Fighter might be able to beat a Solar in an anti-magic field, though likely the solar will shoot him with arrows. Toe to toe, a fighter is a vastly superior damage dealer to a solar...at least most fighter builds.That was already addressed. Anyone can take skills that aren't class skills. It's just that someone else can take those same skills and be a lot better.The fighter also has the feats to take those Skill Focuses or Extra Traits to have equal skills to the aristocrat.Note the solars Regeneration 15 and Damage Reduction 15, combined with high speed. Sure, if it goes hand to hand with the fighter, notices it loses out, but continues anyway rather than just back off a bit and fire arrows or heal (when outside the anti-magic field it can cast heal quite nicely).
Best thing a warrior can do is buff them up, boost their mobility, and let them start swinging. No one wants to get close to a two-hander fighter. One hit and your hurt, one crit and you're dead.I'd like to see a fighter in an anti-magic field that kills a solar on a single crit. Not only would they need to do 408 damage, they'd also need some non-magic way to bypass the regeneration.
It might be possible with some spirited charge build, but it's severely limited in that it requires a non-magic flying mount that don't die from an AoO, and that it only attacks once per round (which makes it much less likely to confirm a crit against the AC 39 solar).
EDIT: Now, it's a matter of a BBEG fighting a called creature so maybe wealth is irrelevant, but I'd also like to note that the solar, if given a few days, can grant itself +5 to all ability scores that remain in the field. The fighter cannot do that for free, and would have to use tomes for 137500 gp per ability score.
How do you figure it can do this? It does not get wealth by level. It gets monster wealth. It cannot grant itself inherent bonuses. That costs 125,000 gold. It has to cast them in quick succession, which it cannot do.
Once it kills the solar, it drags it out of the antimagic field and tosses some unholy water on it.
You obviously have never summoned a solar for use or had one as a creature played in a game. Since I have, I can tell you from experience they are less effective than a buffed up fighter supported by a group. Their damage capacity pales in comparison to a fighter. Their utility is great if you need that. Since the character that summons the solar is a far superior healer, his healing capabilities aren't usually needed.
The Life Oracle who summons the Solar can mass heal several times a day. She is can Quicken an individual heal spell if she needs a single target heal.
Solars are not all they are cracked up to be at lvl 20. I thought a solar would be a whole lot better than it is. The enemies a lvl 20 party fights are so tough, that a solar is an afterthought. Enemy saves and AC are so high, the solar can't do much against them. It's far better to be specializing in some highly useful ability than be a generalist like the solar.
I guess the problem I have with this is that a BBEG Fighter of level 14 who happens to have a massive army at his beck and call is still less impressive in the world of D&D / Pathfinder than the lone BBEG Wizard of level 13 who's basically made reality itself his second-in-command, what with access to Limited Wish and Create Lesser Demiplane being gained at that level. Sure, the army could conquer one nation at a time in a warpath that lasts months if not years, but the Wizard could do the same in the span of days or weeks.
Do you know how often a caster can use wish or limited wish in most campaigns? Almost never.
This pulling out the wish spell as though it is some commonly used spell is nothing but a presumption by people who never play casters. They just assume that casters use this spell. Sorry, they don't unless they are in some campaign where money is no object. That is rare.
Most wizards prefer to spend their money acquiring more spells and magic items. They save a ton of coin for the day when they finally do get to spend a wish on inherent stat boosts. These are all very costly. Some DMs might allow the simulacrum efreeti trick, none of my DMs ever have. I have never played in a campaign where wishes were easy to access.
A spell that does get used a lot at high level is miracle. Wish and limited wish cost a lot of money to use no matter what you're using it for. They have severe limitations. And are subject to DM interpretation. You don't want to spend that kind of coin to get nothing more than a spell effect from a lower level spell. Blood money is not the end all, be all some make it out to be. Taking strength damage in the middle of combat is not always a viable option, especially when he DM immediately makes you recalculate encumbrance and you can't get an immediate restoration from the cleric.
There so much I never hear taken into account when I see caster capabilities discussed. It can be costly being a caster. If your spell strategy fails in a given round and you suddenly become the target, you don't always last very long. No one talks about all the dead casters who get caught with their pants down because they forgot to check before they cast and got their own spells turned back on them by spell turning or were made irrelevant due to spell immunity against their favorite tricks or a simple made saving throw.
No. He cannot defeat nations in a span of weeks. Someone forgot that nations already have wizard and cleric allies that show up in groups with martial types ready to squash individuals that think they're going to be doing some solo nation conquering. Nation conquering is not a solo venture for anyone save perhaps a god.
