Snake Style Monk Build [Sorta Min-Maxy]

[Ezzran]

I was bored, and my friend pointed out that Snake Style lets you use a Sense Motive check in place of your AC.
Now, I'm playing a Paladin in a game right now, and her Diplo is +20 at level 5. So I got to thinking: "What if I could do something similar with Sense Motive? I could have one tanky Monk."

So I made a Monk at level 5. I've left a lot of the non-essential stuff blank in the build, but they could easily be adjusted.

To start with, I picked human for the extra feat. Definitely going to be useful with buffing that sense motive. I used a 25 point buy to get the stats, and decided on 14, 14, 10, 10, 17, 12. Then adding the human's +2 into Wisdom for a 19, there.

For traits, I grabbed the Survivor Regional Trait. It gives +1 to sense motive and +1 to initiative. I didn't actually pick up the second, because trait bonuses don't stack, so I figured I'd leave that one open for customization of play style / character personality. If your GM doesn't allow regional traits, there are definitely other traits available, such as World Traveler, for humans.

Starting on feats, I grabbed Improved Unarmed Strike (a prerequisite for Snake Style) and Alertness (+2 to sense motive and perception).

And lastly, skills. As a monk, you get 4 + int mod skill points. As it turns out, you only need 2 for this build: Acrobatics (a prerequisite in the Snake Style chain) and Sense Motive (duh). So I dropped points into those. I left the other two points available for character customization.

At level 2, there's not a lot specific to the build. Upgrade Acrobatics and Sense Motive.

At level 3, pick up Snake Style. This is the earliest you can get it, because you need to have 3 ranks in Sense Motive. Aaand upgrade Sense Motive and Acrobatics again.

At level 4, bump that Wisdom up to 20 and progress your skills.

And at level 5, I grabbed Uncanny Alertness, which gives +1 Sense Motive and Perception, and a +2 bonus to saves against sleep and charm effects.

I haven't done anything with items, yet, but that's in the works.

Possibilities:
--Dump Int to 7. I tend to dislike doing this as a rule, but since you only need 2 skills per level for the build to work, you could totally do that and use the points elsewhere. It would give you enough to bring that wisdom up to 20 at level 1. Personally, I don't think that's worth the lack of versatility in skills, but to each his own.

This is all done without any bonuses granted by any campaign events, btw.

Here's the sheet I used to build it:
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=801677

[Rynjin]

Note Snake Style can only do that once per round, so you may not want to rely on it exclusively.

Might work really well as an Inquisitor (of Irori?) with a Master of Many Styles dip of one or two levels. They get a Sense Motive boost of half their level from Stern Gaze.

Make sure to pick up Snake Fang when possible (another reason MoMS is good, you can skip Snake Sidewind which is meh at best), so you can punish people for missing you (they provoke an AoO if they miss).

Snake Style is my favorite style.

[Shimesen]

you dont need Improved unarmed Strike the feat if you are building a monk. you get it for free at level 1. that is waisted.

also, if you take the monk archetype Master of Many Styles, you can take snake Style at level 1 with your bonus feat. couple that with a style chain such as Panther Style or Crane Style (which both utilize the AoO system) and you create some beastly combos.

also note that using more that one AoO requires you to have Combat Reflexes which you haven't taken by level 5 means you are waisting the second AoO granted by Snake Fang.

try this: build as a MoMS
level 1) Combat Reflexes;Alertness (from human feat); Snake Style (you can take this without meeting prereqs)
level 2) Snake Fang (again, can take without having to meed prereqs)
level 3) Panther Style (you meet all prereqs now since you took CR at lvl 1)
level 4) nada, just keep bumping those skills
level 5) Panther Claw
Level 6) Panther Parry (for monk bonus feat)

[Tels]

Inquisitor that selects the Travel (Trade) domain. Stern Gaze gives you a morale bonus equal to half your Inquisitor level and the Trade Sub-domain power Silver-Tongued Haggler lets you add half your Cleric level a an untyped bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy or Sense Motive checks as a free action 3 + Wisdom Mod times per day.

Take Snake at level 3, then dip MoMS for Snake Fang at level 4. Pick up a Guided Amulet of Mighty fist when you can (not PFS applicable) and use Wisdom for your attack stat.

[Voadam]

Why take alertness with a +2 to sense motive instead of skill focus with a +3 to sense motive?

[Rynjin]

And eventual +6.

And if you're grabbing Skill Focus, take the Focused Study alternate racial trait.

It'll give you another free Skill Focus at 8 (that you can put into Perception, and now you have Better Alertness) and something else at 16th.

