I wonder why 14 wis, too...
And I don't consider that one to be too strong, either.
Why does he want Wisdom to be 14?
Will saves? Sense Motive check? Perception?Multiclassing cleric?
Gah! There are times I forget the paladin now uses Charisma for his spellcasting instead of Wisdom.
Still, getting better at sense motive is never a bad plan.
14 wis because paladin spells go up to level 4, so you can cast them without a statboost item (pretty significant difference betwenn buying +x cha and buying +x cha and wis
giving the statbooster first to someone else can work, but again: the characters always consider whats most effective, even if the players dont like it. they fight for their lives every day, the characters optimize within their limits (and item distributen is pretty much in their limits).
now for the scaling: every single attribute difference between character will stay in effekt no matter how high your level gets. Yes, your weapon damage scales linar with strength, but all your saves, your AC, your chance to hit, your skill checks, everything else scales by 5% per +1. A character with +4 Str over another character will always have a 10% better chance to hit the enemy, doesn't matter if they are at 40/44 or 14/18 strength
the only way real way to solve OPs problem is adjusting his attributes to be more in line with the rest of the party. every other opion feels like gimping yourself on purpose (wich sucks both from a player point of view and from a roleplaying perspective). even if you yourself are fine with gimping your own effectiveness, the other players will know, you are holding back, this is as bad or worse as constantly stealing the spotlight
*incoming snark*
Don't worry about being too strong. As a paladin if you look at someone the wrong way you will inevitably fall and lose all those nifty powers anyway. Just look at the poor sucker who forgot to buy his friends free drinks and gambled ....
*snark ended*
on a serious note, over the long run you'll be fine. There are some really suboptimal choices you could make that'll help balance you a bit. Grab a random exotic two-hander and use it anyway. The -4 will balance your stats, and you can always switch when you need to be useful.
Without any full casters you'll probably always shine in your party.
I love being in this predicament, your character can work just fine without too much effort.
I would spend some feats on non comabt stuff. Unsanctioned Knowledge (UM), Cosmopolitan (APG) or some skills enhancing feats like Alertness could really add to the fun of things, helping you shine not just in combat but in memorable roleplay encounters!
I think everyone agrees it has nothing to do with being a paladin and always to do with having super stats.
A Magus or Monk with those abilities would be much more encounter destroyers.
A Tetori would grab the BBEG to death without even needing to worry about he trying to escape.
A Lore Warden could perma trip everyone with a reach weapon.
Any caster would end a 3rd lv encounter with 1 spell anyway... specially with +5 on DC due to 20 casting score.
Even a 3rd level fighter could use this absurd stats to have unbeatable AC, use medium armor for 30ft move and kill everybody before the party could even react.
I asked my DM if I could have the stats of the OP and he told me, no. You get a 4 point buy.
So...averages out I guess.
11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10.
I asked my DM if I could have the stats of the OP and he told me, no. You get a 4 point buy.
So...averages out I guess.
11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10.
We didn't use a point buy system. :)
You can always commit an evil act (or one so condoned by the GM) so as to loose all your powers. As mentioned before, the fastest way to achieve this would be to gamble, take two whores the same day and/or refuse to buy a drink to your friends ;)
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I still like the idea of going into Oracle, from here on out.
You are "Cursed", so it at least seems you powered down, and suddenly, your role is more flexible.
You will be able to use those needed restoration, and resurrection scrolls, and still put up a fight.
You can basically be the team's healer, but without being the guy who stands around waiting for someone to get hurt.
Add buff spells, and you help everyone else do, what they do, better.
Instead of stealing the spotlight, you enable others to have it.
Don't change your stats. Having that "healer" role, will make others appreciate your good stats.
We didn't use a point buy system. :)I asked my DM if I could have the stats of the OP and he told me, no. You get a 4 point buy.
So...averages out I guess.
11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10.
I know you didn't, it's okay it was a joke. And my DM is mean.
