How old are your players lol? 14? Jesus. The only time a GM ever asks to see my character sheet is for little stuff, like a save total so he can roll for scrying or some such. I don't think I've ever had a GM have me send him my character sheet to proof read. I'm an adult, I've got it thanks lol.Sorry, not trying to be a dick. I just find it comical.
No, you're right. That's how it should be. Sadly, I have rampant cheating in the group from at least two players. Which is why I have to audit the character sheets so thoroughly. They tend to change from level to level, when resources aren't tracked and when new stats spontaneously appear.
In general, I like to have the full character sheet on file so I can do exactly what you just described. Saving throws and skill checks (I roll monster knowledge skill checks before a session to speed up handouts), and roll perception checks sometimes without telling the players so they don't know something's up.
Oh, and, we have a bit of a range. Three at 22, two at 27, one at 30.
MattR1986: Yeah, that's what I really want to do. But at the same time, he's trying, or at least appearing like he's trying, and I'm worried that constantly just rejecting his efforts will just make him petulant and self destructive (and game-destructive). Darned if you do, darned if you don't, I guess.
Plus the stress is killing me.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No, you are all incorrect on how to solve the problem.
Let me tell you how to solve the problem.
Step 1: When game time starts, just start the game. There is no time to update a character, just say it must be played the way it is, and quickly move on in the game.
Step 2: Create a very difficult encounter that kills the player.
Step 3: Inform the player that the difficult encounter was designed to be overcome by a leveled up character, and you assumed he would have his character ready to go at the beginning of the game. Tell him he can spend the next hour or two making a new character, since that's the time it normally took anyway.
Repeat this as necessary for every player that isn't prepared.
It solves the problem pretty quickly.
As realistically true as that would be if I were playing with adults that weren't petulant and vindictive, in the absence of that audience, this will, sadly, do nothing but make them mad and cause more stress, frustration, and anger.
: \
Between the rampant cheating, lack of trust, and lack of respect of your time, maybe just end the game? Maybe it's super fun when you actually play, I don't know, but if it were my group and I had to put up with the issues you put up with, I'd find something else to do with them. Preferably something they couldn't cheat at. No gaming is better than bad gaming, et cetera.
Failing that, just start the game about 3 hours earlier than normal, herd them into a room where they can make their characters and chat, and then ignore them and do whatever you were going to do anyway.
My old group was a bit like that.
Said I wasn't putting up with it because it was unfun for me. I stopped playing/GMing and went to the pub instead.
After six months later they decided that they missed playing, apologised and everything sorted itself out.
We now have happy shiny players/GM
Set up some sort of small online community for the game, and let the players know that involvement in it is critical to being part of your campaign.
Then use it to network all this s~@+, get things straightened out, coordinate everything, hand out information, and just enrich the game overall.
We have a wiki for just this purpose, and use it quite effectively.
Between the rampant cheating, lack of trust, and lack of respect of your time, maybe just end the game?
I've seriously considered it...
Maybe it's super fun when you actually play, I don't know, but if it were my group and I had to put up with the issues you put up with, I'd find something else to do with them. Preferably something they couldn't cheat at. No gaming is better than bad gaming, et cetera.
It is still fun. Usually. Just some days are bad.
There's no game where cheating can't occur, though. It's just a bad mindset some of the players have.
Failing that, just start the game about 3 hours earlier than normal, herd them into a room where they can make their characters and chat, and then ignore them and do whatever you were going to do anyway.
Sadly, starting earlier isn't an option due to conflicting schedules.
If they're mostly just your players and not old friends, you could always replace them. If your area sucks, look online.
With a couple of cheaters, when I said "something else", I didn't mean games. Have a chili cookoff and marathon superhero movies. Whatever strikes your peculiar fancy.
Or step down from the GM chair. Make one of them take over the unnecessarily heavy burden. Bonus points if you show up to the sessions late, just in time to get started playing. No hard feelings, no abrupt endings, just a little change in roles.