[insaneogeddon]

Ezzran wrote:

I was bored, and my friend pointed out that Snake Style lets you use a Sense Motive check in place of your AC.

Now, I'm playing a Paladin in a game right now, and her Diplo is +20 at level 5. So I got to thinking: "What if I could do something similar with Sense Motive? I could have one tanky Monk."

So I made a Monk at level 5. I've left a lot of the non-essential stuff blank in the build, but they could easily be adjusted.

To start with, I picked human for the extra feat. Definitely going to be useful with buffing that sense motive. I used a 25 point buy to get the stats, and decided on 14, 14, 10, 10, 17, 12. Then adding the human's +2 into Wisdom for a 19, there.

For traits, I grabbed the Survivor Regional Trait. It gives +1 to sense motive and +1 to initiative. I didn't actually pick up the second, because trait bonuses don't stack, so I figured I'd leave that one open for customization of play style / character personality. If your GM doesn't allow regional traits, there are definitely other traits available, such as World Traveler, for humans.

Starting on feats, I grabbed Improved Unarmed Strike (a prerequisite for Snake Style) and Alertness (+2 to sense motive and perception).

And lastly, skills. As a monk, you get 4 + int mod skill points. As it turns out, you only need 2 for this build: Acrobatics (a prerequisite in the Snake Style chain) and Sense Motive (duh). So I dropped points into those. I left the other two points available for character customization.

At level 2, there's not a lot specific to the build. Upgrade Acrobatics and Sense Motive.

At level 3, pick up Snake Style. This is the earliest you can get it, because you need to have 3 ranks in Sense Motive. Aaand upgrade Sense Motive and Acrobatics again.

At level 4, bump that Wisdom up to 20 and progress your skills.

And at level 5, I grabbed Uncanny Alertness, which gives +1 Sense Motive and Perception, and a +2 bonus to saves against sleep and charm effects.

I haven't done anything with items, yet, but that's...

Best way and super easy =

Inquisitor gets +1/2 level to sense motive as class ability (and free unarmed strike if worship iori god of humans and perfection!)
The human alternate racial 'focused study' gives a bunch of free skill focuses = + 3 to 6 AC (you will get it anyway so may as well get 3 feats instead of 1!!)
Illumination inquisition (iori) = + 1/2 level to sense motive
Percieve Cues (2nd inquis spell) = + 5 to sense motive and perception

All this for playing a straight inquisitor who just chooses iori, one 2nd level 10 min/pl duration spell and snake style as his 3rd feat. The rest of the build is as you wish.....

If you insist on a monk build check the 'martial artist' archetype. With a level check you could get + 1/2 level to sense motive.

[TheSideKick]

i made a sensei monk, who uses snake style and mantis style.

it kicked ass, very feat heavy build though, and since moms and sensei dont stack i had to dip 2 levels of lore warden to get 2 extra feats.

dwarf

stats:
strength 7
dex 14
con 16
wisdom 20
int 11
cha 5

1 skill focus sense motive
m combat reflexes
3 snake style
5 mantis style
7 style mastery
9 snake sidewinder
11 snake fang
f mantis terror
f mantis wisdom

he uses wisdom for attack, defense, and snake style. wisdom is his main stat for stunning fist, sense motive and ac. if you're playing a home game you need a guided AOMF, or if you're playing PFS then you need an agile AOMF.

hes not a massive damage dealer, but at 12th hes near unhitable and his stunning fists land very often. then you have the shenanigans of playing a sensei, handing out truestrike, barkskin, and restoration like candy.

[insaneogeddon]

As martial artist adds to AC anyway and as monks don't wear armour your touch AC is high so in the scheme of things snake style for them is practically worthless (as you likely buffing your AC anyway).

On the other hand for an armour wearing class with a bad touch attack its priceless!

[Dabbler]

Rynjin wrote:

Note Snake Style can only do that once per round, so you may not want to rely on it exclusively.

Might work really well as an Inquisitor (of Irori?) with a Master of Many Styles dip of one or two levels. They get a Sense Motive boost of half their level from Stern Gaze.

Make sure to pick up Snake Fang when possible (another reason MoMS is good, you can skip Snake Sidewind which is meh at best), so you can punish people for missing you (they provoke an AoO if they miss).

Snake Style is my favorite style.

Snake Sidewind lets you confirm critical hits on a Sense Motive check, hardly "meh" if you are maxing out that skill already and get a nat '20' on your last attack and then get to confirm on a skill check in excess of your best attack bonus...

[Rynjin]

Dabbler wrote:

Snake Sidewind lets you confirm critical hits on a Sense Motive check, hardly "meh" if you are maxing out that skill already and get a nat '20' on your last attack and then get to confirm on a skill check in excess of your best attack bonus...