I know you didn't, it's okay it was a joke. And my DM is mean.We didn't use a point buy system. :)I asked my DM if I could have the stats of the OP and he told me, no. You get a 4 point buy.
So...averages out I guess.
11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10.
but those stats are only a 3 point buy ;)
The point buy system is infallible.
The point buy system is infallible.Unless your party contains a wizard, druid, paladin, and monk.
What if it contains a Wizard/Druid/Paladin/Monk?
but those stats are only a 3 point buy ;)I know you didn't, it's okay it was a joke. And my DM is mean.We didn't use a point buy system. :)I asked my DM if I could have the stats of the OP and he told me, no. You get a 4 point buy.
So...averages out I guess.
11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10.
Shh, I am trying to fake out the DM and get more points.
I think the fact that you have a 54 point build is the problem, not the class. Also the fact that you seem to have absolute maximum HP for your level as well.
LOL - no kidding, eh?
What if it contains a Wizard/Druid/Paladin/Monk?The point buy system is infallible.Unless your party contains a wizard, druid, paladin, and monk.
I'm glad someone else gets it.
The point is, comparing rolled stats to PBE as if it defines how powerful a character is is a complete joke to me. What ultimately equates to the feats Toughness and Iron Will for free hardly breaks a character.
Cleave sucks, but you should be Power Attacking, just about all the time.
Why do you not have Furious Focus?
*Guy comes to forums asking for help on not being OP*
*People give him advice on making his build stronger*#WelcomeToPaizo
I see super stats like that as an opportunity to make something super MAD or based more on flavor (in this case it was also a Gestalt game...yeah, so it was a toss-up between Kensai Magus/Monk and the more synergistic Gunslinger/Inquisitor into Grand Marshal PrC. The latter won out because LAWWWWWWW).
This. When you roll great, it's an excuse to play that kobold berserker you've been wanting to try out.
Sometimes I wish GMs could just give you 52 Point Buy and trust that you'd have fun making an impractical concept. Then I look at my half-orc druid with the 20 Strength and think...
"Yeah, I could be trusted with that."
I asked my DM if I could have the stats of the OP and he told me, no. You get a 4 point buy.
So...averages out I guess.
11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10.
Wait...that's 3 Point Buy, not 4. And what about racial bonuses?
Shh, I am trying to fake out the DM and get more points.
But...you're getting less! This is wrong!
I'm missing the point, aren't I?
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Cleave sucks, but you should be Power Attacking, just about all the time.
Why do you not have Furious Focus?
*Guy comes to forums asking for help on not being OP*
*People give him advice on making his build stronger*
#WelcomeToPaizo
You must have missed my other posts.
Eventually, the martial PC, will suffer, and I suggested he go Oracle, to be a party booster, instead of a spotlight stealer, which he was worried about being.
You must have missed my other paragraph.
Lots of good advice so far.
In addition to what's been said, you might want to consider picking up a a heavy shield and one-handed weapon.
The strategy works like this-
You'll do less damage, which gives the rest of the party more sway over what happens.
Your AC will be higher, which means less HP loss for you, so less Channels and Healing spells conserved.
Then, when you get to the boss fight your party will have more overall resources left because of your defensive tactics, and you can pull out your greatsword and Smite for all your paladin glory.
Basically, you play it safer and give other players time in the spotlight until you get to the Big Bad Evil Guy (which, as a paladin, is your time to shine).
You don't need to change anything else about your build, you just need to change your tactics to be more accommodating.
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What if it contains a Wizard/Druid/Paladin/Monk?The point buy system is infallible.Unless your party contains a wizard, druid, paladin, and monk.I'm glad someone else gets it.
The point is, comparing rolled stats to PBE as if it defines how powerful a character is is a complete joke to me. What ultimately equates to the feats Toughness and Iron Will for free hardly breaks a character.
Then you are being disingenuous.
