|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've been working on this grand idea of reducing the 6 stats down to 4. Partially because it helps fix the SAD vs. MAD issue, but mostly because I think I can mostly eliminate dump stats by making every stat important to every character, at least to some degree.
For those "TL;DR" people, the base concept is that constitution gets rolled into strength, wisdom gets rolled into int, to hit lives in dexterity, will saves come from charisma, and charisma grants a fancy new 1/day ability.
Expanded below:
Strength: Adds bonus damage to melee and thrown attacks (and composite bows built for it), adds its modifier to fortitude saves, gives bonus hit points equal to the modifier times hit dice, adds its modifier to CMB and CMD, determines carrying capacity, and applies to the skills [climb, intimidate, ride, swim]. Anything that would apply to constitution applies to strength instead, and anything not mentioned that is based on constitution is based on strength instead.
Dexterity: Adds its modifier to all rolls to hit, adds its modifier to AC, adds it's modifier to reflex saves, adds its modifier to CMD, and applies to the skills [acrobatics, escape artist, fly, slight of hand, stealth].
Intelligence: Used for all prepared casting (except paladins), adds its modifier to skill points gained each level, adds its modifier to initiative bonus, grants bonus languages at character creation equal to its modifier, and applies to all skills not listed for another stat (over half). Anything that would apply to wisdom applies to intelligence instead, and anything not mentioned that is based on wisdom is based on intelligence instead.
Charisma: Used for all spontaneous casting, adds its modifier to will saves, and applies to the skills [bluff, diplomacy, disguise, handle animal, perform, sense motive, use magic device]. Once per day a character may add his or her charisma modifier to any d20 roll. He or she must declare the use of this ability before the roll is made.
Thoughts? Comments? The charisma 1/day ability specifically is a completely new mechanic, so it may be underpowered, overpowered, or unnecessary.
+50 XP if you playtest this and post results!
Oh man, that's a big change...Gut reactions:
Not a fan of constitution being rolled into strength. I like everyone to be able to get high hit points if they want them, but being super strong isn't thematic for a lot of characters
Wisdom being split between charisma and intelligence is not as much of problem for me. However, if this were the case, I'd rather charisma be used for all divine casters rather than intelligence. At least at a first glance. Also, cha does still seem a bit underpowered. I'd bump up the number of times per day.
I'll have to think about this more...
|
|
Maybe 3/day? I'm trying to leverage a sort of "luck" ability from charisma with this. Specifically, it has to be something that scales with the modifier. Might be ok leaving it as 1/day if all divine casting is charisma based (see below).
Moving divine casting to charisma is an option, and ultimately the reason I moved all prepared to intelligence was that wisdom was mostly rolled into intelligence, and the standard of "charisma for spontaneous, intelligence and wisdom for prepared" was already in place. Specifically for clerics, I can definitely see using charisma, and maybe for druids too. I feel that rangers should cast off of intelligence for some reason though. Maybe it's just for skill synergy.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is the intention for this to only effect PCs? How will this reconcile with monsters? Will oozes now have a horrible to-hit because they also have basically no dexterity? Will animals have a horrible penalty on Init checks because they aren't Intelligent?
Also, how do you plan to have racial stat bonuses effect this? The majority of +2 to 2 stats and -2 to one?
How to you plan for this to interact with point buy? What new point buys will equal the old point buy?
Not saying there is something wrong with this. But if you're actually asking people to playtest this, you need to put forward some much broader design assumptions.
Make it Body, Agility, Mins and Charisma. Also make a new d20, original, D20 system while you are at it. Because this will cause a whole lot of changes...
|
|
Other than eliminating dump stats, what are your reasons?
All the statistics are important, each one has a role. Sure some stats play less of a role for some classes than they do for others. I am also amazed how many people will reduce two abilities to seven just to get that one more bonus on another stat. Then again I dislike a negative stat modifier period, and refuse to lower any stat below ten. I prefer a minimum stat of twelve, but that leaves me little to work with for my primary stat, and secondary stats. Thus I often end up with a character that has mediocre stats, and I have to get creative to become effective, especially in a party of min/maxers who optimize their builds, and the gamemaster does not capitalize, or is unaware of their weaknesses. Then again it is often where the min/maxers are weak when I get my chance to shine. I often plug up all the parties weak spots.