I had/have the same problem. Players that show up to be entertained for the session then do not pick up their character sheets until next game. No thoughts of planning or how to do things. Then it turns into a bogged down session with tactic planning which could have easily been done out of game in emails.
It is sad when people will dedicate a day a week to play but the game isnt worth puttin out of game time into.
We just start playing, and if your character isn't built by the time the first fight starts, your character stands in the back until you're finished.
There are a lot of posts here so this may get drowned out. But hey here is how I deal with it......
.....I don't.......
My game days and times are always the same on a schedule. So if you do not have the character sheet done by the time the game is starting. You play with your last known good character sheet. If that means a lvl behind your fault. If that means 3 lvls behind so be it.
After lvling or creating I expect my players to send me a copy via Email. This allows me to keep a backup copy of them for many purposes. I look them over to confirm everything is OK and not horribly done wrong, either in the favor of the DM or player. (at this point in play my players don't need me to correct anything)
If the lazy player does not lvl his character sheet for multiple sessions eventually he will be out lvled by the enemies and either killed off or his fun lvl will be diminished. If his heart is not at the table, I don't want his body at the table.
If they're mostly just your players and not old friends, you could always replace them. If your area sucks, look online.
Friends, sadly. And I've spent a lot of effort searching for other people in my area, and there aren't any other games of quality going on.
With a couple of cheaters, when I said "something else", I didn't mean games. Have a chili cookoff and marathon superhero movies. Whatever strikes your peculiar fancy.
Ah, I see. Not a bad idea. I hate rejecting your every suggestion, because they're generally quite good, but that doesn't work for me. I, unlike some of the others, honestly want to play. I get the one free day a week, and I don't want to spend it watching movies, heh.
Or step down from the GM chair. Make one of them take over the unnecessarily heavy burden. Bonus points if you show up to the sessions late, just in time to get started playing. No hard feelings, no abrupt endings, just a little change in roles.
We've...tried that before. It doesn't work. It was, in fact, horrendous. I've only ever seen one campaign more farcical than the one I bore witness to in my life. It was a literal travesty.
I've had similar problems (attendance, cheating, lack of responsibility) to varying degrees in different groups. This will sound harsh, but it worked for me: Find different players who share your style of gaming.
This is what I sometimes wish I could do. The best, most fun, most intriguing games I ever played were with a small group of like minded individuals. Fantastic gameplay. I was always sad when those sessions came to an end.
It looks to me like you aren't having fun because you are being turned into a baby sitter (been there myself).
Heh, the exact words I often use when complaining about it. ><
If you players are friends, great - hang out with them, just don't play Pathfinder together. Don't lower your gaming standards because you think you can't find other players. You deserve to game with people who have a similar level of dedication and responsibility that you have. Trying to change your players beyond what you've done already is just inflicting pain on yourself and them. It is pretty clear, many of them want to game one way (nothing wrong with that) and you want to game another way.
Wow. The way you phrase this reminds me of relationship advice I give out. And that really, seriously makes me think. You may be right. Quitting may honestly just be the best idea. I have what I consider to be a grand story in a grand world, and it's just...not being used, nor appreciated. In a lot of ways I would be better off spending my time working on my world for a future campaign than just settling for this one. Wow. Something worth really thinking about.
Thank you.
Have you tried playing PFS as a way to find players? Many of the issues you are raising are simply not tolerated in PFS play - the players you will find there are used to playing by the rules, being prepared, etc.
I've had some fun playing with PFS, but it was very much...a beer and pretzels kind of setting. PFS is fine, and I get why a lot of people like it, but it's not the kind of game I enjoy. I like gritty and hardcore, and I really dislike Golarion, so PFS doesn't sit well with me. I love that it exists, since it gives Paizo an outlet for generating revenue without creating even more splatbooks (though they seem to still want to do that), which aided in a lot of the bleh from 3.5, but I don't really like it, myself. Nearest PFS game is 3 hours away, though. Yes, I was desperate enough to try it a half dozen times. xD
The prep issue can be solved by "hazzling" your players to get their s*~! together before the game.
