
Cap. Darling |

master_marshmallow wrote:Sindalla wrote:I'm sorry, I guess I'm just really not grasping the % to hit part.
Assuming the following AC's, what number would I use: (I should be able to figure it out from there)
AC: 5
AC: 10
AC: 15
AC: 18
AC: 20
AC: 25
You have to calculate it based on your attack bonus.
Let's say for instance, you have a +22 to hit on your main attack, against an average AC of 24 (which is the assumed AC based on the Bestiary, but you really should base it off the actual average AC of the encounters you face which may be a difficult figure to obtain which is why for purposes of internet forums we assume 24 which has its own set of problems) means you have to roll a 2 or better on the die, or rather, you cannot roll a 1. This is your optimal statistic here, and it means you have a 95% chance to hit something. Why is this? Because on a d20 every face represents a 5% chance probability. You can take the number of faces that will yield a result that will let you hit an AC of 24 and multiply that number by 5 and you will have the percentile figure that you need.
This method however is slightly flawed in execution beyond theorycrafting online characters mainly due to the fact that in most home games (at least the ones I run and the ones I play in) the DM adjusts the average AC of enemies based on the party. If this method held true, you would never need to get your attack bonus for your lowest attack below a 22 because the status quo established only requires that meaning in practice the highest attack roll you will ever need is a 37.
The actual usage and validity of DPR I have found to be more important on the DM side of things when designing encounters to determine how strong to make the bad guys. The real downside to using it is that if you become too comfortable with it, all your encounters end up getting trashed once the players hit the goalpost.
Okay, so let me just make sure I'm doing this right.
If I have a +6 to hit, my...
No
95%85%( 3 misses out of 20 since 4 Will hit)
60%( 9 Will hit so 12 hits out of 20)
45%( 12 and up Will hit that is 9 out of 20)
35%( only 2 worse than the one above)
10%( 19 and 20 Will hit)

wraithstrike |

Justin Sane wrote:I've been using this for a while now.I do too, it works pretty well!
This is the one I use also. I have modified it for furious focus, medusa's wrath, and one more thing which I can't remember, but they are all on different sheets. I keep telling myself that I will combine them, but I have not had the motivation to do it yet.

wraithstrike |

For the crit you have to factor your chance to crit, and use the math for determining the DPR formula normally. It is similar to the formula I used for medusa's wrath.
As an exanple if you have a 10.4% chance to crit and confirm, then you multiply that by the DPR for your first attack.
Your chance to hit is normally which is C in the formula will still be calulated the same way even if you can't miss on 1.
You are not likely to get all 10 of those AoO's off in one round so that won't matter much unless you want to try to figure it out for a fight that is 10 rounds are longer.

wraithstrike |

So let's say I'm level 20, +37 to hit, 1d4+41 damage, 7 attacks (all +37 to hit), and when I crit (I auto crit and deal maximum weapon damage) plus 16d6 sneak attack. I can make an additional attack. The character is mythic so I don't know what the average AC is for a CR 20 mythic enemy.
A CR 20 monster should have about the same AC no matter if it is mythic or not.
What is your crit range?

![]() |

As stated previously the most important thing is to keep in mind the assumptions made when calculating DPR and the fact average statistics works well really only over a large, better still infinite, number of stochastic rolls. Very rarely do we roll an infinite number of attacks in a gaming evening unfortunately.
The outcome of squeezing a few more DPR out of your character is ultimately an exercise in theory-crafting and will unlikely result in massive awesomeness at the table.
Still sometimes fun to live in the world of averages.
Actually on that does any one just play 'averages'? Would actually speed up the combat.
S.

Akerlof |
As stated previously the most important thing is to keep in mind the assumptions made when calculating DPR and the fact average statistics works well really only over a large, better still infinite, number of stochastic rolls. Very rarely do we roll an infinite number of attacks in a gaming evening unfortunately.
The outcome of squeezing a few more DPR out of your character is ultimately an exercise in theory-crafting and will unlikely result in massive awesomeness at the table.
Still sometimes fun to live in the world of averages.
Actually on that does any one just play 'averages'? Would actually speed up the combat.
S.
That's why I take the next step and divide the median creature's hit points by my calculated DPR, giving me the expected number of rounds it takes to kill it.
If # rounds = something like 2.5, I can expect to kill something of that CR in 3 rounds, almost all the time. It _might_ change by +/- 1 round on a really bad or good day, but most of the time it will take me three rounds.
If it's something like 1.9 to 2.05, then I'm looking in the 2-3 round range. 3 rounds is still a good amount of time to bank on, but it doesn't need to be a _really_ good set of rolls, just an above average set of rolls to take it out in 2 rounds.
Looking at the number of rounds it takes to kill something really gives you perspective on those DPR numbers. A 10-20% change in DPR seldom means you actually kill the monster faster or slower, though the higher DPR acts like insurance against an occasional bad roll.
And of course, the higher level you are, the more consistent this will be. At low levels when you only have 1 attack and a pretty high chance of missing, you've got too much variability to estimate: For example, if you have a 50/50 chance of hitting a monster and automatically 1 shot it, you're still looking at whiffing 3 times in a row 10% of the time, which is pretty darn common.
If you want to get an even better idea of how much DPR you'll actually see in play, calculate it would take to kill an enemy if you rolled a 5 on the attack and minimum damage, then do the same for rolling a 15 on the attack and doing max damage. The majority of your fights should be in that time range, and beyond the first couple levels, that range probably won't be much more than 1 round difference.