Let me see. 20th level two-hander fighter damage with greataxe.
Str: 18 starting +5 bonus +5 inherent = 28
MW Weapon: +1 attack
weapon training: +4
Greater weapon focus: +2
+20 BAB
His bonus to hit at 20 in antimagic field. +36 base
Solar's AC in antimagic field. AC 44
I believe an outsiders DR is supernatural. Thus negated in antimagic field. It doesn't matter.
Two-hander fighter with greataxe.
Damage using PA: -6
Damage:
Strength: +13 (+18 backswing)
+4 weapon training
+4 double spec
+24 Power attack.
First hit: 1d12 +45 Second hit on: 1d12 +50
+30/+25/+20/+15
He's probably best off swinging 4 times.
One first hit crit: 202
Second or later hit crit: 222
I guess he would have a hard time in an antimagic field. It would be no contest outside of it. Two-hander would crush a solar in martial combat. Then again any class except perhaps a barbarian would have trouble with a solar in an antimagic field.
Two-hander fighters are nasty, nasty damage dealers. They can do some great battlefield control as well. That Whirlwind Attack with Stunning Assault or Stunning Critical can make some battles super easy.
You do know that a BBEG can always gain a lot of cash via illegal and rather covert operations? All these "well a Fighter could bash his face in" arguments fall flat on their face because it's usually assumed a Wizard has the high Int that is required to be a good Wizard in the first place. Villain or not, I just cannot fathom a BBEG Wizard being dumb enough to ever let himself end up in such a situation. I'm sorry, but my suspension of disbelief just dies when the BBEG in a game beyond level 10 isn't a spellcaster or a supernatural being. If you can somehow make a believeable, high-level, melee-oriented BBEG then I applaud you for your skills, but I have yet to truly see one that would truly work without some heavy-handed DM Fiat.
Not sure how that is an argument against fighter viability as BBEG.
I just edited my post, and the argument against such is Suspension of Disbelief. I can believe a demon lord as a Big Bad. I can believe an evil wizard (reality warper in other words) as a Big Bad. I can believe a dragon as a Big Bad. I can believe a large monster of some sort as a Big Bad. However, I cannot really believe that an elite version of the mooks I've been smacking around would really be worthy of calling himself the Big Bad of the campaign I'm playing in. That'd be as hilarious to my character as a Kobold claiming it's a Dragon on par with the likes of Tiamat or Dahak.
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How do you figure it can do this? It does not get wealth by level. It gets monster wealth. It cannot grant itself inherent bonuses. That costs 125,000 gold. It has to cast them in quick succession, which it cannot do.
The Solar gets wish once per day as a spell-like ability. Spell-like abilities do not use material components. Frankly the Solar stat block should have assumed +5 to all ability scores from Wish as a matter of course.
And I would most definitely not bet on a 20th level fighter vs a Solar.
In this thread there have been several suggestion of how (and why) to make a fighter (or any other martial) a BBEG.
What do you not like about them?
So far as I've seen, none of those BBEG's are exactly as safe from spellcasting PCs as their casting counterparts could be, or from any of the standard methods by which high level characters usually win their battles. That is, they have no chances of doing so without some heavy-handed cheating on the DM's side of the table or some really bad luck with the dice on the player's side. Like I said, I'd be happy to see a Fighter BBEG that actually works, but so far this thread has been found wanting in my opinion.
I don't understand your response.That was already addressed. Anyone can take skills that aren't class skills. It's just that someone else can take those same skills and be a lot better.The fighter also has the feats to take those Skill Focuses or Extra Traits to have equal skills to the aristocrat.Fighter might be able to beat a Solar in an anti-magic field, though likely the solar will shoot him with arrows. Toe to toe, a fighter is a vastly superior damage dealer to a solar...at least most fighter builds.
I thought being able to summon a solar would be cool. He was like a pellet gun compared to the two-hander warrior and come and get me barbarian. Two-hander warriors do insane damage. Best thing a warrior can do is buff them up, boost their mobility, and let them start swinging. No one wants to get close to a two-hander fighter. One hit and your hurt, one crit and you're dead.
I run in a group where a caster can summon a solar for us in combat. It is a lvl 20 life oracle with prayer beads karma. This allows her to gate in a solar for use during battle.
In that same group is a lvl 20 invulnerable rager superstition come and get me barbarian and a lvl 20 two-hander whirlwind attack lunge stunning assault two-hander fighter with juggernaut pauldrons. I think those are what they are called. Allow you grow in combat as a swift acton.
