although as Bizbag points out they still know where you were, so unless you move they can just walk up to where you're hiding and find you again.
As to your second series of questions:
2.1. See my answer to #1. Technically yes, any time conditions change (i.e., they would have a better chance of spotting you) they could get a new check.
2.2. No, they do not gain concealment against you; the concealment here is sort of 'virtual', in that it really just means they aren't aware of your location. If you're in the midst of combat, you cannot get a surprise round, but since they're not aware of you, they would be denied their DEX bonus against your first attack against them (with everything that entails, including sneak attack damage).
2.3. Yes, the Perception skill states in the Try Again section that you can always try the roll again, as you're always capable of spotting something you missed the first time.
[edit]
And the bonus question: How far you can see actually depends on the light source. Bright light and normal light - the former being a bright sunny day (or equivalent to a Daylight spell) with the latter being sunlight filtered through a forest canopy or with overcast conditions - normally lets a human see up to 60 feet clearly and another 120 feat as dim or shadowed. A torch (or a light spell) is effectively dim light, and grants 20 feet of clear vision, and another 40 feet of dim sight; a bullseye or hooded lantern or a sunrod is also dim light but grants 30 feet\60 feet.
2) When it says in the stealth description:
Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had concealment.
What does that mean? You can stealth when you have concealment, but why do you have concealment when you stealth?
Xaratherus, has it right. I would point out that the actual errata for Stealth says you are treated as if you have Total Concealment. The PRD still only says Concealment, but the official CBR Errata says Total Concealment. It's a minor difference but important. Anyway it just means if they fail to beat your Stealth with Perception they can't see you.
how far can some one see in bright, normal, and dim light, I know you get concealment in dim light, but how far can you actually see?
This is incredibly situational. However, since I don't know of any place where it is spelled out, I would base it off the Perception skill. The DC to spot a creature standing out in the open is 0. That DC gets more difficult by +1 for every 10 feet something is from you. So I would say you can see as far away as you could spot a creature standing out in the open if you rolled a 20. Thus if your Perception ranks are 0 and you roll a 20 you could see up to 200 feet away in bright or normal light, as long as there are no other obstructions. If you have a 30 in Perception you could see something as far as 500 feet away.
Now, this isn't perfect by any means, but I think it would work well as a basic rule of thumb when dealing with open flat land. If you are on high ground or looking at something in the sky you can see movement and small shapes a lot further away. For instance I would say you can probably see a Dragon flying through the sky at about the same distance you would see an airplane flying, according to Google, between 220 and 300 miles. I think in those situations it's up to GM discretion.
2) When it says in the stealth description:
Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had concealment.
What does that mean? You can stealth when you have concealment, but why do you have concealment when you stealth?
Xaratherus, has it right. I would point out that the actual errata for Stealth says you are treated as if you have Total Concealment. The PRD still only says Concealment, but the official CBR Errata says Total Concealment. It's a minor difference but important. Anyway it just means if they fail to beat your Stealth with Perception they can't see you.
how far can some one see in bright, normal, and dim light, I know you get concealment in dim light, but how far can you actually see?This is incredibly situational. However, since I don't know of any place where it is spelled out, I would base it off the Perception skill. The DC to spot a creature standing out in the open is 0. That DC gets more difficult by +1 for every 10 feet something is from you. So I would say you can see as far away as you could spot a creature standing out in the open if you rolled a 20. Thus if your Perception ranks are 0 and you roll a 20 you could see up to 200 feet away in bright or normal light, as long as there are no other obstructions. If you have a 30 in Perception you could see something as far as 500 feet away.
Now, this isn't perfect by any means, but I think it would work well as a basic rule of thumb when dealing with open flat land. If you are on high ground or looking at something in the sky you can see movement and small shapes a lot further away. For instance I would say you can probably see a Dragon flying through the sky at about the same distance you would see an airplane flying, according to Google, between 220 and 300 miles. I think in those situations it's up to GM discretion.
Okay, so does that mean that you have what the book says as concealment, or is it just saying you have concealment as a way of saying people can't see you. And also, if you're in stealth and you have concealment, could people attack you with a 20% miss chance, and if not, why would they say you have concealment if no one can attack you, so do you just ignore the 20% miss chance when you're in stealth?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is why it's important to specify Total Concealment vs. Concealment. Concealment means you are still somewhat visible and get a 20% miss chance if someone knows where you are and tries to attack you. Stealth says you are treated as having Total Concealment. That means you are not visible to anyone who fails their Perception roll and IF someone manages to figure out which square you are in but still can't see you then you would get the 50% miss chance not 20%.
A person could attack you, if they know what square you are in. If they spot you with Perception, you no longer have Stealth relative to them, and no longer have concealment. However, if they pinpoint you some other way but still can't see you, then you still have total concealment. They can swing at you, but they can't see you and take the 50% miss chance.
As for why the designers decided to add the total concealment bit, I think it was to point to the fact that if you successfully use Stealth, no one can see you. And so they could facilitate movement between points of actual cover/concealment with the Breaking Stealth rules.
...
You can go HERE to download errata documents for the CRB which do specify Total Concealment, even if PRD only says concealment for whatever reason. I've pointed it out on the PRD corrections thread.
To correct\add on to something Shadowlord said: If you successfully use Stealth, no one can detect you through mundane senses. They can neither see nor hear you, and (without some other supernatural means of detection that overrides stealth) are unaware you are there until you attack them or take some other action that would make them aware of you.