Having all those points in his build does make a huge difference. In a standard 20 point buy he could have that same 18+2 strength to start and then he would have 3 points to spend on everything else. Sure he could tank stats to get more points, but even in doing so, his Dex, Con and Cha would still be significantly lower, thus reducing his AC, HPs, Saves, Skills, Divine Grace mods, LoH uses and so on. Quite a bit more than equating to free Toughness and Iron Will.
Point buy systems are far from perfect, but they do serve as both a general gauge of power and ability, as well as serving as an equalizer between characters. And we can dispense with the tired old "doesn't matter because martials suck and every spellcaster can do everything anyway" argument as well since in this case the entire group is primarily martial, and the OP felt his character was vastly outshining the rest and his stats are that much better. A level playing field in stats would have a great impact on that situation.
you miss a lot.:/
Excuse me? Look, it's not my fault I roll so many 1s on my attack rolls!
What if it contains a Wizard/Druid/Paladin/Monk?The point buy system is infallible.Unless your party contains a wizard, druid, paladin, and monk.I'm glad someone else gets it.
The point is, comparing rolled stats to PBE as if it defines how powerful a character is is a complete joke to me. What ultimately equates to the feats Toughness and Iron Will for free hardly breaks a character.
Then you are being disingenuous.
Having all those points in his build does make a huge difference. In a standard 20 point buy he could have that same 18+2 strength to start and then he would have 3 points to spend on everything else. Sure he could tank stats to get more points, but even in doing so, his Dex, Con and Cha would still be significantly lower, thus reducing his AC, HPs, Saves, Skills, Divine Grace mods, LoH uses and so on. Quite a bit more than equating to free Toughness and Iron Will.
Point buy systems are far from perfect, but they do serve as both a general gauge of power and ability, as well as serving as an equalizer between characters. And we can dispense with the tired old "doesn't matter because martials suck and every spellcaster can do everything anyway" argument as well since in this case the entire group is primarily martial, and the OP felt his character was vastly outshining the rest and his stats are that much better. A level playing field in stats would have a great impact on that situation.
Point buy is such an inherently flawed system I would rather hand out an array of all 18's before using it. It completely exasperates the difference between MAD and SAD classes and claiming that it balances characters is a complete joke. It is basically communism, forcing classes that need multiple stats to purposely use lower stats than what make their class abilities actually viable, and perfectly facilitating classes that only need one or two decent stats.
Spellcasting set aside, you can still see a wizard with a 20 INT in a 15 point buy where a paladin would be rocking 15's at best in his STR and CHA. And god for bid the paladin player try and have a decent CON for hitpoints or a decent DEX for AC.
If you want to sell me on the Point Buy System, invent one that gives different points to different classes the same way different classes get different starting ages, starting gold, and starting gear as part of their class abilities.
A wizard doesn't even have to pay for his damn spellbook.
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Buuuut they, like the paladin and fighter, still fall prey to the power creep that casters experience. Damage, control, utility; spell casters are better at all of these things. They will even frequently wind up having higher HP, higher AC, and ridiculous amounts of DR.Saves on a Paladin make the class distinctly more powerful than either of those two imo. Two good saves and CHA to all saves makes them significantly stronger than Barbarians and Fighters. Who cares if the BBEG Wizard can OTK the paladin if the spell won't actually affect them? And that applies to casters of every alignment too.
Granted, actually killing something non-evil is a lot harder and no one beats the Casters in utility tho.
It is possible to get a barbarian's saves significantly higher than those of a paladin, and is in fact an extremely easy thing to accomplish. On top of that there are numerous ways to simply ignore a failed save, gain power from it, etc. As for the wizard, you underestimate the amount of spells with no save that will still just instantaneously shut paladins, or really any class (besides barbarian since they can shrug off even those sorts of spells) down.
Thank you, Blackbloodtroll! I think I'll look into the Oracle a lot more, do you have any suggestions for the curse?
I'm also going to try Doomed Hero's idea for a session too! :D
Legalistic is a good one for Paladins.