Both of them far more dangerous in standard combat than the solar and far superior damage dealers. I thought the solar would be a more effective summoned combatant. He usually can't do much before the group martials kill everything. The solar is like pulling out a pellet gun while two big cannons are killing everything. It's a waste of a 9th level spell and 10,000 gold. I guess I expected more.
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You do know that a BBEG can always gain a lot of cash via illegal and rather covert operations? All these "well a Fighter could bash his face in" arguments fall flat on their face because it's usually assumed a Wizard has the high Int that is required to be a good Wizard in the first place. Villain or not, I just cannot fathom a BBEG Wizard being dumb enough to ever let himself end up in such a situation. I'm sorry, but my suspension of disbelief just dies when the BBEG in a game beyond level 10 isn't a spellcaster or a supernatural being. If you can somehow make a believeable, high-level, melee-oriented BBEG then I applaud you for your skills, but I have yet to truly see one that would truly work without some heavy-handed DM Fiat.
Have you ever read anything involving Batman?
Actually, Batman's a good example, as is Lex Luthor, neither's probably a Fighter, but they make excellent examples of how badass a non-superpowered individual can be in a setting with superpowers. Neither's necessarily smarter than all the people who have superpowers (though both are smarter than most), but they are, by necessity, more inventive when it comes to using their intellect. It's very doable.
So far as I've seen, none of those BBEG's are exactly as safe from spellcasting PCs as their casting counterparts could be, or from any of the standard methods by which high level characters usually win their battles. That is, they have no chances of doing so without some heavy-handed cheating on the DM's side of the table or some really bad luck with the dice on the player's side. Like I said, I'd be happy to see a Fighter BBEG that actually works, but so far this thread has been found wanting in my opinion.
Cheating in what way? is not given the NPC spellcaster a lot of wealth and follower cheating also?
You do know that a BBEG can always gain a lot of cash via illegal and rather covert operations? All these "well a Fighter could bash his face in" arguments fall flat on their face because it's usually assumed a Wizard has the high Int that is required to be a good Wizard in the first place. Villain or not, I just cannot fathom a BBEG Wizard being dumb enough to ever let himself end up in such a situation. I'm sorry, but my suspension of disbelief just dies when the BBEG in a game beyond level 10 isn't a spellcaster or a supernatural being. If you can somehow make a believeable, high-level, melee-oriented BBEG then I applaud you for your skills, but I have yet to truly see one that would truly work without some heavy-handed DM Fiat.
I usually give a martial some awesome artifact weapon.
I don't know why people think casters are so awesome. One rogue can kill them in their sleep. There is almost no way to stop it if the rogue does intelligence gathering, spends the coin, and has the right gear.
Casters that go around acting as though they are invincible throwing their weight around usually end up dead. It's not all that hard to take them out if you really want to do. Spending endless cash trying to cover every contingency is a waste of resources. Better to make some powerful friends and have them help you out. It pays as a wizard to have both powerful martial and divine caster friends on top some skill monkeys. Friendship or at least a mutually beneficial alliance is the best way to do things for any class.
How do you figure it can do this? It does not get wealth by level. It gets monster wealth. It cannot grant itself inherent bonuses. That costs 125,000 gold. It has to cast them in quick succession, which it cannot do.The Solar gets wish once per day as a spell-like ability. Spell-like abilities do not use material components. Frankly the Solar stat block should have assumed +5 to all ability scores from Wish as a matter of course.
And I would most definitely not bet on a 20th level fighter vs a Solar.
You know how that works right? They have to be cast in quick succession. A single solar could only cast one wish at a time. He could only get a +1 inherent bonus by himself. You cannot stack them by day. It has to be done all at once or not at all.
That's why every caster that can saves 125,000 gold and does their primary stat all at once. You cannot do it piecemeal.
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three wishes for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Getting inherent stat bonuses is quite expensive and difficult. My players start saving for several levels for stat bonuses at high level.
You know how that works right? They have to be cast in quick succession. A single solar could only cast one wish at a time. He could only get a +1 inherent bonus by himself. You cannot stack them by day. It has to be done all at once or not at all.
Which is where the efreeti loop enters the picture. The solar makes a Wish to summon an efreet (A), forces him to grant the Solar three wishes with with his 26 Charisma, summons two more efreeti (B&C) with those wishes and dismisses the original efreet. Now the Solar has 6 wishes ready to go from Efreet B and C, more than enough to bump his Charisma to 30.