I ask you this too, are your players having fun? If so great, whatever you guys are doing is working.
Luck is typically represented in the game by dice rolls. They are the randomized quotient of luck. Now if you want luck to always favor your players, by giving them more than just a random roll, there are different methods you can use to do this.
1.) Add a luck statistic
2.) Allow Action, or Hero Points to allow a re-roll, or allow additional dice to be rolled and added to the result. (Which I think is already an in-game mechanic).
3.) Roll a separate roll at the same time, and allow the player to chose his, or your result before declaring the outcome.
4.) Assign luck points for good ideas, good roleplaying etc, that can later be used to alter results.
There are other methods that could be implemented as well. However if you are set on reducing to four stats, go ahead. Like others have posted though this will greatly effect other changes in your game as well.
|
|
Is the intention for this to only effect PCs? How will this reconcile with monsters? Will oozes now have a horrible to-hit because they also have basically no dexterity? Will animals have a horrible penalty on Init checks because they aren't Intelligent?
Also, how do you plan to have racial stat bonuses effect this? The majority of +2 to 2 stats and -2 to one?
How to you plan for this to interact with point buy? What new point buys will equal the old point buy?
Not saying there is something wrong with this. But if you're actually asking people to playtest this, you need to put forward some much broader design assumptions.
Starting here, since I think this is a pretty straightforward set of questions.
The intention is for this to affect the entire gamesystem, though for playtesting purposes I would only apply this to PCs and NPCs (creatures with no racial HD). Regarding applying it to monsters, I'm of the opinion that monsters (racial HD creatures) don't have to, and really shouldn't, follow exactly the same set of rules as PCs and NPCs. I would probably just start adding bonuses and penalties where needed to get the flavor of the creature right. Oozes I wouldn't fix; let them be slow and easy to dodge, though maybe bump their str up since str and con are easily their two highest stats. I would give animals an initiative bonus as a matter of being of the animal type, probably a +4. Other low int creatures would likely remain unchanged.
For the most part, racial stat bonuses will remain the same, and follow the stat combining guidelines (con goes to str, wis goes to int). If the race gets two that are now the same, add them together. As an example, gnomes would just get a +2 to charisma. I think that's the only core race example, and the long-term goal would be to redistribute stat modifiers from race. Maybe gnomes get +2 str, +2 cha, and -2 dex.
Point buy would be the same I imagine, since the sum-total value of all the stats is the same as with 6 stats. While I believe standard 6-stat point buy is designed with the assumption of dump stats, this change intentionally penalizes dump stats more, so there would be fewer "free points", so to speak, even as there were fewer stats to spend the points on. Of course, a rolled-stat system works the same.
Because this will cause a whole lot of changes...
Actually, this is a relatively unintrusive rule.
All the parameters of the game are respected, stats still grant a bonus (in the same range), all other components of the game are left intact (a fort save is still a fort save, rolled in the same situations, under the same conditions, only the source of the ability bonus is different, etc)
What it does change beyond the initial character creation is stat-boosting spells (need to eliminate two, possibly re-name the four others) and items. Poisons and disease need a tweak but changes are very intuitive based on the parameters given in the OP.
Something needs to be done for a few key spells (like ray of enfeeblement which gains a lot in lethality), and monstrous ability-drain attacks will be slightly more powerful since some will affect two (former) stats.
Otherwise, we're far from a total re-write.
So depending on how this is implemented, the problem of MAD classes is either alleviated or made worse; dump-stats are affecting your character more than ever.
|
|
Other than eliminating dump stats, what are your reasons?