Err, yes, it's very meh. Confirming a crit (on a weapon that only threatens on a 20) with a somewhat higher attack bonus is like the definition of meh.

Especially since it doesn't synergize with the rest of the Feats in the chain AT ALL.

In fact, the ability that comes off of that (5 ft. step after confirming a crit as an Immediate action) is like the OPPOSITE of synergy with the other Feats.

[Dabbler]

Not so sure Rynjin, and here's why: Your attack bonus decreases with iterative attacks, skills do not. So you could, for example, make an attack at +10 and be able to get a confirm at +20 from Sense Motive. Now Critical Focus would only let you confirm at +4 to your attack bonus, so for an effective +10 I think the feat is worthwhile. In play I've seen it cinch a critical hit a number of times.

[Rynjin]

I just don't put much stock in critical hits of the 20/x2 variety that have no rider effects.

If it gave some effect on a crit (free Stunning Fist attempt whenever you confirm a crit or something) worth having (not "Waste your usage of the Style's more generally applicable effects to take a 5 ft. step"), or increased your crit threat/multiplier, or really ANYTHING it would be good.

But as-is its only real use is as a prerequisite for Snake Fang.

[insaneogeddon]

The crit thing does work better if you have a better weapon. Monks can use temple swords, inquisitors have a broad selection etc

[Rynjin]

Yeah but it only applies to crits with Unarmed Strikes though.

Could be really good with that Feat from Dragon Tiger Ox that lets you use Style Feats with a weapon you have Weapon Focus in though.

[insaneogeddon]

Hmmm kinda sux. So think its perfect for inquisitors as a one feat path to touch attack immunity.

[insaneogeddon]

Oooh also:

Unsanctioned Detection
You can focus your ability to detect evil for more practical or mundane purposes
Prerequisite: Detect evil class feature.
Benefit: As a swift action, you can focus the clarity granted by your detect evil ability to heighten your awareness of other things. This gives you a +10 sacred bonus on Perception and Sense Motive checks for one round. This expends your use of the detect evil class ability for the next 24 hours.

[Dabbler]

Rynjin wrote:

I just don't put much stock in critical hits of the 20/x2 variety that have no rider effects.

If it gave some effect on a crit (free Stunning Fist attempt whenever you confirm a crit or something) worth having (not "Waste your usage of the Style's more generally applicable effects to take a 5 ft. step"), or increased your crit threat/multiplier, or really ANYTHING it would be good.

But as-is its only real use is as a prerequisite for Snake Fang.

You need to crunch the math, Rynjin:

Consider: Attack bonus +12/+12/+7/+7 flurry of blows, Sense Motive skill of +17 (not unreasonable figures, skill is equal to level +5+Wis Bonus, these are from an 8th level monk). Attack an AC18 target, and your odds of a successful critical hit are: 5%x75% + 5%x75% + 5%x50% + 5x50% = Expected Critical hits = 12.5%

Now with Snake Sidewind, you can't fail to confirm because you don't automatically fail a skill check on a 1. Hence your expected critical hits are 20%, almost double the odds - very nearly the same as for Improved Critical.

Now assume a higher AC of 21, average CR for this level:
Crit confirm chances without SSw: 60% + 60% + 35% + 35% = 190%
Crit confirm chances with SSw: 85% + 85% +85% +85% = 340%

Again, close on double the odds of a crit confirmation which doubles the odds of a critical hit. Well worth it especially as you CAN stack it with Improved Critical...

[Rynjin]

Walk that back a sec.

You're assuming 4 hits, which assumes Flurry.

Remember we were talking about a MoMS or a MoMS/Inquisitor or an Inquisitor.

Run that math again and see if it comes out nearly as desirable.

[Dabbler]

Rynjin wrote:

Walk that back a sec.

You're assuming 4 hits, which assumes Flurry.

Remember we were talking about a MoMS or a MoMS/Inquisitor or an Inquisitor.

Run that math again and see if it comes out nearly as desirable.

Four attacks, but yes I see your point. However, I must point out that at higher level where the MoMS BAB drops below the flurry-BAB the Sense Motive check remains unaffected, so it's higher by comparison and makes a bigger difference.

The attack bonus will be the same at level 8, because 3/4 of 8 and 8-2 both come to +6 BAB. The only difference is half the attacks, +12/+7 instead of +12/+12/+7/+7.

So to hit AC18, your MoMS chance of a confirmed crit without Snake Sidewind is 6.25%, and 10% with. Against AC21 it's 4.75% chance of a critical hit without Snake Sidewind and 8.5% with.

Again, your chances of a critical hit are significantly increased.