Next day he repeats the process (bonus points if you summon the same efreeti) with the rest of his ability scores. Six days later he has a +5 inherent bonus to all ability scores with no expense.
You know how that works right? They have to be cast in quick succession. A single solar could only cast one wish at a time. He could only get a +1 inherent bonus by himself. You cannot stack them by day. It has to be done all at once or not at all.
That's why every caster that can saves 125,000 gold and does their primary stat all at once. You cannot do it piecemeal.
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three wishes for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Getting inherent stat bonuses is quite expensive and difficult. My players start saving for several levels for stat bonuses at high level.
Which is where the efreeti loop enters the picture. The solar makes a Wish to summon an efreet (A), forces him to grant the Solar three wishes with with his 26 Charisma, summons two more efreeti (B&C) with those wishes and dismisses the original efreet. Now the Solar has 6 wishes ready to go from Efreet B and C, more than enough to bump his Charisma to 30.
Next day he repeats the process (bonus points if you summon the same efreeti) with the rest of his ability scores. Six days later he has a +5 inherent bonus to all ability scores with no expense.
If you DM allows the efreeti loop. My DM does not. It is no guarantee you can force the efreeti to do what you want.
Funny how easy you make the efreeti loop sound. It really isn't that easy. One service equals one wish for planar binding. So you would have to summon five efreet
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If you DM allows the efreeti loop. My DM does not. It is no guarantee you can force the efreeti to do what you want.
Funny how easy you make the efreeti loop sound. It really isn't that easy.
If your house rules artificially limit spellcasters then of course you're going to have a different impression of the balance between casters and martials.
And yes, personally I have very little trouble believing a Solar will make an efreet obey him in a hurry. The efreeti loop should be effortless to a creature with the Solar's ability scores, spell-like abilities and overall prowess.
One service equals one wish for planar binding. So you would have to summon five efreet
Would you mind quoting this section? I don't really see the difference between "summon an efreet" and "summon two efreeti" as far as services go.
Do you know how often a caster can use wish or limited wish in most campaigns? Almost never.Cast as often as a lot of other spells? No. But limited wish is used more than you are implying though.
Mainly as a "pull the bacon out of the fire" or to solve some other problem you don't have the spell for at that time.
I have never made a caster who didn't have this spell, whether he had the cash for it or not at the time he picked spells.
Sometimes you need it. If you cast it once every 5 or even 10 sessions, it still earns it's keep in my book.
I always get it. I almost never use it. I hate spending coin when I know how much I'm going to need later on. I still don't know where everyone is getting all this coin to summon creatures, create summoning circles, make efreet do what they want, and other such stuff.
So, yeah, I think that works. His gear's quite a haul for PCs, but that's hardly the end of the world.
One advantage of a Fighter as the Ultimate Big Bad Guy is that you can load him down with intelligent magic items, artefacts, and so forth that will bring victorious PCs way about WBL and it doesn't matter - because he's the ultimate bad guy and once they win the campaign ends.
If you DM allows the efreeti loop. My DM does not. It is no guarantee you can force the efreeti to do what you want.
Funny how easy you make the efreeti loop sound. It really isn't that easy.
If your house rules limit spellcasters then of course you're going to have a different impression of how the game runs.
And yes, personally I have very little trouble believing a Solar will make an efreet obey him in a hurry.
Has nothing to do with house rules. One service, equals one wish. That means five efreets need to be summoned made to act in unison before they leave. Five inverted circles to stop them from flying away or planeshifting. I wonder if a solar is going to take the time to do all this. I wonder if he is going to attract the attention of someone else powerful enough to stop him or summon him.
Nothing artificial about playing a world as a world rather than assuming everything works as intended because it is the "rule". RPGs were never meant for operating in a vacuum. The entire reason there is a discussion on the consequences of summoning and controlling creatures is because you as a DM are supposed to take into account the abuse of power possible with someone as open-ended as a wish or summoning and forcing servitude.
I imagine a theory crafter would get upset when the DM enforces consequences for abuse of power. Those consequences are listed in several different areas of the rule book. That makes them every bit a part of the rules.
He will do nothing of the kind. He must imprison the efreet or he leaves. Soon as he calls him in. So is this Solar going to prepare multiple summon circles in advance to trap the efreet? He's going to need a lot.
You overestimate the ease that things can be done.
You're probably a theory crafter rather than a player. A solar that tries to summon a bunch of efreet to force them to use wishes is probably going to attract attention of a powerful entity that can challenge him or speak to his superior. Or start summoning him over and over again.
