I have a level 10 Life Oracle I'm playing in a WOTW campaign. I hate it. I can never get past spell saves. Not _EVER_.
I have 23 Charisma with my items and stats. Saves for spells are between 17 for level 1 spells, 21 for level 5. Through-out my character's career I have landed _maybe_ 20% of my spells. I can NEVER overcome monster saves. It's infuriating and makes me feel like I'm just a buff bot. I don't understand how a spellcaster is ever supposed to land anything, when monster saves scale MUCH faster than spell progression and caster stat.
I have a variety of debuff spells, targeting both fort and will. I don't have any reflex spells, but I'm picking my upcoming spells for reflex.
Spells, not including buffs are:
Burning Disarm (I can land this!)
Obscuring mist
Sanctuary (now useless)
Hold Person (They always make the save)
Staggering Fall (I land the 1d6 dmg, never the staggered condition)
Archon's Aura (They always make the save)
Blindness-Deafness (I very occasionally land this)
Prayer (no saves! yea!)
Aura of Doom (They are usually immune or make the save)
Please help. An oracle doesn't really have enough spells to use focus spell effectively.
I like my party, the RP of my character, but the mechanics of playing a caster is just stupid. I hate this.
Please help.
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First, learn to target saving throws where your enemy is weakest. Second, your casting stat should be 24 or better by your level. Third, take spell focus rather you want to or not. Casters that want their saves to work really have to work at it. And even after this your low level spells probably won't hit often, that is why you get higher level spells.
All that aside, spells with saves are, generally suboptimal, especially if they don't have an effect when the save is made. Consider spells that don't have a save.
Try the metamagic feat "persistent spell."
I played a conjurer through Carrion Crown, and one of his go-to spells for the better part of his career was Persistent Glitterdust.
But yes, I'd pick a school or two to focus on, pick offensive spells from that school, and grab the relevant spell focus feats.
You need to up your Casting stat. Take spell focus. Pick spells that either don't have saves or have effects even if they save against it.
Typically targeting Reflex saves is the best save to target. Typically fighter types or things with BIG HD have high fort saves so target their will. And frail looking Wizards have Lower fort saves and higher wills. Also most BBEGs will have outrageous saves but the minions accompanying him don't. Typically you will target the adds.
I really like the spell Silence.
Summoning spells are nice spells that don't require saves but You will want to invest feats into it for Augmented Summoning.
Terrible Remorse is a good spell even after errata. as it has an effect even if they save. If you up your saves and they fail...its bad for them.
What others have said: spells with reduced effect even on a successful save, no-save spells, summoning, etc.
Fort save spells are tough because most enemies have a good fort, aside from casters. Supposedly will saves are easiest to land at lower levels, but where you are creatures tend to start having low ref saves, especially larger creatures-- those ones will have abysmal touch AC as well, something to exploit. I'm a particular fan of Bestow Curse :)
(A) Make your DCs better by upping your casting stat and/or spell focus.
(B) Focus on weak saves; reflex is usually a good bet
(C) Make spells trigger lots of saves; persistent spell, AoE spells, etc. are good for this
(D) Don't neglect no-save options: buffs, summons, etc. Illusions might even help since the wave isn't automatic.
Thank you for the advice. As you can tell by my post it was post-game night last night, and I was a little frustrated. I landed a single spell (Archon's aura) in the last combat of the night. If it wasn't for Blessing of Fervor and Prayer, I don't know what I'd be doing.
Does anyone have a recommendation on what school I should start focusing on? This was my first character, so I picked thematic spells, not necessarily the most effective. He's super charismatic, and evil as hell. I have quite a few necromancy spells, and intended on picking up a few more. The other I have a lot of is enchantment, because they seemed powerful and were very thematic. I'm regretting those now because they are all will saves.
I haven't gone summons because my DM has basically said don't go summons. It's an evil campaign and he said he will just cast protection from evil anytime someone summons, thus negating the damage aspect of the summons.
I've read a few guides, but I'm finding their cavalier assessment of spells doesn't reflect the reality of the game world we are in. I get so few spells each level (supplemented by low level scrolls), that I can't afford to get stuff like "Share Languages, Communal" or "Blessing of Freedom."
Spell Focus (School?)
AOE Options
No saves? (There are a few, debilitating portent will be next level)
Rod of persistent spell (That's on my wish list, but our DM is pretty conservative with gold rewards - we each have earned about 45k over our careers)
Is it worth picking up a few blaster spells (Flame strike)? They tend to focus reflex.
Just because it it an evil campaign doesn't mean that anything you summon is going to be warded by protection form evil. Protection from Evil specifically states that summoned creatures that are not evil are immune to the warding effect. Summon neutral creatures, and you are fine, unless the DM is just breaking the rules to ban summoning.
Our reading of the Summon rules state that creatures that get the fiendish template always match the alignment of the summmoner, which means all neutrals become evil.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster
Thus, protection from evil completely negates the natural attack damage of a summon by an evil character. As we are fighting mostly clerics, paladins, and angels, everybody and their brother has protection from evil.