Coriat |

Akerlof, that post reads like a textbook in how to misinterpret DPR. Some thoughts:
a) DPR is a measure of the damage you output, rather than the damage your foe suffers. A lot of things can modify this. The one you will start encountering the earliest and most often is typically damage reduction.
b) DPR, as typically calculated, measures damage per full attack. It is not an actual 'per round' statistic, despite the name. Any round in which you fail to achieve a full attack makes a big difference. The more so the higher level you are, making DPR that much less reliable at higher levels.
Some notes (from my game) on how much divergence this can cause at higher levels.
c) And to refine the previous statement, DPR could be defined more accurately as "damage per full attack in perfect circumstances." Concealment? Mirror Image? Any non-AC defense whatsoever, pretty much? All pull the actual average down from the DPR. Non-AC defenses become much more prolific as you reach higher levels.
Because DPR does not consider any form of defense other than AC and hit points, it becomes a less reliable guide to performance, the higher level the game.

Akerlof |
Akerlof, that post reads like a textbook in how to misinterpret DPR. Some thoughts:
a) DPR is a measure of the damage you output, rather than the damage your foe suffers. A lot of things can modify this. The one you will start encountering the earliest and most often is typically damage reduction.
b) DPR, as typically calculated, measures damage per full attack. It is not an actual 'per round' statistic, despite the name. Any round in which you fail to achieve a full attack makes a big difference. The more so the higher level you are, making DPR that much less reliable at higher levels.
Some notes (from my game) on how much divergence this can cause at higher levels.
c) And to refine the previous statement, DPR could be defined more accurately as "damage per full attack in perfect circumstances." Concealment? Mirror Image? Any non-AC defense whatsoever, pretty much? All pull the actual average down from the DPR. Non-AC defenses become much more prolific as you reach higher levels.
Because DPR does not consider any form of defense other than AC and hit points, it becomes a less reliable guide to performance, the higher level the game.
Like any single statistic, DPR is very limited in what it can tell you and the circumstances where it really works are very specific. Calculating it is a science, understanding what it means and applying it is an art.
That's why I like to convert to rounds to kill.
a.) Yes, there are a ton of different things that can modify how much damage your target actually takes. However, if you have an estimate of how long you can expect to take killing an enemy in ideal circumstances, you can get a rough estimate of how long it will take to kill this enemy in these circumstances: If I'm right at the cusp between two and three rounding an enemy, and my damage is getting reduced by 10 or 20%, then I can still expect to kill the enemy in three rounds. If I'm in the middle or upper three round territory, or my damage is getting reduced by 40% or more, then I'm looking at 4-6 rounds more realistically, and can adjust tactics based on that. ("Hey, why don't we burn some of those limited spells this time, cause this guy looks like he'll be around long enough to be dangerous?")
b.) Absolutely true and something I keep very much in mind. DPR doesn't tell me much about what will happen during the positioning, maneuvering, magical dueling, etc. phases of the fight. Most fights do generally end up toe to toe with a full attack happening, and that's the part where DPR comes into play. If that never happens, DPR numbers never come into play. This isn't WoW, I'm not going to get chewed out by my party because my fighter wasn't doing damage while the Wizard and Cleric took care of the Prismatic Sphere, Wall of Force and Wall of Iron. What matters is an estimate of how long it will take to take the enemy down once I get a chance to really try. It also gives me an idea of whether or not I even want to bring the fight to the point where I'm toe to toe full attacking, it might just be a much better idea to keep some distance and whittle him down or control the heck out of him so he never gets a chance to hurt me.
c.) Yeah, this is the tie in between a.) and b.): If I have a rough idea how long (really, how many full attacks) it will take to kill an enemy, I can better evaluate how effective his defenses are and whether or not we need to adjust our tactics.
DPR is not about thinking "I do 114.264 damage per round, therefore on any given round I can expect to hit the bad guy for 114 damage!" It's about understanding "I'm about 50/50 on killing an enemy of this level in two or three rounds. His defenses are reducing my effectiveness by about 20%, so I should still be able to take him down in 3 rounds." Or "It takes me a solid 3 full attacks to kill this kind of monster, and now he's got Mirror Image up. That'll extend the fight by at least 1 round, more likely 2 or 3 and he can step on my like a bug if he can have his way with me for 3 rounds. Better pull back, make him come to me, and let the Wizard know that now might be a REALLY good time to cast one of this big, flashy 'Easy Button' spells."