All the statistics are important, each one has a role. Sure some stats play less of a role for some classes than they do for others. I am also amazed how many people will reduce two abilities to seven just to get that one more bonus on another stat. Then again I dislike a negative stat modifier period, and refuse to lower any stat below ten. I prefer a minimum stat of twelve, but that leaves me little to work with for my primary stat, and secondary stats. Thus I often end up with a character that has mediocre stats, and I have to get creative to become effective, especially in a party of min/maxers who optimize their builds, and the gamemaster does not capitalize, or is unaware of their weaknesses. Then again it is often where the min/maxers are weak when I get my chance to shine. I often plug up all the parties weak spots.
I ask you this too, are your players having fun? If so great, whatever you guys are doing is working.
Luck is typically represented in the game by dice rolls. They are the randomized quotient of luck. Now if you want luck to always favor your players, by giving them more than just a random roll, there are different methods you can use to do this.
1.) Add a luck statistic
2.) Allow Action, or Hero Points to allow a re-roll, or allow additional dice to be rolled and added to the result. (Which I think is already an in-game mechanic).
3.) Roll a separate roll at the same time, and allow the player to chose his, or your result before declaring the outcome.
4.) Assign luck points for good ideas, good roleplaying etc, that can later be used to alter results.There are other methods that could be implemented as well. However if you are set on reducing to four stats, go ahead. Like others have posted though this will greatly effect other changes in your game as well.
I feel like the game has the 6 stats it does to try to describe a character, but fails to have enough universally useful mechanics to go around, resulting in dump stats. As stated, in addition to eliminating dump stats (probably my main reason for the idea), the gap between SAD classes and MAD classes should close (though I'm not sure). Additionally, it seems hard to separate intelligence from wisdom and strength from constitution. They can clearly be different, as evidenced by the current system, though they have always, at least to me, seemed linked. That linked state has made it hard to completely separate the two. An exceptionally strong guy being very fragile and sickly just doesn't make sense to me. Your warrior has a strength of 18 and a constitution of 8? What does that even mean? How did you get so strong while being so out of shape?
I have not yet playtested this, which is part of this tread. I want to know of any obvious problems that I've overlooked before I try to use it in a real game. If it's terrible from day one, it's not likely to be revisited, even after it's been fixed.
Adding the concept of luck to charisma is to help balance out that stat. Even after the reduction to 4 stats, the only universally useful thing charisma had was will saves. I also like the concept that your character can be so likeable and forceful of personality that the universe listens to your desires, sort of like how sorcerers work.
I realize this is a very major change, though I think it can be introduced at least a bit at a time. Start with PCs using these rules, make GM calls as you have to, and write them down as additions to the rules. It'd probably be easiest to try this out in a game where most adversaries are other class-based creatures.
|
|
@Laurefindel: Specifically addressing the ability damage/drain problem, I had thought that all abilities that do ability damage/drain should have the die used reduced a step. I didn't include it in the original post since it was a bit too much of a side note. Ray of enfeeblement would probably just turn into a penalty to hit and damage. I realize there will be many calls like this that would have to be made, especially with spells. I do think, like you said, it should be fairly unintrusive, as long as the GM is willing and able to make calls on things that come up during play.
My thoughts on casting stats:
Bard: charisma
Cleric: charisma
Druid: charisma
Paladin: charisma
Ranger: intelligence
Sorcerer: charisma
Wizard: intelligence
Alchemist: intelligence
Inquisitor: intelligence
Oracle: charisma
Summoner: charisma
Witch: intelligence
Magus: intelligence
|
|
Your warrior has a strength of 18 and a constitution of 8? What does that even mean? How did you get so strong while being so out of shape?
This is where the term "Glass Jaw Joe" comes in referring to boxers who could pack a punch, and maybe even dart around nimbly. However only for the first three rounds, and if they took a solid hit from their opponent they were down. Constitution also reflects endurance, and staying power, not just strength, or power of blows.
Just saying it can happen.
I do think you can reduce dump stats with this method, and by all means give it a try. Only one way to be sure something works or doesn't, give it the "fry test", plug it in and see if it buzzes or sparks.
Personally I have done this before, and was not happy with the result. It felt like it lacked depth. I have also seen games run on two stats: Body and Mind. Sounds like you have given it thought, I say give it a whirl with some friends see how it works for you.