Or do you not bother playing the repercussions of screwing with outsiders too much?
If you DM allows the efreeti loop. My DM does not. It is no guarantee you can force the efreeti to do what you want.
Funny how easy you make the efreeti loop sound. It really isn't that easy.
If your house rules artificially limit spellcasters then of course you're going to have a different impression of the balance between casters and martials.
And yes, personally I have very little trouble believing a Solar will make an efreet obey him in a hurry. The efreeti loop should be effortless to a creature with the Solar's ability scores, spell-like abilities and overall prowess.
One service equals one wish for planar binding. So you would have to summon five efreetWould you mind quoting this section? I don't really see the difference between "summon an efreet" and "summon two efreeti" as far as services go.
Pulled from planar binding which I'm assuming you're using to force an efreeti to do your bidding before it leaves.
The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.
An efreeti understands the nature of contracts as well as any creature in existence. It is well within its right to save "One wish, one service". There is nothing you can do by the rules to alter that viewpoint.
If you try to force it to grant three wishes, it can simply repeat the phrase, "One wish, one service".
He will do nothing of the kind. He must imprison the efreet or he leaves. Soon as he calls him in. So is this Solar going to prepare multiple summon circles in advance to trap the efreet? He's going to need a lot.
You overestimate the ease that things can be done.
The Solar, among other things, has spellcasting as a 20th level cleric. I'm guessing he probably has the juice to throw together a few Magic Circles and a Dimensional Anchor to hold the Efreet. If the Efreet by some miracle makes a Will save against the creature 11 CRs higher than him, the Solar just repeats the process. It's not like he doesn't have the time - he is, quite literally, immortal.
You're probably a theory crafter rather than a player.
Well, that certainly wasn't rude or dismissive.
A solar that tries to summon a bunch of efreet to force them to use wishes is probably going to attract attention of a powerful entity that can challenge him or speak to his superior. Or start summoning him over and over again.
First of all, now you're squarely in the house game world - there's no written limitations on doing things like what I suggested above. Secondly, the Solar is that powerful entity - the Bestiary defines them as the equivalent of "demigods". Short of the full-blown gods, he's at the top of the Celestial food chain. Finally, why would LG entities protest that a solar is empowering himself to further the goals of Good?
Is the wish trick is posible we have to assume the Solar stat already reflect thse. AKA they already have those Inheret bonuses to stats.
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By reading gate, I may be able to summon in two efreets for 10,000 gold and have them cast wish in quick succession to boost my stats. That would be a huge savings. Though I would feel super cheesy doing that. By the rules I can control the efreet summoned in that fashion.
Pulled from planar binding which I'm assuming you're using to force an efreeti to do your bidding before it leaves.
The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.
An efreeti understands the nature of contracts as well as any creature in existence. It is well within its right to save "One wish, one service". There is nothing you can do by the rules to alter that viewpoint.
If you try to force it to grant three wishes, it can simply repeat the phrase, "One wish, one service".
There's a Charisma check made to compel the creature to perform a service - the caster defines, and describes, the service - not the efreet.
Unless you're arguing that "use your spell-like abilities to summon two efreeti into the summoning circles I have prepared" is an impossible demand or unreasonable command, I don't really see the argument here.
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Is the wish trick is posible we have to assume the Solar stat already reflect thse. AKA they already have those Inheret bonuses to stats.
I really wish that were true, but creatures that have Wish spells inflating their ability scores note so in the writeup - for instance Karzoug from Rise of the Runelords has Wish spells affecting his ability scores called out in his character sheet.
At a minimum, a Solar should have a +1 to all his ability scores from simply casting Wish upon himself, which does not require an efreeti loop.
The Solar, among other things, has spellcasting as a 20th level cleric. I'm guessing he probably has the juice to throw together a few Magic Circles and a Dimensional Anchor to hold the Efreet. If the Efreet by some miracle makes a Will save against the creature 11 CRs higher than him, the Solar just repeats the process. It's not like he doesn't have the time - he is, quite literally, immortal.
And probably must ask permission to do so. They're is a reason they don't all do it right?
First of all, now you're squarely in the house game world - there's no written limitations on doing things like what I suggested above. Secondly, the Solar is that powerful entity - the Bestiary defines them as the equivalent of "demigods". Short of the full-blown gods, he's at the top of the Celestial food chain. Finally, why would LG entities protest that a solar is empowering himself to further the goals of Good?
