So my rogue friend said he did this in a PFS game back east. So my rogue/fighter friend said he grappled a dragon and pinned its wings so it could not fly.
Can we do a breakdown here?
What would need to be done to accomplish this feat? Lets assume a few things beforehand.....
rogue/fighter 4/4.
Str, 16
Dex 18
I think he had improved grapple. I am not sure of his CMB or CMD.
I have no stats on dragon. For the sake of this inquiry lets say its 'level' appropriate, CR 9 Lets make it a red dragon.
Is this allowable? What AoO would he take and how would you run this attempt?
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grapple rules . There is also a nice flow chart next to it.
Basically beat it's CMD (and AoO if you dont have improved grapple), survive it's turn where it can full attack you, beat it's CMD again but you have a bonus.
Ok, its possible. I would take it as not likely but it is a possibility.
Now, since the character in question is supposedly 'on the back' will this situation prevent our Dragon from using full attack and bringing to bear his claws, bite, wing buffet and tail?
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Ok, its possible. I would take it as not likely but it is a possibility.
Now, since the character in question is supposedly 'on the back' will this situation prevent our Dragon from using full attack and bringing to bear his claws, bite, wing buffet and tail?
That'd be more of a houserule kind of thing since there isn't "facing" in the game really. In the event of that houserule, do what makes the most sense. I don't think the rules can help you with that one.
Thanks all for the information. I see now there are more grapple/large critter questions. Great to see the answers!
Saying that he 'pinned' it's wings is just flavor, just by succeeding at the first grapple would prevent it from flying.
Now, since the character in question is supposedly 'on the back' will this situation prevent our Dragon from using full attack and bringing to bear his claws, bite, wing buffet and tail?
Just to be clear, the dragon would get its full range of attacks but they would all be at -2 to hit under normal circumstances. So the dragon would be able to attack with all of its claws, bite, wing, etc...
If the grapplee attacks the grappler the AC penalty from the grappled condition basically negates the attack penalty.
If the grapplee attacks the grappler the AC penalty from the grappled condition basically negates the attack penalty.
True but to keep the rules straight I always have both individuals take the -4 penalty to AC and the -2 to hit. There are some classes/archetypes like the Tetori Monk that ignore those so I still want every to apply them were required or else the math can get funky.
It's -4 to dex (Which is a minus 2 to AC).
It's -4 to dex (Which is a minus 2 to AC).
Sorry, too quick at typing without proofreading and I typed AC instead of Dexterity. I have a Half-Orc Monk Tetori so not only do I have the Grapple rules comited to memory but a copy of them by me for reference for the DM and others.
Saying that he 'pinned' it's wings is just flavor, just by succeeding at the first grapple would prevent it from flying.
Grappled condition prevents movement, including fly speed, but technically doesn't prevent using Fly to Hover, as that isn't moving anywhere. Grappled penalty to DEX does affect Fly skill though. Regardless, I believe it would not fall IMMEDIATELY, but only at the end of it's turn if it did not make a Fly check to Hover.
True, it could still technically be flying and would definately come into play if the grappler also had the capability to fly.
Regardless it's not flying away until it breaks the grapple :)
Indeed, there is no facing. If you grapple and adjacent creature, you don't even leave your square (unlike in previous editions where grapplers shared the same space). Therefore, it is unlikely that the rogue/fighter would be on the dragon's back if he began the grapple from the ground.
Now, if he jumped at the dragon from above...
I'd allow a dragon that merely grappled to stay airborne (barring odd circumstances, like it being a small dragon and he was heavy).
If he actually PINNED the the dragon though - then yeah, he successfully the pretzelled the bugger, and they're falling.