Summon Elementals or Mephits then. They are specifically exempt from the rule that causes them to match your alignment as unlike the vermin or animals on the summon lists, they do not have an asterisk.
Imbicatus wrote: Just because it it an evil campaign doesn't mean that anything you summon is going to be warded by protection form evil. Protection from Evil specifically states that summoned creatures that are not evil are immune to the warding effect. Summon neutral creatures, and you are fine, unless the DM is just breaking the rules to ban summoning. Unfortunately, most creatures are called with an aligment that matcher yours, so protection from evil does limit you pretty decently.
However, not everyone is a caster, and idealy your allies can cast a high lvl dispel magic if the need arises, so it is not a bad choice to take augment summoning and prepare some SM spells.
Other than that, good feats to take include Persistent spell, Piercing spell, spell penetration and bouncing spell. Dazing spell is also amazing if you have and AoE spell targeting reflex saves. Quicken spell is also mandatory by this lvl, throwing two spells per round will increase your chance to do something productive.
The arcane bloodline is also a great pick from the eldrich heritage feats. If you are a half elf you only want the Arcane Bond, but if you are anything else, you can take all 5 of the feats if yu wish. It is that good. Note that you can use your familiar to intimidate the enemies and possibly lower their saves.
Ariantar wrote: Thus, protection from evil completely negates the natural attack damage of a summon by an evil character. One way to bypass this is to summon monsters with weapons.
Summon Monster V has babau demons (longspear), bearded devils (glaive + infernal wound) and salamanders (spear + fire damage).
Sadly, the standard roster of lower versions of the spell seems to be all natural attack monsters.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
As a suggestion, any spell you really need to land (I'm looking at you dispel magic) is much better fom a spontaneous caster who can simply try again and again until it sticks.
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If your DM really doesn't want to deal with summons, then respect his wishes and don't use summons. They can really slow down the game, especially if it's your first time playing a caster.
You've probably seen all this already but just in case.
Some of my favourite spells are Spiritual Weapon/Ally, since they give you at least something to do on each of your turns, and Ally counts as a flanking buddy for your melee friends/rogues. You can even flavour them as binding a soul temporarily into service or something, if that fits the character. A guy in a thread I saw a little while ago mentioned combining those spells with the Toppling Spell metamagic, which I can't believe I never thought of and now really want to try for myself. Stacking flanking and prone bonuses for an ally would be quite nice. Doesn't work if your GM insists that it has to be wisdom that's used rather than your casting stat though. (Guy in the thread also mentioned that Blade Barrier at level 12+ would benefit from Toppling too, which is even more amazing!)
Silence can be situationally really nice to have, maybe cast on something like an archer friend's arrow just before he shoots at a caster enemy to avoid the save being an issue?
Much love for Bestow Curse, it's just so good. I'd go for it over blindness/deafness. Maybe ask to swap it out if you're not happy? Though admittedly range might be an issue, but you're a life oracle! You can come back from anything. Or use a Reach rod if you have the gold for it.
Multitarget options are always good, so a Bouncing rod for your Hold Person or whatever as mentioned above is nice.
I might have missed it, but what's the 5th level spell you chose? I have a soft spot for Boneshatter, it always does at least something and is just visually really evil/fun. Greater Command/Forbid is also a nice option for groups. ("Just walk through that blade barrier again for me, there's a good puppet")
Sooooo...does your GM roll saves openly?
Some GMs hate save-or-die spells, and fudge villain saving throw rolls in the name of drama. Do other players in your game use save-or-die effects, and if so, do your enemies almost always make their saves vs. them?
If that were the case, I would expect Burning Disarm to work frequently, since it’s got that damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t effect, and I’d expect Hold Person to never go through. Which matches up pretty well with your experience.
What could you do in the face of such iniquity? Well, your buffs are probably winning fights, aren’t they? But you want to lay down some hurt, I hear you. Spiritual Weapon is my suggestion. No save, useful against almost any enemy, keeps stabbing while you do other things.
Except spiritual weapon uses Wisdom bonus for attacks and, as far as I know, hasn't had any changes to be better for an oracle.
minoritarian wrote: Except spiritual weapon uses Wisdom bonus for attacks and, as far as I know, hasn't had any changes to be better for an oracle. Yeah I mentioned that it relies on the GM NOT insisting on using wisdom like a ninny. =P
As a general rule, don't attack saves unless you build to be VERY GOOD at attacking saves.
If you started with a CHA of 20, added +1 to it at levels 4 and 8, and had a level 10 WBL headband (+4), your charisma should be 26 (+8 mod). If you took spell focus and greater in one school, your level 1 save DC in that school would be DC 21, and your level 5 would be DC 25. Add persistant metamagic and the enemies have to beat that twice. If you have enough knowledges to be able to figure out the enemy's weak saves consistently and can target those, you'll see a huge difference over your current situation.
As a general trend, will saves are weakest most often in the low levels and reflex saves are weakest in the high levels.