Perhaps because the lawful good entities have treaties with the efreet gods and rulers so as not to start a war?
There are indeed in game limitations on what you suggested. They are not hard and fast rules, but discussions of repercussions of enslaving powerful entities. They are left up to the DM. They are not house rules as you seem to imply. They are very much in the books, but are the purview of the DM.
As I said, this is not a video game with hard and fast rules. When a player attempts something that might be considered an abuse of power that will be noticed by powerful entities, it is the purview of the DM to decide how that will be dealt with. A group of players attempting to force intelligent entities to grant wishes at will is definitely something the powerful beings of the cosmos would take note of.
This is mentioned in several different areas of the book. If you as a DM allow unfettered summoning and enslavement, that is your choice. If I do not, that is my choice. Neither decision is a house rule. Both are considering the consequences of the act within the framework of a game where powerful entities are expected to act when certain magics are over-used. You might ignore it. Another DM might not. Neither are wrong.
Is the wish trick is posible we have to assume the Solar stat already reflect thse. AKA they already have those Inheret bonuses to stats.I really wish that were true, but creatures that have Wish spells inflating their ability scores note so in the writeup - for instance Karzoug from Rise of the Runelords has Wish spells affecting his ability scores called out in his character sheet.
At a minimum, a Solar should have a +1 to all his ability scores from simply casting Wish upon himself, which does not require an efreeti loop.
Karzoug is not a monster, it just a human with ruls on his stats. THe stats of the solar are arbitrary, and if every solar use this trick (they all will if the trick is as simple) then every solar would already have those bonuses.
By the other hand, if the problem are cheezy things, then the problem is not important at all.
By reading gate, I may be able to summon in two efreets for 10,000 gold and have them cast wish in quick succession to boost my stats. That would be a huge savings. Though I would feel super cheesy doing that. By the rules I can control the efreet summoned in that fashion.
This is entirely true, though it should be noted that Gate bases the calling effect on Planar Ally rather than Planar Calling - you'd actually have to offer some kind of reward then.
Pulled from planar binding which I'm assuming you're using to force an efreeti to do your bidding before it leaves.
The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.
An efreeti understands the nature of contracts as well as any creature in existence. It is well within its right to save "One wish, one service". There is nothing you can do by the rules to alter that viewpoint.
If you try to force it to grant three wishes, it can simply repeat the phrase, "One wish, one service".
There's a Charisma check made to compel the creature to perform a service - the caster defines, and describes, the service - not the efreet.
Unless you're arguing that "use your spell-like abilities to summon two efreeti into the summoning circles I have prepared" is an impossible demand or unreasonable command, I don't really see the argument here.
The spell's limitation is one service. That's all you can extract with your charisma check. He summon them and is done.
He is the caster. He would have to request the service. You have no power to request a service from efreet he summoned with his spell-like abilities.
Like I said, easier said than done.
It's easier to use a gate spell. Summon two 10 HD efreets. And force them to use their wish to boost your stats. Attempting to use planar binding to force wish out of efreet is opening up a can of worms for the DM to pervert what you want.
A Solar only has one wish a day. Planar Ally doesn't work like planar binding. I'm not sure a solar can summon an evil creature. Might be against his ethos, right?
Planar Binding, Simulacrum, ect are all things that will have table variation do to different GM rulings.
Doesn't mean that those spells CAN'T be abused.
For example: would you let shadow spells mimic custom wizard/sorcerer spells?
As far as BBEG fighters go. I don't see a lvl 20 BBEG fighter with less than a dragon mount and four lvl 15 wizards in service.
By reading gate, I may be able to summon in two efreets for 10,000 gold and have them cast wish in quick succession to boost my stats. That would be a huge savings. Though I would feel super cheesy doing that. By the rules I can control the efreet summoned in that fashion.This is entirely true, though it should be noted that Gate bases the calling effect on Planar Ally rather than Planar Calling - you'd actually have to offer some kind of reward then.
Not really. If it can perform the action in rounds, you don't need to offer it anything other than the 10,000 material component.
So a cleric or oracle with gate and karma prayer beads could summon the two efreet for 10 k gold by lvl 17 or 18. It could force them to cast the wishes in quick succession over 6 rounds. That is well before the gate duration is up.
It is technically legal. It's such incredible cheese I don't think I can allow it to happen. I would feel too dirty.
lvl 20 sorcerer calls 3 efreeti to get 9 wishes for 10K
Or GM rules that wishes must be verbalized and thus pervert-able.
Then again he doesn't have to rule that way.