Point buy is such an inherently flawed system I would rather hand out an array of all 18's before using it. It completely exasperates the difference between MAD and SAD classes and claiming that it balances characters is a complete joke. It is basically communism, forcing classes that need multiple stats to purposely use lower stats than what make their class abilities actually viable, and perfectly facilitating classes that only need one or two decent stats.
You know, I'm not a fan of point buy for the reason that it exacerbates problems between MAD and SAD classes too. But calling it communism is pretty ridiculous, particularly when, if it actually were communism, classes would get what they need rather than get the same.
Point buy is such an inherently flawed system I would rather hand out an array of all 18's before using it. It completely exasperates the difference between MAD and SAD classes and claiming that it balances characters is a complete joke. It is basically communism, forcing classes that need multiple stats to purposely use lower stats than what make their class abilities actually viable, and perfectly facilitating classes that only need one or two decent stats.You know, I'm not a fan of point buy for the reason that it exacerbates problems between MAD and SAD classes too. But calling it communism is pretty ridiculous, particularly when, if it actually were communism, classes would get what they need rather than get the same.
Contemporary Political Communism vs theoretical Socio-Economic Communism has this funny little line where on one side you are absolutely right and on the other I am, and oddly both can be described using the same word.
heh, English.
The more I look at it the more I believe the game functions better if no one is permitted higher then a 17 (after racial) as a starting stat. Particularly at low levels, but throughout the game it just makes such a difference. No matter whether you roll, do point buy or use arrays, capping stats at a +3 bonus to start with makes the math work out far more evenly.
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It's either Point Buy or Rolling -
If you want to balance the party’s stats Point Buy is the way to go. Otherwise you have a superhero with a ridiculous 54 point buy and other players with 15 - 20. As you increase in levels, you get stat modifiers and it shouldn't be a problem to buy a headband, belt or other magical means to increase your core stats.
If all the PCs have superhero stats then the GM will have to modify every encounter to balance the fights. That’s a fair system, unless you like playing all your games on easy mode and don’t like to be challenged.
I’d advise the Gm to consider changing all the PCs to a point buy, or live with the fact that they are your Paladin’s sidekicks.
I've become extermely partial to generous point buy (25-30) with hard caps on maximums and minimums. Be MAD friendly without the starting 20s that SAD classes will have in such a situation. As much as I like the excitement of rolling for stats, if balance is your objective it simply doesnt work.
It's either Point Buy or Rolling -
If you want to balance the party’s stats Point Buy is the way to go. Otherwise you have a superhero with a ridiculous 54 point buy and other players with 15 - 20. As you increase in levels, you get stat modifiers and it shouldn't be a problem to buy a headband, belt or other magical means to increase your core stats.
If all the PCs have superhero stats then the GM will have to modify every encounter to balance the fights. That’s a fair system, unless you like playing all your games on easy mode and don’t like to be challenged.
I’d advise the Gm to consider changing all the PCs to a point buy, or live with the fact that they are your Paladin’s sidekicks.
The point buy system is infallible.
Stat Array is more even handed because it doesn't allow max dumping or maximizing. YOu simply target the point buy, and hand out the scores. Players then customize by race and as they level.
It's a big cookie cutter, but certainly more even-handed the SAD vs MAD advantage.
==Aelryinth
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Thanks, stat array works too.
Player choice, I guess that would depend on some basic guidelines and the players, otherwise the choice maybe a 54 point buy ;)
Regardless, by 12th level a character should have enough gold to purchase a +6 increase to their primary stat or +4/+4 to two stats and 3 additional increases at 4, 8 and 12th level. The Wizard with a 17 Int on a 20 point buy can get a +6 headband add 3 from leveling and now has a 26 Int at 12th without using any other means to get additional enhancements (books, ioun stones etc.).
Lots of good advice so far.
In addition to what's been said, you might want to consider picking up a a heavy shield and one-handed weapon.
