So there seems to be some controversy about how the Mnk/Drd combo (12d8 unarmed damage!) plays in real life. I have taken it upon myself to stress test a reasonable version of the build in a Pathfinder adventure path (Jade Regent, heck yeah!), with updates given... every level? That way we can see how it actually performs in a At the very least, and more often if I happen to glean some insight during play.
Questions about my experience or the build itself are of course welcome.
So without further ado, let us meet our champion! (Rules are PFS standard 20 point buy, max HP at 1st level, max HP -2 at every subsequent level)
Male Human (Varisian) Monk (Hungry Ghost Monk, Master of Many Styles) 1
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +6
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Defense
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AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +1 dodge, +2 untyped)
hp 9 (1d8+1)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee quarterstaff +4 (1d6+6) and
. . unarmed strike +4 (1d6+4)
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 7
Base Atk +0; CMB +4; CMD 19
Feats Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Punishing Kick
Traits magical knack, scholar of the great beyond, student survivalist
Skills Acrobatics +6, Knowledge (planes) +5, Perception +6, Sense Motive +6, Survival +8
Languages Common, Varisian
SQ ac bonus, fuse style, unarmed strike
Other Gear quarterstaff, monk's kit, 142 GP
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +2 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Crane Style Penalty when fighting defensively reduced to -2 and dodge bonus increases by 1.
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Fuse Style (2 styles) (Ex) At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but whe
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Magical Knack (-Choose-) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Punishing Kick (Push 5') (1/day) (DC 12) You can push or knock down an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Student Survivalist (Shalelu) (Ex) +1 vs foes threatening Shalelu.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
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On a stormy night some 20 years ago, the elven ranger Shalelu brought to the House of Blue Stones an abandoned babe who was subsequently adopted and raised in the faith of Irori by Enderaki Sorn.
Rasmus soon grew into a tall if thin youth, with constantly untidy brown hair and a tanned complexion, whose beanpole figure belied his almost inhuman strength. A taciturn and focused youth, he never quite fit in with the daily mileu of Sandpoint, always seeming to unnerve the townsfolk by either staring past them when in conversation or dissecting them with his gaze as if to calculate the best locations to incapacitate in a fight.
Shalelu has kept a constant watch on Rasmus, indeed, teaching him the tricks of wilderness survival. But from time to time, she looks at him with something approaching trepidation in her farseeing eyes, if pressed by friends, she will relate the tale of his origin, that while tracking some great beast on the night of the storms all those years ago, in a ravaged clearing filled with half eaten deer corpses, she found Rasmus suckling a dead doe while clutching in his hands a giant, razor sharp tooth of a creature she was unable to identify. She does not know how Rasmus and the tooth (which he wears around his neck) are related, but it clearly fills her with worry...
The rest of the party are Shinji Nakamori, Half-Elf Samurai Retainer of the Kaijutsu family, Sasha Poshman, Dilettante Gnomish Summoner and his Black Hound Eidolon Stummon, and Norrin Shee, a Paladin foundling from the temple of Sarenrae (going heavy armor and strength).
Conclusions at the middle of lvl 1 (and on the cusp of lvl 2): Wow, I do quite decent damage two handing that quarterstaff, but boy without a healer do I fall down bleeding to death a lot. Perhaps a more serious investment into Con was warrented (and do tell me if you think it was, as I can still make changes to the character.
Note: Using un-nerfed Crane Style since we had built our characters before the Paizo staff brought down the Doomhammer. Still, it isn't all its cracked up to be, in the fight against Skitterfoot, I managed to deflect one of its blows only to be critted by a dire rat and brought down. And they thought the feat was overpowered at 1st level? The mind boggles.
So tell me the stuff you want to know and the changes you would make, and I'll be sure to answer in this thread.
prototype00
My long term plan is to turn my two claw attacks into surrogate unarmed strikes (as an allosaurus). With feral combat training and dragon ferocity, those basically act as two extra unarmed attacks (at -2 from full attack bonus).
So:
1st lvl: Quarterstaff 2 handed, wreck face, gets slightly better with druid levels and shillelagh.
3rd lvl: Pick up Claw/Claw/Bite routine
5th lvl: Feral Combat Training (Claw), instead of a BaB / BaB -5 routine, I now have a BaB/BaB/BaB attack routine for unarmed strikes.
7th lvl: Planar Wild Shape + Allosaurus shape, DR 5 evil/good, good natural AC, wis to AC and Selectable energy resistance 10 for hours per day. I am basically really, really tough now.
9th lvl: Dragon Style/Dragon Ferocity (take both) - my claws deal str and a half unarmed damage (one deals 2x str)
11th: Natural Spell (had to take it sometime)
13th: Multiattack - I can start using unarmed strikes and tacking on claw attacks at a -2 penalty.