Not that any of this matters for BBEGs who can spend the money needed for a +5 inherent bonus to all stats. This ruling effects PCs more than anything. Preventing casters from getting a +5 to their casting stat also prevents MAD martials from getting a +5 to ALL of their important stats.
In a world where a Wizard beyond level 8 can pretty much pose a major threat to entire armies of Fighters, a BBEG who happens to be a member of a non-casting class just isn't a viable threat. Decking him in powerful gear isn't exactly an option either, since the best gear is magical and thus subject to the effects of an Anti-Magic Field. Toss one over his/her head, and your BBEG just turned into a glorified version of the cannon fodder you've been beating down throughout the campaign.
You can't just "toss" an antimagic field at someone. It's centered on the caster. Good luck surviving even getting that close to any BBEG worth a damn.
This is entirely true, though it should be noted that Gate bases the calling effect on Planar Ally rather than Planar Calling - you'd actually have to offer some kind of reward then.Not really. If it can perform the action in rounds, you don't need to offer it anything other than the 10,000 material component.
So a cleric or oracle with gate and karma prayer beads could summon the two efreet for 10 k gold by lvl 17 or 18. It could force them to cast the wishes in quick succession over 6 rounds. That is well before the gate duration is up.
Planar Ally has a minimum cost of 100x HD on top of the Gate spell, so there would be an additional cost in addition to the 10k GP. It would still be rather a lot cheaper than the ~125k you were planning on spending on Wish spells though.
My point here isn't to make you feel dirty, my point is to illustrate that barring houserules or table variation (and with respect, "solars and efreeti have a pact to not summon efreeti" is very much justification for a house rule) but rather that barring house rules, spellcasters that truly utilize their spells will run rough-shod over non-casters. The wish loop is one of the more obvious options, but it certainly isn't the only one.
You mentioned earlier that a 20th level wizard could die to a rogue while he was asleep and there's almost no way to stop it if the rogue does intelligence gathering, spends the coin, and has the right gear.
That statement makes it very, very clear to me that we play with dramatically different expectations of optimization.
I just had to comment that I'm pretty sure I've seen a lot more deaths at the hands of BBEG fighter types than I have BBEG caster types.
Me too. Although mostly at lower levels, where death tends to always be one crit away (and, I observe, where most people have said they can use the good old humanoid fighter without much augmentation).
At high levels the reverse is certainly true.
A two-hander fighter, weapon master, archer, and two-hander fighter could all beat a solar in a martial combat without breaking a sweat. Slightly harder in anti-magic field, but hardly impossible.
DR means next to nothing to a fighter even in a antimagic field, though I do believe a solar loses his DR in such a...
A solar is a spellcasting monster with martial capabilities. It says as much in the description.
That said, I don't think your posted half-build can accomplish this if the two were to battle in an antimagic field or dead magic plane or whatever. I'd be happy to run it for you if you like though. I suppose my opinion might change based on the other half.
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On the Wishes thing:
For a solar or other Good aligned entity, there are serious problems with this plan using Efreeti (the efreeti can twist the wishes and screw you, basically). Noble Djinn are better. Though evil folks are probably better sticking with the Efreeti (see below). Stick with something on the same end of the alignment spectrum.
And what you do is simple:
You don't use Planar Binding (or Wish), you use Planar Ally, instead. Then you make a deal: The creature gives you two wishes of your choice and you'll use the third one on whatever it wants (that order is important). You make the same deal to all of the ones you summon with additional uses of Planar Ally (hey, you can memorize it several times a day by 12th level or so). Spend like a week, +4-5 to all your stats if you set it up right.
This seems a reasonable set-up to me. And allows the GM to have fun figuring out all the wishes you just granted the genie itself, how it uses them, and what the consequences of those are. :)
All that said...doing this on NPCs (including Solars) is +1 CR...so if you're gonna do it, adjust CR accordingly.
Raith Shadar: inherent bonuses for free theough wish as an SLA, though as has been poibted out i was wrong on +5, it can only have +1 or+2 depending on interpretation.
The solar has no incentive to enter the AM field to begin woth and has the means to avoid it, but even if it does that does not mean the fighter can casually kill it, it needs a lot of luck combined with a pretty specific build (that you havent even supplied or hited at, just claiming tha it can do it).
Claiming theyre less effective than a buffed up fighter supported by a party is a straw man, never claimed anything else. The question was about a fighter in an AM field which is a wholedifferent beast, as fighters use magic to emulate what solars have naturally (maneuverability, good physical scores etc).