The strategy works like this-
You'll do less damage, which gives the rest of the party more sway over what happens.
Your AC will be higher, which means less HP loss for you, so less Channels and Healing spells conserved.
Then, when you get to the boss fight your party will have more overall resources left because of your defensive tactics, and you can pull out your greatsword and Smite for all your paladin glory.
Basically, you play it safer and give other players time in the spotlight until you get to the Big Bad Evil Guy (which, as a paladin, is your time to shine).
You don't need to change anything else about your build, you just need to change your tactics to be more accommodating.
I would personally go with this idea, though the oracle approach could be interesting as well, especially with the lack of casters in the party. Having the GM focus a bit more on neutral or even good foes would be a good solution as well. The advantage with these is that they don't gimp your character but rather shift the focus of your character and/or the campaign to something that allows the rest of the party a chance to show off, something a lot more palatable to pretty much everyone at the table; it's just as distasteful to be the one that forces a player that got lucky on his stats to dumb his character down as it is to be the one that renders the rest of the party useless. In the meantime, use your experience to help out the newer players to help them get the most out of their characters. The high stats are as overpowered as you let them be; I would leave those alone for now as there are better solutions to try first. Most of the issues I'm seeing tend to disappear at higher levels when foes have more options available to them so making super drastic changes doesn't seem necessary just yet; start with the smaller things first, and if it's still a problem at level 7 or so, than you can better see exactly what needs changed.
As for point buy, it has it's place, but I personally will never use it as a DM; it makes most of the more interesting character concepts essentially not possible. People did nothing but roll for stats for years and found ways to make it work; heck, for a while, it wasn't even as generous as 4d6, drop the lowest, and people still found ways to make it work. For PFS or a similar environment, I can see the need for it, but for a home game, I prefer rolling every time; it just allows for a wider variety of characters than point buy ever will, and there are ways to deal with the unevenness of the stats generated without gimping the high roller. I personally do everyone gets one 16, and rolls 2d6+6 5 times; it guarantees one perfectly good stat and still allows for reasonably balanced but not automatically overly strong characters. There are other ways to handle it though, and the usual 4d6, drop the lowest, still works fine as long as you don't expect every character to be exactly equal in every way and the DM knows how to find both the strengths and weaknesses of every character created.
People did nothing but roll for stats for years and found ways to make it work;Mostly by rolling new sets until they got one they liked.
To some degree, but I think people here underestimate how much people found ways to turn apparent weaknesses into something not just playable, but an actual strength, not to mention the DMs that found ways to deal with those that preferred all 14+ stats. Low stats are as bad as your mindset makes them, and while they have never been desired, the original mindset where you worked with what you were given, no matter what it was, was far more capable of working with lower stats effectively than the current views that everything must be equal for people to have fun.
Point buy isn't perfect, but I prefer leagues and bounds over rolling. Especially at low level, I've seen character disparities that are to great for everyone to have a fun time. I remember a barbarian with low rolls just about rage quit when he realized his rage strength was equal to the monks base strength (his highest stat was a 16). No one likes to concentrate on being good at a skill only to find out that a person with unnaturally high rolls beats them with out any effort.
Point buy isn't perfect, but I prefer leagues and bounds over rolling. Especially at low level, I've seen character disparities that are to great for everyone to have a fun time. I remember a barbarian with low rolls just about rage quit when he realized his rage strength was equal to the monks base strength (his highest stat was a 16). No one likes to concentrate on being good at a skill only to find out that a person with unnaturally high rolls beats them with out any effort.
My experience that while there can be disparities so large they have to be dealt with, most of the complaints come from people who don't want to have to deal with them at all, and refuse to even attempt to do so. Again, it comes down to how the DM and the players approach it; some groups and campaigns can tolerate a fairly wide band of stats, others require a more narrow focus. For those times that need the more narrow focus, point buy works fine, but for those times where a wider band would be workable, point buy limits character concepts unnecessarily in my mind.