Ariantar wrote: Thank you for the advice. As you can tell by my post it was post-game night last night, and I was a little frustrated. You've had a lot of good advice here and I would be frustrated as well. Sometimes you just have bad luck. I had a gnome sorcerer once who started with a 20 CHA (20 point buy) and spell focus (illusion) to focus on color spray at early levels. I was only able to get that past saves a couple of times ever. Either a fudging DM or really bad luck.
After that I thought about making a sorcerer only focused on no save spells, but never did.
I focus on a mix of save targets with my current sorcerer, but have more reflex targets than any (normally augmented by dazing spell). I would agree persistent spell is an awesome metamagic addition.
Again, thanks for all the great tips here.
Next level I get Imp. Eldritch Heritage Arcane (extra spells). These are my planned upcoming spells, with the first spell listed per level as a priority. Again, any and all experience or advice on these choices would help me out.
Feats:
11 - Eld. Her.
13 - Spell Focus Necro
15 - Greater Spell Focus Necro
17 - Great. Eld Heritage (Necro)
2nd level spells:
Silence
3rd lvl:
Bestow Curse
Invisibility Purge
4th lvl:
Debilitating Portent
Spiritual Ally
5th lvl:
Command, Greater OR Boneshatter? I can't decide which I should get first
Righteous Might (I dipped in Diabolist, so I've got that imp animal companion)
Sorc lvl 4 (lvl 11):
Enervation
Sorc lvl 5 (lvl 13):
Suffocation
Focusing on Necro boosts:
Boneshatter
Suffocation
Aura of Doom
Bestow Curse
Blindness-Deafness
This seems pretty good? Maybe?
Again, thanks for all this great info based off experience, as opposed to just guessing. I appreciate it.
Also I just discovered I didn't add my level 8 stat. Oops.
I would Get a way to quicken that Enervation. You where talking about Landing spells. Give the negative 1-4 levels will lower their saves.
I don't think Righteous might is a good spell even with share spell. I think Wall of stone or Summon monster 5 would be a better fit. Level 5 SM give you Babau, Kyton, Shadow Mastiff and bearded Devils as go to baddies. It can also summon 1d3 Cerberi which with a failed save on the bite will dimensional anchor the target. All in all summon monsters put more spells on your spell list.
Good tactic to put silence on your imp who is invisible and let him move into their space and shadow the enemy casters.
I'm also a fan of Dispel magic Over invisibility purge. Your Imp has detect magic...he can locate a illusion Aura that outlines an invisible creature and you can cast dispel magic on him. Dispel also solves other problems and Strips them of buffs. Another spell i might recommend is Chain of Perdition as it is combat maneuvers for the Oracle and Cleric.
You can also equip your Imp with a wand of Glitterdust so he can revel invisible enemies.
If saves are your issue then you really want Persistent Spell. I definately would not rely on a rod. You want it as a feat known. By level 15 you want to have 3 metamagic feats in order to be able to take Spell Perfection for your best removal spell. I would recommend having Dazing Spell and Quicken Spell. You may need to retrain some of your earlier feats to accommodate these as you also want Greater Spell Focus in the school of your Spell Perfection choice by 15. If it allows SR then you also want at least Spell Penetration.
Fruian Thistlefoot wrote: I'm also a fan of Dispel magic Over invisibility purge. Your Imp has detect magic...he can locate a illusion Aura that outlines an invisible creature and you can cast dispel magic on him. Dispel also solves other problems and Strips them of buffs. It takes 3 rounds for the Imp to pinpoint the location of a magical aura and only if it is within 60'. I wouldnt rely on Dispel Magic for invisibility removal. Invisibility Purge is a great spell and is well worth picking up.
In terms of spells I would recommend the following:
Plane Shift - great for travel, even better as a removal spell, especially against monsters that carry no loot for you to lose. This covers pretty much all gaint animals, magical beasts and other such brutes which also tend to have low will saves. It is amusingly one of the easiest ways to get rid of the Tarrasque.
Word Spells - you are an Oracle and so are not limited to picking a word spell based on your alignment. Pick whichever one is likely to be most useful. You can get a bit crazy with these and Spell Perfection increasing the caster level significantly.
Repulsion - an incredibly potent defensive spell against anything without a ranged attack. Advise your party to invest in some bows to take maximum advantage of it.
Blade Barrier - decent area control with damage rider. Especially good if you have party members who can bull rush, telekinesis or otherwise drive enemies back into it.
Anti Life Shell - Repulsions smaller brother but with no Save. Makes fighting medium sized non reach melee enemies comical. Less likely to annoy your party like Repulsion can.
Planar Ally - your GM may not want you using summons but these let you bring along an extra assistant to help out, a bit like having a cohort. As they are called and not summoned then Protection from X also doesnt apply.
Animate Dead - a bit like Planar Ally but you dont have to pay them. Bloody Skeletons are even better as they keep coming back after they are destroyed.
Holy Smite/Order's Wrath - modest damage but both of them bring very good riders, Blind and Daze are strong status effects and you can also attach Dazing Spell to these.
Grace - low level but extremely useful for getting around the battlefield, especially if you are wanting to use touch attacks.
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