When i DM i generally keep my players informed and myself committed, I play weekly and 1-2 days before a session I like to call players to see if theyll attend and to fish for hidden problems like "Oh and have you completed the level from last session?".
I know this may not be a preferred idea for you Brogue, but I might recommend looking for games online (on sites like app.roll20.com).
I've been relying on it for play for a while now. I enjoy it, though I know it isnt what everyone wants. I've been lucky to find a decent group, though quality can vary significantly.
Best of luck man.
Also, if your players are slow to start due to idle chat just ask them to get into the game.
I was a player in my last session and it took the group a damned 3 hours to start because of idle chatter about a videogame and then the consumption of dinner foodstuffs. Also because we play slightly slowly sometimes we only got one combat encouter in and hardly any non-combat roleplay aside from thanking our employer and reciving payment.
Note that taking 30 minutes to an hour to get into the game is just normal, roleplaying is a social thing and it will take even the best of friends a few minutes to share the weekly chatter with each other, once thats all out of the way youll get to play.
Any more then 30 minutes however is abnormal considering that people showed up at that gaming table to play a game of pathfinder, so 30 minutes into the session you should make a little noise about starting to play. Taking more then one hour to start is just silly, at that point make a point and ask people directly to stop wasting time.
if somone doesnt have a chaarcter completed at the start of the session and everyone else is ready, you need to get right on that if you're the DM and it would be really cool if you did it even if youre just a player. if the character isnt ready because of lazyness just tell them good builds and give them straight and effective advice, push theyr character alalong untill its ready, if the end result is something they arent happy with they should just have known better than come unprepared to the game. The same applies for players spoilt by choise, if theire indecisive and really want "the perfect character" tell them that once the players have gathered to start to play that its just WAy to late to be so picky.
There are a lot of posts here so this may get drowned out. But hey here is how I deal with it......
I've read, and will read, all the posts, though I may not respond to them all due to the walls of text. ;)
Good points, though, and more to think on. I really do consider everything I've heard in the thread.
The prep issue can be solved by "hazzling" your players to get their s!%~ together before the game.
I am seeing that a lot of my problems come from some players and their essential refusal to communicate. Or the difficulty in forcing them to do so. : \
Thank you, Williamoak. It's something I've considered, and I don't mind it, but I find play a little slower-paced than I prefer. Maybe once this group falls through I'll look into it.
Also, if your players are slow to start due to idle chat just ask them to get into the game.
We have a set of rules that govern this issue. The rules were created because they eventually became NECESSARY as people were showing up two hours late and not calling, not showing up at all, leaving during sessions, et cetera.
We agree to meet at time X. Play starts at X +30 minutes. We take turns bringing dinner each week, and socialize and eat during that period. At X+30, we play. Every hour we take a 2-5 minute break away from table to people can do whatever they want, so our playtime is more focused.
if somone doesnt have a chaarcter completed at the start of the session and everyone else is ready, you need to get right on that if you're the DM and it would be really cool if you did it even if youre just a player.
I actually really wish I had player support on this. When I get on peoples' cases about it as a DM, I'm just The Man putting down The Little Guy, the authority figure ordering people around. People really shut up when their peer tells them to clue in.
if the character isnt ready because of lazyness just tell them good builds and give them straight and effective advice, push theyr character alalong untill its ready, if the end result is something they arent happy with they should just have known better than come unprepared to the game. The same applies for players spoilt by choise, if theire indecisive and really want "the perfect character" tell them that once the players have gathered to start to play that its just WAy to lateto be so picky.
That's a lot of work for me, though. I'm effectively building all these extra characters for these people. That's a lot to do on top of GMing.
Interestingly, this is exactly the same analogy I had separately come to. xD