E.t.c. (Interestingly, the build doesn't require shaping focus as I am not going for the higher level WS forms. saves a feat.
I will probably raise Con, and I am considering taking Monk of the Sacred Mountain to make up for even more HP (gives Toughness), but am leery because I would like to have evasion.
prototype00
Eh? Sorry, I'm not understanding what you mean by that. I am playing by RAW (as it said in the faq that natural attacks with feral combat training deal unarmed strike damage if unarmed strike damage was higher).
Or were you referring to something else?
prototype00
Oh, no, of course they are secondary attacks. This is offset by multiattack (secondary attacks are only at -2) and dragon ferocity (unarmed strikes/claws with feral combat training deal +.5x str).
Until I can offset it with those two feats, I am just going to use the claws and not unarmed strikes (after all, three attacks at full BaB and full strength to damage probably beats one at full BaB and three at -5 BaB and half str to damage)
prototype00
I check again my post, I am certainly wrong about the bite attack, it is secondary as you do nto have FCT for it. But I do not see any issue on using your unarmed strikes and your claws together, they count as unarmed strikes, right? There was a post by Mathwei ap Niall that I tnink that claims this thing. Of course I may have understood it wrong.
They (the claws) do count as unarmed strikes (for most purposes)with Feral Combat Training, but anyone who builds this kind of character is at an impasse, do I:
1. Treat them as unarmed strike and use them as part of my iterative attack
or
2. Treat them as a natural attack and use them with my unarmed strike as a secondary natural attack as per the rules here:
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
or
3. Treat them as a natural attack and use them as a primary attack (no unarmed strike iteratives)
At lvls 1-2: I two hand the quaterstaff (strength and a half damage) and use shellelagh when I have the spell to buff it.
At lvls 3-6: I use my claw/claw/bite routine all at full BaB (two hand the quaterstaff when I run out of totemic transformation uses)
At higher lvls: When I have both multiattack and dragon style (lvl 9ish), I will use my unarmed strike (2x Str damage) and my secondary attacks shall be the claws (1x Str damage) and the bite (0.5x Str damage)
Of course assuming I survive until then. I think if I can make it to 7th and pick up Planar WS (making me as tough as high level barbarians) I should be pretty all round survivable.
prototype00
Edit: In short, I'm not sure that Mathwei and what he argues in that thread (that you get two attack routines, one unarmed strike one natural attack, at full str mod and no penalties) is correct.
I think FCT lets you sub in claws for Unarmed strikes or use unarmed strike only feats with natural attacks (dragon style), but thats about it (or as much as the feat allows you to do).
Actually the samurai and the paladin are the front liners. With those two (and their massive armor), I can usually sneak around and skirmish (though in practice, I'm finding that skirmishing is slightly harder to do.)
prototype00
Which I can do eventually with an allosaurus with 15ft reach?
prototype00
So, safely made it to lvl 2, and since I optimized quite shamelessly, I'm doing a good amount of damage in the group (the DPS if you will), though the summoner is bound to catch up sooner or later.
Took my first level in Druid (Saurian Shaman), and basically am playing the same, except that I'm enchanting my quaterstaff with Shillelagh and using enlarge person (for 3d6 + 10 damage, which is decent) when the going gets tough.
I'm thinking about the feats, here is how they are currently arranged:
Lvl 1 Mnk (MoMS): Dodge(Human), Crane Style(1st), Crane Wing (Monk Bonus feat)
Lvl 3: Mnk (MoMS)1 / Druid (Saurian Shaman)2: Weapon Focus (Claws) - using the totemic shifting claws the source.
Lvl 5: Mnk (MoMS)1 / Druid (Saurian Shaman)4: Feral Combat Training (Claws)
Lvl 7: Mnk (MoMS)1 / Druid (Saurian Shaman)6: Planar Wild Shape
Lvl 9: Mnk (MoMS)2 / Druid (Saurian Shaman)7: Dragon Style/ Dragon Ferocity
Lvl 11: Mnk (MoMS)3 / Druid (Saurian Shaman)8: Natural Spell
Lvl 13: Mnk (MoMS)5 / Druid (Saurian Shaman)8: Multiattack
Lvl 14: Mnk (MoMS)6 / Druid (Saurian Shaman)8: Crane Riposte (Monk Bonus feat)
Lvl 15: Mnk (MoMS)7 / Druid (Saurian Shaman)8: Monastic Legacy
(Jade Regent ends around lvl 15 IIRC)
So the main issue I have is that Natural Spell comes at lvl 11 which is a bit late. But how do others see it?
prototype00