But of course , the original post wasnt even intended to become a pissing contest between a solar and an AM fighter - it was to show that casters can still contribute greatly even if the enemy is protected by an AM field.
Anti-magic field is never a sound argument.
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If this thread is about Fighters and BBEGs, why are we arguing about Solar stats? Shall we get back to the topic at hand, please?
If this thread is about Fighters and BBEGs, why are we arguing about Solar stats? Shall we get back to the topic at hand, please?
+1
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I think the problem is that people are trying to shoehorn caster BBEG plotlines into a fighter setting. It's not going to work. They have specific abilities and need certain plot requirements to shine. They require a bit more support then casters, agreed. They require a different scenario than casters to work, agreed. This is why there are different classes, for different scenarios and different challenges. I think a fighter would be a great hit and run expert, especially if he could get the drop on his target. Pop up, full attack for a huge amount of damage and disappear again. That's the first thing I thought of when I found this thread. I think I shall create such an assassin-style fighter, just to see how he works. Straight up level 20 fighter, no prestige classes, no templates, just archetypes and non-artifact items. Instead of everyone piping up with reasons why it couldn't work, why don't you get out of your comfort zone rut and challenge yourself to think up ways it could?
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A naked fighter with a single weapon can too. Depends on the encounter.No, they can't.
A fighter dealing damage is pretty much math. They do x amount of damage per round based on the AC they are attacking. They take x amount of damage per round based on their ac. For most groups the primary and secondary melee alone will take down a fighter 4 levels higher.
No. I wish it were simple math. It isn't. There are all kinds of variables.
Naked fighter jumps up, grabs his weapon, and starts going to down.
Anyone else catch the Freudian slip there?
Funny, I always thought everyone said the most OP fighter around wielded a composite longbow. You know, these harmful melee fighter stereotypes don't help the discussion.
I'm so sick of all this class warfare.
Under normal circumstances, yeah, but this specific fighter had the two-handed fighter archetype and a bunch of THF feats. It could probably switch hit a bit, but not good enough. And even a dedicated archer would fall flat due to the antimagic field - in a shoot-out, it has all mundane equipment, no defensive buffs and nothing.
Meanwhile, the solar has a +5 bow (though the arrows become mundane), a +5 full plate, entropic shield (20% miss chance), divine favor (+3 hit/ab), bears endurance (+44 hp), heal for 150 points, and one wish and one miracle. Those things can do quite a lot of good.
And here's the worst part of all: That miracle can be used to cast Fickle Winds, rendering the archer completely useless while the solar maintains full efficiency.EDIT: Also, the class war is the only war.
What, so we're sticking the fighter in the antimagic field but the solar is exempt? Just how dumb is this fighter? ;D
I'm sorry, but my suspension of disbelief just dies when the BBEG in a game beyond level 10 isn't a spellcaster or a supernatural being.
Really? Your suspension of disbelief can't handle a rogue, barbarian, monk, cavalier or fighter being a BBEG? That's an awful fragile suspension, you know.
Anyways, guys, bottom line is, I think solars make perfectly good BBEGs if you just--what? Oh, that wasn't the original thread topic? Huh. You sure? Okay then.
I run in a group where a caster can summon a solar for us in combat. It is a lvl 20 life oracle with prayer beads karma. This allows her to gate in a solar for use during battle.I still don't understand what that has to do with the post you responded to.
I see now. I think I might have replied to the wrong post. Or that was part of a much longer post that was truncated during the attempt to quote. Either way I think I responded to a post I didn't intend to respond to somewhere.
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Barbarian BBEGs are awesome. Fighters are generally the only ones where I find I can't just straight up drop a core race with class levels down and have him be perfectly functional, and that's largely because of the Fighter's complete lack of any kind of supernatural ability. Even Rogues can get awesome UMD and a smattering of magical abilities that make them suitable BBEGs.
Fighters just need a little extra GM love, or a race or template that gives them extra mobility and options necessary to serve as a suitable challenge for an adventuring party. You don't even see that many straight Fighters in AP's or modules. The Ruby Phoenix Tournament, a module literally built around the idea of a martial arts competition,
Similarly, whenever a Fighter does show up in published materials as the BBEG, he's either got caster support or is of a race that gives him unusual abilities or immunities.
Fighters just don't have a lot of ways to deal with sheer number of options that most parties have at their disposal, and this becomes more true with every level they gain. You pretty much have to give them options somewhere, whether that's through increased WBL, access to artifact-level goodies, or support from minions who are casters.